Solo graduated from Basic Obedience! But ... (advice needed)

[Solo33]

It was just an 8-week basic obedience class, but we had the last class yesterday and he got a nice litte certificate. The intermediate class starts next week.

 

As I expected, he learned everything just fine. He already knew how to some of the commands, but I went specifically to train him alongside the distractions of other dogs. He did learn a few new things, too.

 

Here's what I didn't expect: He acted so down and mopey while we were there. Not every time, but especially at this last class, he was just depressed. Yes he did what was expected, but he was just so down about it.

 

When I train him at home in the basement, doing the same stuff, he is his normal happy self. When we are at this place, you'd think he had the worst life ever. In the class there are happy Labs, chatty GSDs, a BC mix, and they were all seemingly happy to be there.

 

My gut says not to enroll him the next time. Then I am second guessing myself, wondering if we need to perservere so he learns something ... what, I don't know. It's not that he is untrainable or that he has problems with other dogs, but learning in that environment is just no fun for him.

 

He's 11 months old today, by the way. I've had him since he was 8 weeks old and have known him since he was born.

 

Ideas or advice?

 

 

[GentleLake]

Not enough info for ideas or advice yet, but a question.

 

What methods were the trainer(s) using?

[Riika]

I'd be wondering if the environment (the other dogs, people, scents, maybe a whiny noise the light gives off, etc) were causing this. The other thing I think of, from noticing it in myself, is that I am very restrained when training in public, and frankly, become quite boring.

[Solo33]

Not enough info for ideas or advice yet, but a question.

 

What methods were the trainer(s) using?

 

Her method doesn't have a name as far as I know, and on her site she discusses studying many different methods and coming up with her own method. She also trains SAR dogs. Lots of hot dogs, walking around in an oval, learning things by repetition and small steps. She recommends the use of a prong collar, but we didn't use it. Overall it was positive training. I am in a very rural community, and I have to travel about 30 minutes to get to this facility. If I were to look into others, they would be at least an hour and a half away. I can train him at home but also wanted the benefit of the different environment and distractions.

 

I'd be wondering if the environment (the other dogs, people, scents, maybe a whiny noise the light gives off, etc) were causing this. The other thing I think of, from noticing it in myself, is that I am very restrained when training in public, and frankly, become quite boring.

 

I'm sure the environment had something to do with it. Barking dogs in the background, other dogs in the waiting room area that had issues with each other, etc. I just wonder if it's a good thing to work through this kind of stuff or not.

[gcv-border]

Is he mopey and down throughout the whole lesson? Or is he a bit more energetic at the beginning and then becomes more down towards the end of the class?

 

If so, he is probably tired.

 

In my 'life skills' class, the dogs are given breaks every 5-10 minutes to just relax and maybe take a drink of water. They are tethered to the wall and nothing is expect of them.

[CptJack]

The first place my brain jumped was actually stress. I promised Molly that we'd do no more classes that happen in a day care facility. It's just too enclosed and too many dogs behind the walls and so on tend to really be hard for her to handle. That said, she still does *stuff* with the club and learning, she just can't do it inside that facility. Nor can she do petstores. Same thing. Too enclosed, too much stuff going on out of sight for her to relax.

 

How you handle it - I could make an argument for going either way, so I'm no help there.

[Maralynn]

I've found that I'm often quite a bit more stiff/tense in formal class type settings than I am at home. And this absolutely affects my dog. Could it be that he's feeding off of you in some way? I've worked hard to lighten up in public settings and focus on having fun with my dog. But it takes a surprising amount of effort for me!

[Solo33]

Is he mopey and down throughout the whole lesson? Or is he a bit more energetic at the beginning and then becomes more down towards the end of the class?

 

If so, he is probably tired.

 

In my 'life skills' class, the dogs are given breaks every 5-10 minutes to just relax and maybe take a drink of water. They are tethered to the wall and nothing is expect of them.

 

Generally we'd arrive, dogs would be barking outside like crazy, he'd whine about it while I encouraged him to keep moving with me. This trainer also breeds GSDs and Labs so there are dogs in kennels outside.

 

We get inside a waiting room with the other people in the class and wait our turn. He meets the other dogs nicely and we sit down. Often another dog will have an issue with someone else and there will be a bark fest, and one owner brings their dog outside. Solo's ears go back and he looks worried when this happens, and I reassure him that he's okay.

 

We go inside and start going in an oval shape, loose leash walking, with hot dogs given when he does good things like look at me, staying by me, etc. It usually takes him a few trips around the room before he'll even take a treat. He walks and does what is expected but looks downward. Eventually he stops being mopey and starts taking treats. If I teach a new thing, he is alert and engaged. A half hour goes by and we take a half hour break for potty and water. Then we go back into the waiting room to socialize. This is usually where Solo sniffs other dogs and then he settles down. Another dog altercation usually happens between the same two dogs that did it before. He used to get really bothered by it, but after awhile he just ignored it. Now we finish the last half hour. He usually gets right into the routine again and it goes well until the end.

 

I can tell he's not LOVING it but he tolerated it pretty well until the last class of the course. He was just DOWN. Could this be because I left him with his breeder that day when I took my car to the cities so it could have work done on it? Was he upset with me for being gone all day? He'd spent the day inside and outside with dogs he knows very well, but I could tell he was ready to go home. It was like his original mopey attitude that happens every time for the first 5 to 10 minutes lasted the entire class last time.

 

The first place my brain jumped was actually stress. I promised Molly that we'd do no more classes that happen in a day care facility. It's just too enclosed and too many dogs behind the walls and so on tend to really be hard for her to handle. That said, she still does *stuff* with the club and learning, she just can't do it inside that facility. Nor can she do petstores. Same thing. Too enclosed, too much stuff going on out of sight for her to relax.

 

How you handle it - I could make an argument for going either way, so I'm no help there.

 

I read your posts about Molly and that is what prompted me to post my own. I want to do the right thing for him. I can see that it's stressful. But is it the kind that is good for him to help him grow OR will I push him too hard and cause him to have struggles.

 

I've found that I'm often quite a bit more stiff/tense in formal class type settings than I am at home. And this absolutely affects my dog. Could it be that he's feeding off of you in some way? I've worked hard to lighten up in public settings and focus on having fun with my dog. But it takes a surprising amount of effort for me!

 

This is possible. If I go back, I will definitely work on noticing any differences and trying to be consistent.

[mum24dog]

I would just ask why you are going to this class? What do you hope to get out of it? Is it helping you or your dog in any way?

 

It doesn't sound like it. Your dog isn't happy and because he isn't, you aren't.

 

Classes can be overrated ime and are not as necessary as often made out.

[Solo33]

I would just ask why you are going to this class? What do you hope to get out of it? Is it helping you or your dog in any way?

 

It doesn't sound like it. Your dog isn't happy and because he isn't, you aren't.

 

Classes can be overrated ime and are not as necessary as often made out.

 

I am going because I wanted to train Solo in a different environment, with the distractions that I just can't provide here at home. Looking back from the beginning class to now, I can see how it has helped Solo not be as reactive with strange dogs. He wasn't bad, but he would get more whiney and pay attention to me less.

 

He isn't happy about it, no. I would be unhappy to put him through something that will harm him more than help him, and that is my problem. I just want to do the right thing for him.

[CptJack]

Take one night a week and go to a park and train him there. Heck, make a park tour of your area, or go to different store parking lots or set up play dates with friends. You can work on being around other dogs and distractions without boring him to tears or shutting him down from stress, and if you're working in variable locations you can also back off and work on him just being HAPPY in those locations if you need to.

That will be more useful to you than seeing the same set of dogs week after week and a single location, anyway.

[mickif]

all good possible reasons in other replies. If I am reading this correct and you do a lot of that oval work, Maybe it's boring for him, as in been there done that. My dog does not do well with repetitions of anything, it seems like she starts thinking that she's doing it wrong and gets worried, even if she's doing it right, so I make sure to break it up and throw in other simple behaviors she knows well. Also sounds like a somewhat chaotic, noisy environment and if he's a sensitive dog it could be affecting him negatively. Sorry I'm on my phone so this may not read easily!

[D'Elle]

If he is unhappy in the class, don't enroll him in another one. You might end up with his associating a negative feeling with the training in general, and you don't want that.

I would second the advice above to take him to parks, down different streets, into hardware stores, anywhere away from home that is safe and that will provide the distractions you seek. It could be that the environment in that place is stressful to him in a way that cannot be changed, and continuing to go there won't make it better. If you can find other people with dogs (maybe a Meetup group, or start your own) who would like to go walking with you, that could give you the dog-to-dog interaction you seek.

[teresaserrano]

If I was in your situation, I might choose to go for the second class (might, it would depend on stuff I really don't know about you and your dog), but I would go and not worry very much about what I'm suposed to be teaching, and really focus on how I could make that experience more fun and engaging. As in, I would take the class and make it a class about "we have fun here and enjoy ourselves when we come". And I would see how it went and if I was going somewhere within that goal.

I do believe in putting a bit of stress in a dog in order to help him overcome uncomfortable situations, but there's obvious limits to that. For one, the owner must be focused in helping the dog overcome the situation, in oposition to just working on what everybody else is working. Second, one must be aware of what is going on and if there is a good outcome of the whole thing. If it's working, even with some hiccups, great, but if it's not working, no point in stressing the dog.

I do believe that if it's definitely not working, one keeps working on whatever's the problem, but in a different setting that helps the dog sucsed (how the hell does one write that last word? I'm lost . There's not even a portuguese word i can use to google translate. We use two words for that meaning.).

[PuppyMavis]

I don't know if this helps with your decision, but I recently went through a similar situation with our puppy Mavis. She is 10 months old and we are taking a 6 week pre-agility class with other puppies around her age. The first 3 weeks of classes were outside at 7pm and she loved it. With it getting dark earlier, the classes were moved inside an enclosed space for the 4th week. The first time she came out of her crate to train (while all other puppies were in their crates), she did fine. But the second time, she had a complete meltdown. I think the enclosed space, the puppies in their crates and all the people in such a small space were just too much. (She has become more reactive during adolescence and we are dealing with that separately using LAT and pretty soon BAT.)

 

Luckily, our teacher helped us work through it. We didn't put any pressure on her to do the training, we tried to make her feel comfortable by letting her investigate the environment, gave her treats, and as teresaserrano recommended, tried to make the experience fun and engaging. I would try simple things she knows well like sit or shake, to see if she was in the mood to train. At the recommendation of our trainer, she'd go back in her crate while it was still positive. The next class we went to was better, but she was still worried.

 

This last class, I was really debating whether we should go or not. I didn't want to put her in a stressful situation. I had also gotten stressed out during the last few classes and was concerned that she might be picking up on that. But I also wanted her to be able to work through situations. So we went and I was so happy we did. I was resolved to remain calm. She was totally engaged in training and behaved great while in her crate. We continued to keep the training short and ended it while she was still happy and engaged.

 

Edit: I should have mentioned that while glad we finished the classes, we have decided to hold off on more obedience and agility classes until after we have worked on her reactivity. We are starting BAT with the same trainer this week.

[urge to herd]

Border collies are very sensitive to noise, motion, proximity, scents and probably some other stuff humans don't know about. So in addition to what we humans notice, they're receiving a LOT more stimuli/info than we are. I think it's probably overwhelming, especially to a young dog.

 

Like PuppyMavis, I took my 9 yr old Gibbs to a couple rounds of agility classes. Outside, daylight, big field - and an instructor who fell in love with him. He did great.

 

Last winter, I started us on some trick training classes. Inside, dark, more noise/scent/motions etc than we ever had in agility. And closer.

 

I discovered that if I took him out somewhere in the middle of the hour, then gave him something to chew for a few minutes when we went back inside, he could pay attention happily for the 2nd half. Without that break, he was really miserable.

 

You've gotten a lot of good ideas for you and Solo. I'd go with working by yourselves in a variety of environments for a while. It can't hurt, and it will help him get used to being in new-to-him places.

 

All the best - keep posting pics of that boy!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Solo33]

As in, I would take the class and make it a class about "we have fun here and enjoy ourselves when we come". And I would see how it went and if I was going somewhere within that goal.

I do believe in putting a bit of stress in a dog in order to help him overcome uncomfortable situations, but there's obvious limits to that. For one, the owner must be focused in helping the dog overcome the situation, in oposition to just working on what everybody else is working. Second, one must be aware of what is going on and if there is a good outcome of the whole thing. If it's working, even with some hiccups, great, but if it's not working, no point in stressing the dog.

 

I wouldn't be able to do that in this class. If I deviate from what is supposed to be happening, I get talked to, and then my anxiety goes up and then ... no, I can't see how I could work on my own goals while taking the class.

 

Border collies are very sensitive to noise, motion, proximity, scents and probably some other stuff humans don't know about. So in addition to what we humans notice, they're receiving a LOT more stimuli/info than we are. I think it's probably overwhelming, especially to a young dog.

 

Oh don't I know it. Lately he cannot stop staring at shadows in the house. I know when he's overwhelmed, though everyone else sees it as tired.

 

I have decided not to enroll in this next round. It's hard for ME because I'd wanted to continue. However, there are many opportunities I can take advantage of without the class. We are in a rural area, but I can take him to Tractor Supply (35 minutes away) when I have to go there. I can try to set up some meetings with people and their dogs. I just got 23 runner ducks to teach him to herd, so that will also occupy his mind.

 

He's only 11 months old, but he seems so much older. People remark about how much older he acts. Now that I have been around enough working border collies, I realize how different they are from other dogs!

[GentleLake]

I wouldn't be able to do that in this class. If I deviate from what is supposed to be happening, I get talked to, and then my anxiety goes up and then ... no, I can't see how I could work on my own goals while taking the class.

 

Would you be able to talk to the instructor prior to the class and explain what you want to do and why you need to do it?

 

Or are there any other trainers around you who aren't control freaks and would be more receptive to your needs?

 

Even if the classes or even the methods aren't exactly what you want, you wouldn't actually be there for the class or the method, but rather to work on your specific situation.

 

I know a lot of people who travel up to an hour for a good trainer who will work with them on what they need or whose methods they prefer. Could that also be an option, especially if it's temporary?

[Maralynn]

CaptnJack posted in another thread and I think it bears repeating - young dogs can seem mature long before they are. My 2.5 y/o has always been mature acting. But in the past few months he has really seemed to have come into his own. He can handle himself and life better, he's got a new confident edge to him.

 

Take a break, do fun stuff, do some basic TSC trips and the like. Try classes again in a few months. Maybe try some online classes (Fenzi academy has some great ones!) where you can work on some basics and keep it fun for both of you.

[Shandula]

I work as a dog trainer, and we are always happy to let clients do what they need to do to work with their dog. Even if that is just sitting and watching other dogs, or working from behind a barrier etc. etc. If it isn't disrupting class, I don't care. You paid to take the class, and it is your dog that you know way better than I will. It's annoying the instructor is so finicky.

 

I will say, Heidi gets bored super quick. What some dogs are struggling to get in the 50th rep, she's already mastered in two, so we constantly challenge her. The standard classes are far too easy for her, so we always add an extra challenge or two for her.

[Solo33]

Would you be able to talk to the instructor prior to the class and explain what you want to do and why you need to do it?

 

Or are there any other trainers around you who aren't control freaks and would be more receptive to your needs?

 

Even if the classes or even the methods aren't exactly what you want, you wouldn't actually be there for the class or the method, but rather to work on your specific situation.

 

I know a lot of people who travel up to an hour for a good trainer who will work with them on what they need or whose methods they prefer. Could that also be an option, especially if it's temporary?

 

I could talk to her, but I do not think she would want me to deviate from the class. I have talked with her after a class about Solo and some of his behaviors and what they might mean, and I just didn't get the sense that she was understanding what I was saying. I was already breaking tradition by not having him wear the prong collar like every single other dog.

 

I will look into other trainers, though I am certain I would be looking at places an hour and a half away. I would not be opposed to traveling if the class was worth it for him.

 

CaptnJack posted in another thread and I think it bears repeating - young dogs can seem mature long before they are. My 2.5 y/o has always been mature acting. But in the past few months he has really seemed to have come into his own. He can handle himself and life better, he's got a new confident edge to him.

 

Take a break, do fun stuff, do some basic TSC trips and the like. Try classes again in a few months. Maybe try some online classes (Fenzi academy has some great ones!) where you can work on some basics and keep it fun for both of you.

 

I have looked into Fenzi Academy and will do so again to see what is coming up!

 

I work as a dog trainer, and we are always happy to let clients do what they need to do to work with their dog. Even if that is just sitting and watching other dogs, or working from behind a barrier etc. etc. If it isn't disrupting class, I don't care. You paid to take the class, and it is your dog that you know way better than I will. It's annoying the instructor is so finicky.

 

I will say, Heidi gets bored super quick. What some dogs are struggling to get in the 50th rep, she's already mastered in two, so we constantly challenge her. The standard classes are far too easy for her, so we always add an extra challenge or two for her.

 

Solo was bored, too. He would master something quickly and then look around as if to say ... why are we waiting? But I want him to learn that he needs to focus on me no matter what, so I figured it was okay. Maybe he's too young even though he acts older.

 

Thank you all for your input.

[GentleLake]

That really doesn't sound to me like a trainer I'd want anywhere near my dog.

 

Any trainer who can't adapt to the individual dog's or student's needs and has to rely on a pinch collar in all circumstances doesn't sound very competent to me.

 

JMO, of course.

[Solo33]

That really doesn't sound to me like a trainer I'd want anywhere near my dog.

 

Any trainer who can't adapt to the individual dog's or student's needs and has to rely on a pinch collar in all circumstances doesn't sound very competent to me.

 

JMO, of course.

 

I understand what you are saying. Because I decided not to use the prong collar, overall the class was positive for Solo except for the fact that the environment was obviously stressful to him at times. I did glean some good info from the class that I will keep using, but after a lot of reflection, it isn't the place for us.

[D'Elle]

That really doesn't sound to me like a trainer I'd want anywhere near my dog.

 

Any trainer who can't adapt to the individual dog's or student's needs and has to rely on a pinch collar in all circumstances doesn't sound very competent to me.

 

JMO, of course.

My thoughts exactly. I would have nothing to do with that trainer. To me, it would be more than worth it to drive however far I had to (and I often have to drive a ways to get somewhere, so I know what I am talking about) in order for my dog to go to a good trainer if I felt a trainer was needed. Going to a bad one, and that one sounds bad to me, is a huge waste of time and can even be harmful.

I will also endorse the Fenzi online courses.

[GentleLake]

Because I decided not to use the prong collar, overall the class was positive for Solo except for the fact that the environment was obviously stressful to him at times.

 

Sorry to be sounding argumentative again, but if it was obviously stressful then I don't understand how it can also have been positive.

 

Just stating the (to me at least) obvious here. . . .