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Breeding rights? AKC and ABCA


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Hello I have a female border collie and we absolutely just love her to death! So much that were looking to buy a male and let them mate some day. I was talking with this lady about picking up her male in a couple days and had mentioned that we would like to mate them one day. She said if I wanted breeding rights that would cost me another $700 on top of the $800 that were buying him for and said if they did have puppies that I would not be able to register them. He's registered with AKC and my female is with ABCA I don't plan on breeding them to sell and make money we just want some puppies and a friend wanted one whenever it happened but I'd still like to have them registered just because. I really don't care about registering them with AKC I'd rather do it with ABCA but now I'm wondering would I be able to read register the male to ABCA and be able to register the pups as well or would I get in trouble? We really just want to keep a couple pups for ourselves depending on how many she actually has might have to give a couple away besides the one we already are. Thanks for any help!

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Hi there and welcome to the boards!

A couple things to know about this forum.

One, this forum is not in favor of supporting the AKC in any way. You can read more about this here: "Read This First." This forum supports breeding for working abilities and not just as pets. The main reason: AKC breeding does not put the original working qualities first. Too many AKC dogs have very little if any real working ability because they have not been bred for it. Instead, they are bred for looks, for sports and for pets. A border collie's working instinct is not automatic and if care is not given in their breeding, that instinct becomes diluted and weak. In a few generations, all that's left is a fluffy black-and-white dog that only peripherally resembles its working ancestors.

Two, I don't know how it is with the AKC, but puppies of an AKC sire and an ABCA female would NOT be eligible for registry with the ABCA - unless each pup grew up to each earn their own Registry of Merit, or ROM, from the ABCA. Only puppies from ABCA or ISDS parents may be registered with ABCA.

Three, are you planning on breeding them once and then spaying or neutering one or both of them? Because since the female can come into heat every 6 months or so, this means you'll have to deal with securely separating them for 3 weeks, twice a year, or risk accidental breeding and unplanned litter of puppies.

Four ... loving your dog and wanting a couple puppies is not a good reason to breed. As this forum is geared towards the working dog, we tend to view the considerations before breeding as deeply important. A question to ask yourself is, what would this breeding have to offer the border collie breed? Are you creating quality dogs? Are you giving due consideration to how the sire and dam may compliment each other, whether physically or in temperament, as well as working ability?

Also, there are other considerations. Are you prepared to undergo due health checks? Will you make sure both the sire and dam are tested for Collie Eye Anomaly (CEA) and will you make sure they get their hips x-rayed and have them given an OFA rating for structural soundness? Are you willing to research whether there are any instances of early onset deafness, hip dysplasia, epilepsy or other inheritable problems in either of the family lines?

Have you ever bred dogs before? Will you do x-rays early on to get an idea how many pups she may be carrying, and then do an ultrasound later on to assure all is still going well? Do you have plans for a whelping box and later a larger safe area for the puppies to play, sleep and grow in for 8 weeks? Do you understand the potential complications of whelping puppies? Are you prepared to take your girl in for a C-section if a pup gets stuck in the birth canal - even if it's 11 o'clock at night and she's already given birth to 3 or 4? Are you prepared to lose sleep due to noisy baby puppies, and also make sure the mother feeds her babies often enough, and that she also gets enough nutrition? Then are you willing to deal with all the daily clean up, mess and feeding until the puppies are 8 weeks old? Because believe me, nothing can create stink like a litter of pooping, peeing, heartily eating little puppies. :ph34r:

Plus, border collies typically have litters of 6 to 8, and it's not uncommon for them to have litters of 9 or 10. Are you able to find homes for all these puppies and do so in a responsible, thoughtful way? I don't mean giving them away to whoever thinks they're cute, but rather vetting each prospective family to make sure it's the best match possible for a puppy that will grow up to be a busy, intelligent, active dog.

If you think I'm trying to talk you out of breeding your girl, you're right. Unless you have a specific purpose for breeding, there's really no reason to put more border collies out in the world. It's a lot of work, a lot of worry and a lot of responsibility to create those precious little lives. Loving your dog is not reason enough. Border collies should be bred for continuing the best qualities of the working dog, not simply because someone loves their fluffy friend.

Please take this in the helpful vein I intend it.
Respectfully,

Gloria

 

 

Hello I have a female border collie and we absolutely just love her to death! So much that were looking to buy a male and let them mate some day. I was talking with this lady about picking up her male in a couple days and had mentioned that we would like to mate them one day. She said if I wanted breeding rights that would cost me another $700 on top of the $800 that were buying him for and said if they did have puppies that I would not be able to register them. He's registered with AKC and my female is with ABCA I don't plan on breeding them to sell and make money we just want some puppies and a friend wanted one whenever it happened but I'd still like to have them registered just because. I really don't care about registering them with AKC I'd rather do it with ABCA but now I'm wondering would I be able to read register the male to ABCA and be able to register the pups as well or would I get in trouble? We really just want to keep a couple pups for ourselves depending on how many she actually has might have to give a couple away besides the one we already are. Thanks for any help!

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Mrjones15,

 

I agree with all that Gloria said. Please don't take is as chastising, we just love our breed and want the best for it. If you are looking to get a couple pups it would certainly be cheaper to buy them! In addition, you could jeopardize the life of your beloved BC should there be complications from breeding. Let me add that charging extra for papers or breeding rights is a ridiculous notion.

Good luck with your endeavor.

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Agree with Gloria.

That said I do not agree with breeders that declare some sort of rights or control over the animal after

they have sold it.

You sell a puppy, not a genome copyright.

I'd like to see people try something like that with a horse sale; " Yes, you can buy this foal, but if you intend to breed it I want twice as much money, now....:)

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I also agree with Gloria.

 

For these Boards, working ability (i.e. herding) should be demonstrated before considering breeding. And all the health checks too.

 

It is good that you have a female registered with ABCA. Are her parents working stock? Hopefully she will have inherited working ability, but it should be proven by working her on stock.

 

Best to wait to choose a male who is a good worker. Puppies are such a black box so you never know if a male puppy you bought would have the desired working ability. Also, you could choose a male already registered with ABCA.

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Welcome to the Boards.

Everything Gloria (and others) said, and this . . . .

Both parents should have demonstrated their very competent livestock working abilities well before you ever contemplate having a litter. Does your girl work livestock, and work it well? Can she demonstrate this by running competently in USBCHA Open sheepdog or cattle dog trials? If not (IOW if she's a pet who's never worked livestock), she's not breeding material, no matter how much you love her or how great a dog she is. Even an unproven dog from excellent parents usually isn't considered a breeding option because not every dog inherits the instinct and ability equally. There are lots of duds produced by excellent working parents.

If your dog is running an placing successfully in Open trials, then choose a mate who's equally well qualified and whose pedigree and working style complements your female's You don't have to own the sire. Stud service is readily available.

I understand the desire to have a litter of your own because you love your dog. I was once you and felt the same way. Though I never trialed (I wasn't a very good handler, which is a whole 'nother story), my dog was a pretty decent working dog and I bred 2 litters, both of which had some (different) genetic issues that came up. I came to the to the realization pretty quickly that I really couldn't dedicate myself, either financially or in terms of the amount of work I'd have to put into it, to be an ethical and responsible breeder of border collies.

If you feel you need to experience the miracle of birth and of raising a litter, volunteer to be a foster home for a rescue or shelter and sign up to foster a pregnant dog in rescue. You'll get the same experience without bringing more poorly bred border collies into the already over-populated world that won't do a thing to perpetuate the amazing qualities that make border collies the awesome dogs they are.

By all means, if you want to have more border collies yourself, get another (or 2 or 3). But either rescue (there are plenty who need homes) or if you're buying make sure you're buying from someone who has the best interest of the breed at heart and breeds only with working ability as the primary criterion.

And whatever you do, stay away from ACK dogs! They're so genetically distinct from working border collies so as to be an entirely different breed. There's been a chart posted on the Boards somewhere showing this.

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Welcome to the boards.

 

I just wanted to take a moment to offer some advise, think very hard before breeding your pride and joy, there is a health risk involved that many do not consider when they decide that they are going to breed their favorite dog. Health risk to her and also to the pups in addition to the long term responsibility to puppies produced.

 

I would strongly suggest buying a pup when your ready, just like you did in order to get the dog that you love so much considering that another breeder produced her, odds of getting another like her would be from the breeder that produced her or uses similar selection as opposed to you trying to produce more by breeding her. There is more to producing quality pups then putting two dogs that you like together and letting them have pups.

 

Anyway it is heartbreaking to talk to someone who bred their favorite dog and ended up losing her or the pups. They end up regretting the decision to ever breed in the first place.

 

Decisions to breed should never be taken lightly. Do lots of research before breeding and take the time to become a expert with regard to breeding, selection, puppy care & rearing in addition to purpose for which your wanting to breed.

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Everything said above I second wholeheartedly.

Please take the advice given to heart, and listen to what is being said. This is important. No criticism of you is intended; just education. If you love your dog, and the border collie breed, please do not breed her just to have a couple of puppies for yourself and a friend.

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Debbie brings up very important points as well. Even though dogs breed without human help all the time, even if the neighbor's pit bull cross could jump a fence and produce a litter that pops right out effortlessly ... there is always that small chance that things won't go so well.

I know of one litter whose mother required a cesarean due to a large pup - and the mother almost didn't recover from the anesthetic. It took her two or three days to rebound from a dopey, lethargic state during which the bitch's owner had to manually assist with care for her puppies, helping them nurse several times a day, stimulating them to poop and pee and cleaning them. Another friend of mine had a litter that was born just fine, but then the mother almost crashed due to a calcium deficiency, which sent the bitch AND her pups to the vet hospital, and they had to find a surrogate mother for a few days. More recently a friend of mine whelped 9 puppies, one of which was born dead - and it took the poor bitch 11 hours of labor. A vet had to give 2 shots of oxytocin to help with contractions.

Things can go wrong. You must be prepared for that. Plus there are all the other concerns people have given here.

I'm sorry if we are crushing a dream, but we are passionate about the welfare of our breed and its continued survival as the premier herding dog. Our wish is not to belittle or demean you, but rather to educate you and to encourage you to think deeply about the seriousness of breeding these dogs.

Respectfully,

Gloria

 

 

 

Welcome to the boards.

I just wanted to take a moment to offer some advise, think very hard before breeding your pride and joy, there is a health risk involved that many do not consider when they decide that they are going to breed their favorite dog. Health risk to her and also to the pups in addition to the long term responsibility to puppies produced.

I would strongly suggest buying a pup when your ready, just like you did in order to get the dog that you love so much considering that another breeder produced her, odds of getting another like her would be from the breeder that produced her or uses similar selection as opposed to you trying to produce more by breeding her. There is more to producing quality pups then putting two dogs that you like together and letting them have pups.

Anyway it is heartbreaking to talk to someone who bred their favorite dog and ended up losing her or the pups. They end up regretting the decision to ever breed in the first place.

Decisions to breed should never be taken lightly. Do lots of research before breeding and take the time to become a expert with regard to breeding, selection, puppy care & rearing in addition to purpose for which your wanting to breed.

 

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I was consulting someone last night who was in a blind panic, her dog was screaming, first pup not coming, presentation was wrong stuck. If your not comfortable reaching in and manipulating the pup to a deliverable position not much choice but to run to the vet. She got to the vet, vet clinic put her in a room but didn't immediately assist. Took other ER clients first. Pup finally delivered in the clinic with only owner present, owner out of frustration packed up her dog and new pup and left. Next puppy born dead, happens when the one ahead of it was stuck. Delivered 3rd alive.

 

Maybe a C-section would have saved the 2nd pup, maybe instead just cost the owner a couple thousand dollars and then fears that the bitch won't make it. Many vet clinics are not reproduction specialist, some have never delivered puppies. Important to find a good vet before ever thinking about breeding that is both knowledgeable and experienced when it comes to whelping.

 

Be certain you can handle death, with life comes death. Sometimes in the form of new born puppies, some times the bitch doesn't make it.

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^^MrJones15 is following this thread, so has been getting the responses in his email.

 

The silence does make me think that he may not have been hearing what he wanted to hear, but to not even acknowledge the time people took to respectfully reply to his query is rather, um, discourteous.

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It is difficult for someone who sees no harm in his desire to breed his beloved dog, to understand why it IS harmfull. Many years ago, I was there, did that. If in some years the op understands why this forum reacted in this way and realizes he agrees, then this discussion will have been worth it.

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Please read and reread the advice above. Then come to terms with the following, given my before I co-bred my boys (Of my other breed) - '

These are my puppies. They did not ask to come to this world, I brought them here. Consequently, I am responsible for them for life, and I will meet that responsibility. If they cannot stay where I have placed them for any reason, I will require that they be returned to me, and I will refund the purchase price. I will rehome them or they will live out their lives with me underfoot. And when through age or infirmity their quality of life is gone beyond recovering I will hold them in my lap while my vet Sends them on their way.'

If you can not or will not live up to this responsibility, you should net breed any dogs.

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Agree with Gloria.

That said I do not agree with breeders that declare some sort of rights or control over the animal after

they have sold it.

You sell a puppy, not a genome copyright.

I'd like to see people try something like that with a horse sale; " Yes, you can buy this foal, but if you intend to breed it I want twice as much money, now....:)

Meet too.

 

I know some breeders don't want people breeding a dog that, for whatever reason, isn't up to their standards, which is okay with me. Having no reason except to be able to get twice the money to allow breeding is ridiculous and I wouldn't buy an animal from them.

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