Jump to content
BC Boards

Border Collie Wins Best of Group in National Dog Show


Recommended Posts

Breeds are a human contrivance based upon genetically controlled features that define the breed.

 

Take for example West Highland White Terriers and the Scottish Terrier; both were likely from the same regional terrier but were bred to select for different coat colors; thereby, creating two different breeds starting from different sub populations of the same gene pool.

 

Like appearance, behaviors are genetically controlled (instincts). Like coat color or ear set, if one does not actively select for these genes the resulting pups may or may retain the genetically controlled traits that were present in the original gene pool. Because show breeders do not evaluate for working traits (one cannot simply look at a dog standing in a ring to know working traits) they cannot select for working traits. They are only selecting for traits they can see (appearance); they are selecting for a sub population of the original gene pool (original gene pool was based upon working traits).

 

One can think of show and working bred Border Collies as different breeds just like Westies and Scotties are different breeds. Both started from the same gene pool but by selection for different genes (appearance vs. instincts) within the same gene pool have become different breeds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay I understand now. A working breed BC can look just a showroom (I've seen pictures) but he's still a working breed. Or a working breed can be anything in between a smooth and showroom type and still be a working breed.

 

A showroom always looks like a showroom but is never a working breed.

 

I will say BC may be one of the most interesting breeds. I'm really glad I have Yoti. He's most certainly a working breed though he's got a good bit of hair at 10 months so still waiting to see exactly how get turns out. He's a half white half black face so he couldn't get the club anyway haha.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Julie I was born and raised I the hills of NC. I don't know about my wording just me making sentences about something I'm learning about.

 

^ Gentlelake I have no idea what I'm really talking about haha. When I say show room I'm referring to those border collie with the blow dried hair and double black patches. I've never seen a "show room" picture with half white face but once again I have no idea what I'm talking about. Hope that answers your question.

 

PS: does anyone know when the dog shows come on TV? Is it only once a year?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Julie I was born and raised I the hills of NC. I don't know about my wording just me making sentences about something I'm learning about.

 

I visited the hills of NC about 15 years ago and instantly fell in love with the place and the people. It's a pity I was only there a couple of days. And, unless I am mistaken, that's the place that gives people some glimpses into Shakespearean English, as some say.

 

Best wishes,

Maja

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^ Julie I was born and raised I the hills of NC. I don't know about my wording just me making sentences about something I'm learning about.

 

^ Gentlelake I have no idea what I'm really talking about haha. When I say show room I'm referring to those border collie with the blow dried hair and double black patches. I've never seen a "show room" picture with half white face but once again I have no idea what I'm talking about. Hope that answers your question.

 

PS: does anyone know when the dog shows come on TV? Is it only once a year?

There are several dog shows, but the biggest one is on Thanksgiving I believe.

 

Also I know people who show Belgians, and they have mentioned that non-traditional markings on border collies get a fault of some kind. Also of all of the confirmation people I've talked to they all say smooth coat border collies are not recognized in confirmation by AKC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/28/2016 at 9:23 PM, Chick-N-Picker said:

PS: does anyone know when the dog shows come on TV? Is it only once a year?

 

It depends on what dog show you're talking about. Most of the big shows (and even most of the regional ones) such as Westminster or the National Dog Show, which is the one referred to in the original post, are annual. Some are televised, many more are not. Only a few are televised by the major networks and some may be available on cable depending on who picks them up and may or may not be available in all viewing areas.

 

On 11/29/2016 at 8:36 PM, Cass C said:

Also I know people who show Belgians, and they have mentioned that non-traditional markings on border collies get a fault of some kind. Also of all of the confirmation people I've talked to they all say smooth coat border collies are not recognized in confirmation by AKC.

 

The people you've talked to are mistaken, at least in regards to the official ACK standard:

 
Coat—Two varieties are permissible, both having close-fitting, dense, weather resistant double coats with the top coat either straight or slightly wavy and coarser in texture than the undercoat which is soft, short and dense. The rough variety coat may vary in length without being excessive. Proper texture is more important than length. Forelegs, haunches, chest and underside are feathered and the coat on face, ears, feet, fronts of legs is short and smooth. The smooth variety is short over entire body, is usually coarser in texture than the rough variety and may have slight feathering on forelegs, haunches, chest and ruff. Neither coat type is preferred over the other. Seasonal shedding is normal and must not be penalized. Excess hair on the feet, hock and pastern areas may be neatened for the show ring. Whiskers are untrimmed. Dogs should be presented naturally, without excessive trimming or sculpting.
 
Color—The Border Collie appears in all colors or combination of colors and/or markings. All colors are to be judged equally with no one color or pattern preferred over another. White markings may be clear white or ticked to any degree. Random white patches on the body are permissible but should not predominate. The predominant ear color should match the primary body color. Color and markings are always secondary to physical evaluation and gait. (http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Border_Collie.pdf?_ga=1.94028125.1963142070.1480365681)
 
That said, despite the official standard's allowing both smooth coats, half white faces and the like, it's not at all unusual in the conformation world for standards to be set aside for whatever the judge's preference or the fad of the day to be within whatever breed's being evaluated. GSD's official standard doesn't call for the excessive top line that renders them effectively crippled and the Cocker spaniel's standard states that excessive coat is to be severely penalized, but when was the last time you saw a champion Cocker whose coat wasn't excessive? :rolleyes:
 
So it all depends what the current fads de facto are as to what will win or not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

It depends on what dog show you're talking about. Most of the big shows (and even most of the regional ones) such as Westminster or the National Dog Show, which is the one referred to in the original post, are annual. Some are televised, many more are not. Only a few are televised by the major networks and some may be available on cable depending on who picks them up and may or may not be available in all viewing areas.

 

 

The people you've talked to are mistaken, at least in regards to the official ACK standard:

CoatTwo varieties are permissible, both having close-fitting, dense, weather resistant double coats with the top coat either straight or slightly wavy and coarser in texture than the undercoat which is soft, short and dense. The rough variety coat may vary in length without being excessive. Proper texture is more important than length. Forelegs, haunches, chest and underside are feathered and the coat on face, ears, feet, fronts of legs is short and smooth. The smooth variety is short over entire body, is usually coarser in texture than the rough variety and may have slight feathering on forelegs, haunches, chest and ruff. Neither coat type is preferred over the other. Seasonal shedding is normal and must not be penalized. Excess hair on the feet, hock and pastern areas may be neatened for the show ring. Whiskers are untrimmed. Dogs should be presented naturally, without excessive trimming or sculpting.

ColorThe Border Collie appears in all colors or combination of colors and/or markings. All colors are to be judged equally with no one color or pattern preferred over another. White markings may be clear white or ticked to any degree. Random white patches on the body are permissible but should not predominate. The predominant ear color should match the primary body color. Color and markings are always secondary to physical evaluation and gait. (http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Border_Collie.pdf?_ga=1.94028125.1963142070.1480365681)

That said, despite the official standard's allowing both smooth coats, half white faces and the like, it's not at all unusual in the conformation world for standards to be set aside for whatever the judge's preference or the fad on the day to be within whatever breed's being evaluated. GSD's official standard doesn't call for the excessive top line that renders them effectively crippled and the Cocker spaniel's standard states that excessive coat is to be severely penalized, but when was the last time you saw a champion Cocker whose coat wasn't excessive? :rolleyes:

So it all depends what the current fads de jure are as to what will win or not.

I don't get much into confirmation, so I wasn't aware of the official rules just what I have been told. That being said for all I know they were talking about what judges are looking for and not the actual AKC standards, like I said they show Belgians :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I Steward dog shows, both Conformation and Performance -although show 'performance' bears little resemblance to a stockdog trial. I've watched Borders since they became recognized for Conformation showing. I've seen the winning dog referred to 'up close and personal'. A beautiful dog. Impeccably groomed. Totally without Eye or intensity, truly a different breed than those I used to watch when the Open was held at Hubert Bailey's place.

 

What I don't understand - and perhaps one of the older people can 'splain is this. The AKC recognized a particular terrier not too long back, and now recognize two breeds of it, Parson Russel Terriers and Russel Terriers. There are no Jack Russel Terriers in the AKC. What did the Jack Russel folks know or do that the working Border Collie people didn't?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello jbridges,

 

Back when we fought The Dog Wars (the title of a book by Donald McCaig recounting our efforts to keep the Border Collie from being fully recognized by the AKC), we proposed that the AKC give their version of the Border Collie a different name. We lost that battle. However, as you noted, the Jack Russell Terrier devotees were able to succeed where we failed.

 

Regards,

nancy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Bridges asks: "What did the Jack Russel folks know or do that the working Border Collie people didn't?"

 

Trademark law.

 

Donald McCaig

Does that mean that the Jack Russel folks were able to trademark the name of the breed and that allowed them to refuse to let the AKC use it?

Damn. I wish we could have done that. :angry:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Jack Russell itself has recently been recognised by the KC in the UK against the wishes of the JRT Club of GB.

 

The creation of the Parson Russell Terrier by the KC has had no impact on the Jack in the general population and I don't expect the latest move to make a huge amount of difference.

 

When you take a very popular breed or type like the BC and Jack are in the UK, breeds that still fulfil a useful purpose, the KC is likely to have little influence. They are used and appreciated in the main by people who don't give a stuff about showing.

 

The KC hasn't managed to wipe out the working gun dog, lab and cocker in particular. In fact both are becoming increasingly popular over the show version here in the UK. Admittedly it will depend on area but I no longer ask enquirers about agility whether their dogs are working or show type as it's a long time since we've seen a show one of either. The last one I can remember was a lab owner who left in a huff because he was told his dog needed to lose weight. Probably for the best. Not just in agility, I just don't see many out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Ms. D'elle,

 

We tried. Mr. Smalahundur is mistaken: names matter. Which is why companies spend fortunes defending their trademarks. I once asked the AKC Board what they'd do if I started a dog registry called it " AKC" and started registering dogs.

 

"We'd sue".

 

Fortunately, the show dogs formerly known as "Border Collies" are often called "Barbie Collies" - an accurate reflection of the values they embody.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As this article points out, the impact of the kennel clubs and their use of the same name for a breed leads to the impression by the general public and even hunters (working homes) that there is no difference between field bred or show bred dogs.

Field vs Show - What's the Difference?

 

This is detrimental to the brand name and to the working gene pool, since homes that hunt with dogs are being filled with show bred dogs.

 

We just completed a search for another LGD. I was astounded by the number of breeders who had 20 or so sheep/goats on a few acres with a few LGDs and had a litter produced by one of their dogs and a show champion and then called the pups working dogs. How many flock owners get one of these "working bred" pups and then believe the quality of their LGD defines the quality of all working bred LGDs?

 

Show breeding does impact working bred dogs; it does not impact what working breeders do but it does impact the brand name (due to counterfeits) and shrink the number of available working homes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It don't think it is show breeding in itself. it's companion dog breeding for whom show is a good competition venue in that it really says nothing about the dog, a requires little in terms of training. Only a few people need a hunting dog for hunting a border collie for sheep, an LGD for guarding livestock, but millions want a companion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Í don't think it would have changed that much, it is just a name.

 

Your argument seems to echo Juliet's: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose,/By any other name would smell as sweet."

 

But Barbie collies hardly smell as sweet (or work as well) as the original working collies, so the name now is inaccurate, disingenuous and creates a whole lot of confusion among many people not fully in possession of the facts.

 

Names do matter. Ask anyone who's been a victim of identity theft. How is this much different?

 

Donald, can you please refresh my memory? Wasn't there inquiry into whether the name "border collie" could be trademarked? If so, what was the impediment? I think I may recall but am not certain. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I buy my dog food at a dog food store. What I run into all the time is that people have absolutely no idea that there is a difference between and AKC border collie and a working bred border collie. The response I get is "oh, they are so smart." or "they need tons of exercise." That's it. People have no idea. And I don't think they care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There ís only one thing that will save and preserve the working bordercollie; people working bordercollie 's because they have a real need for dogs that can handle stock.

The rest is a marketing turf war of people that want to own names, breeds etc. Just as silly as breeders that claim to own the genomes of "their" lines. I don.t really care about such nonsense.

 

The existence of the show border collie is as relevant to me as the existence of the papillon;not at all. It has no connection whatsoever to the dogs I am interested in.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...