Female Border Collie Temperament

[Shandula]

Hello! Thanks in advance for any thoughts, advice, and general information.

 

My BC is now almost 16 months old and I'm starting to notice a little bit of a bitchy attitude that I'm wondering is common or if we need to work on it.

 

Quick background: Purchased from a breeder, brought home at 7 weeks. Instantly in love with my year old male Aussie, and have been best buddies ever since. A couple weeks in, noticed she was pretty heavily resource guarding higher value treats from Aussie, and would steal treats from him. Would growl and snap if other puppies came near her while being treated in puppy class. We worked on it, and she no longer guards any food. She does guard toys, not from my Aussie or any people, but from stranger dogs for sure.

 

She was fairly heavily socialized as a puppy with sounds, smells, places, dogs, people etc. We go to a very under-used park to give them room to play fetch and stretch their legs. She is very good with my friend's two Mastiff mixes regardless of the size, but she really seems to take a strong dislike to stranger dogs. At first it was just when they were rude to her/or really sniffer her butt. She was recently spayed, so I kinda thought that would dissipate, but it has not. In fact, I would say her reactions are becoming stronger, and it takes less and less for her to tell dogs off. She responds by snapping. No growling, no barking, she does get stiff, but I can call her away. She also will go into a down stay easily, and will engage and play with me if other dogs are around. She REALLY doesn't like being sniffed on leash.

 

She isn't reactive in the sense that she doesn't ever bark or lunge on leash, and she's very cute, so people always bring their dogs right up to her. The only dogs she is truly, 100% okay with are Border Collies. Instant friends. Sometimes she's fine with other dogs, and sometimes she takes an instant dislike.

 

I guess my question is, is this something we should work on, to prevent her reactions or change her emotional state about these dogs? I just feel bad, because then people instantly think she's mean/aggressive but I don't think she ever even makes contact, I really think she just wants to be left alone. Like I said, she's happy to engage with me in classes and at dog events.

 

Thoughts? If she really is just more of a close friends dogs, that's fine, I just want to make sure there's nothing I can do to make her more comfortable.

 

Picture for cuteness.

 

[CptJack]

As far as I am concerned your dog has a right to dislike other dogs and a right not to have other dogs marched into her face or space and be expected to get along with them.

I'd work on it, but I'd work on it in the sense that I'd work on telling other people to give her space and only introduce her to dogs when it can happen slowly, appropriately, and she has the ability to say 'no'. Ie :No on leash greetings, no greetings on the street, no greeting dogs she isn't going to have regular contact and potentially an ongoing relationship with.

 

I may be biased but for me that 'Don't like you get off'? Is 200% normal and okay in my book. It's a dog being a dog and having preferences and that's. Fine.

[GentleLake]

You might find this article helpful: http://suzanneclothier.com/he-just-wants-to-say-hi#.WBEhnyRd6TI

[Shandula]

Thank you!

 

I have been telling my husband that it is fine for her to not like dogs, but he doesn't know a lot about dogs, and was concerned she was being aggressive.

 

I definitely do tell people she's not very friendly to strangers and she doesn't like meeting dogs on leash, and people are legitimately terrible at respecting that, honestly.

 

I recently got both my guys a Julius-K9 vest and put the "In-Training" patches on and that has definitely helped with people giving her more space, but some people still don't get it.

[Shandula]

You might find this article helpful: http://suzanneclothier.com/he-just-wants-to-say-hi#.WBEhnyRd6TI

 

That is the EXACT article I sent to my husband!

[CptJack]

My girl wears a harness with patches that say STOP (stop sign) No look, no touch, no eyecontact.

It helped with casual people but man that crap highlights the real jerks. I swear some of them do it on purpose.

[GentleLake]

To answer your original question, I do think this is something that you might want to continue to work with rather than just ignoring it and risking its becoming more firmly entrenched. I think all dogs benefit from their owners continuing socialization, confidence building, comfort in unusual environments and situations and social skills throughout their lives.

 

No, I don't believe that my dogs must like every other dog or person they meet, but that doesn't mean I don't continue to work with them.

[Shandula]

To answer your original question, I do think this is something that you might want to continue to work with rather than just ignoring it and risking its becoming more firmly entrenched. I think all dogs benefit from their owners continuing socialization, confidence building, comfort in unusual environments and situations and social skills throughout their lives.

 

No, I don't believe that my dogs must like every other dog or person they meet, but that doesn't mean I don't continue to work with them.

 

What would you suggest for working with her? I know if she was reactive I would find her threshold for distance and back up a bit and treat her for not reacting. Should I just have her be close to dogs, reward her, and then remove her?

[MeMeow]

I've been working with my ACD/BC mix on somewhat similar behavior, although she is also a bit nervous/fearful so we did more standard reactivity training previously. Now she is much less reactive, but can be rude if she thinks a dog is getting too close too fast or otherwise needs to be put in his place. It's a huge improvement and I do agree that she's allowed to not want to socialize with every dog she sees. But we've been cautious about things like bringing her to classes, events with other dogs, etc., and since it's really hard to guarantee her personal space bubble is respected in public I still work with her on dealing with these interactions a bit more gracefully.

 

We've basically continued the same training we were doing for her reactivity, but in closer proximity. I bring her to the outside of a dog park and we walk along the fence. As dogs come up to the fence, I will let her approach for a second, then call her away and give her a treat as soon as she makes eye contact with me. If I don't call her away, she will sometimes politely sniff noses, and other times do a little snarl/lunge move at the other dog, so I do my best to end the interaction while it's going well, and reinforce her for listening and ignoring the other dog.

 

We also do this on walks--if we're approaching a dog on a sidewalk, I will give her a treat if she turns her head from the other dog without me cuing it, or if she is staring intently and I think she's going to make a fuss, I tell her to "leave it" and reward when she makes eye contact.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Owners trying to fix non-problems create problems.

 

Donald McCaig

[Shandula]

Dear Doggers,

 

Owners trying to fix non-problems create problems.

 

Donald McCaig

 

What would you suggest? Just keep her away from non Border Collies? I guess I could leave her at home for pet festivals and stuff, although that kind of sucks for her.

[CptJack]

What would you suggest? Just keep her away from non Border Collies? I guess I could leave her at home for pet festivals and stuff, although that kind of sucks for her.

Well, I mean.

 

She's not reacting, right? Just snapping if another dog is stuffing it's nose in her face/up her butt/otherwise too close. So. Don't let them do that. I don't let ANY of my dogs interact with other dogs on leash. Or, ideally get close enough to They go all kinds of places. That's... not really an either or.

 

I have to yell at the occasional person - very occasional - but it happens. Once in a while it happens anyway and my small dog corrects someone else's (my other dogs aren't likely to do that, but the smallest is. In fact she corrected Jovi (member here)'s young BC at an agility trial last year. Total accident on both parts, but happened. Molly got corrected by an aussie while out playing disc this week (not an event, well known dog and dog friend), for being an idiot and trying to take the disc out of his mouth. I don't LET it happen on purpose, and I worry about another dog tearing her face off but someone coming into her face being met with 'no' just is not a problem for me. It isn't either you're fine in touching distance of ALL THE DOGS or you never go off leash.

 

**ETA:** And yeah, trying to 'fix' the problem can make it worse. It can easily lead to you dog liking those other dogs in her space LESS, or fixating on them more, or trusting you less, or giving fewer warnings and air snaps but getting more... emphatic about it and thereby risking doing actual damage.

[Shandula]

Well, I mean.

 

She's not reacting, right? Just snapping if another dog is stuffing it's nose in her face/up her butt/otherwise too close.

 

Exactly this. She doesn't lunge, bark, or go after dogs. Ever. She just likes to be left alone. I might just have to get more rude with people who don't get it.

[CptJack]

Exactly this. She doesn't lunge, bark, or go after dogs. Ever. She just likes to be left alone. I might just have to get more rude with people who don't get it.

 

I think that's what Donald meant by trying to fix it making it worse. Don't try to change the dog, protect the dog. I'm obviously not prefect, but I've gotten good at rude. I outright yelled at a man at lure coursing a couple of weeks ago who was leaning on the fence watching dogs run - while his own dog, on a flexi, wandered away and toward Molly's face. NOPE. Not okay.

 

Look at it this way - better them getting corrected by you than the dog getting corrected by your dog.

[urge to herd]

"I might have to get more rude with people who don't get it." Yes - this is sometimes the answer.

 

I have stepped between my dog and another dog. I have stepped between my dog and a human. I have moved my dog away from a human, reaching out to pet him. I will continue to do these things and more. Some stranger's opinion of me just does not matter. Whatever it takes to keep my dog safe - I do it.

 

It took me a while to be willing to take these actions. It also took a while to just not give a s**t what anyone else thinks about me, when it comes to keeping my dog safe.

 

I've seen enough dog fights and made my enough of my own stupid mistakes to have learned what to do to keep my dog safe.

 

And "She doesn't lunge, bark or go after dogs." Yet. You don't know what ill-mannered move by another dog is going to put her over the edge. I wouldn't take the chance.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Mark Billadeau]

Why shouldn't a dog be allowed to tell another dog to get out of its personal space? It sounds like your dog is using body language to tell other dogs to back off but the other dogs are not acknowledging and/or accepting these signals and so your dog is ratcheting up the signal.

 

Our females (currently spayed) frequently have to tell off amorous males whose owners have not noticed their boy's unwanted advancements towards mounting our girls. How else would a female dog tell a hormonal male NO means NO?

 

My 13yo likes playing with other dogs but is very clear that mounting will not be tolerated.

 

One of her 10yo daughters is very clear she does not like other dogs in her personal space. Uneducated dog owners may look at her and think she's aggressive/mean but she is very rarely in a fight with other dogs because she does not send mixed messages to other dogs.

[gcv-border]

In fact she corrected Jovi (member here)'s young BC at an agility trial last year. Total accident on both parts, but happened.

[CptJack]

In fact she corrected Jovi (member here)'s young BC at an agility trial last year. Total accident on both parts, but happened.

 

You had a quote fail, I think?

[highway61]

...but she is very rarely in a fight with other dogs because she does not send mixed messages to other dogs.

 

I have a 3 1/2 yr male who is okay with other off leash dogs but fear aggressive at the one's he doesn't know who approach him too manically. Like shandula's BC he will lunge at them snapping. He's never actually been in a fight but from what I can see is the aggressive snapping should send a pretty strong message. Yet some dogs act as if he's playing and continue instigating the snapping and before they eventually run off.

 

I understand this from puppies who are too young and haven't (yet) been taught the world isn't their personal playground but I'm always amazed at the dogs that no matter how many times my dog snaps at them, acts like its a game. Me, I'm terrified so I do my best to avoid the contact.

[gcv-border]

That was my dog - and I expect that another dog should correct them if any of my dogs inappropriately get in their face. I try not to allow that to happen, but it does. Sometimes it is just setting the rules for either playing together later or just leave me alone.

 

But I know that the general public usually jumps to the conclusion that a dog is aggressive if it snaps/growls at another. What many people also don't realize is that dog parks, pet festivals, training classes, etc. are often times of heightened stress for our dogs and they can display 'stronger' behaviors than normal.

 

My female dog came to me somewhat undersocialized, and I do take her out to see the sights and sounds, but not to interact. Her dog training class was mainly for trying with distracting dogs around, not for socializing. She can behave appropriately in the right situation, but I don't want to push her. (They best interactions she has had is at the farm where we pick up hay. The farmer has a young female BC. When Natt first saw her, Natt was all hard eye, hackles, stiff posture and raised tail. I asked him if I could let her off leash to meet because I knew that some of it was leash reactivity. His response was - sure, that's the only way they can work things out. Luckily, it took only a couple of tense seconds when they first were nose-to nose-to, then they were off and running around. Whew!

[gcv-border]

 

You had a quote fail, I think?

Yep. Using my phone which still trips me up at times. The post I meant to write with the quote is posted separately. (at least I see it on my phone.)

[Maralynn]

There is a Border Collie on my SAR team that is particular about his space bubble (he lives with two Labs and has them trained ). I think every pup/young dog who come on the team has been snapped at/corrected once by Wiley. Wiley isn't aggressive, he just has personal space rules when it comes to other dogs. If they stay 3 ft away then he's fine with them.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I have seen a few dogs who are dog language challenged and refuse to believe another dog's "Piss off!" I assume these dogs were removed too young from their mother, but that's merely assumption. In dog parks and the like, rude dogs usually belong to rude owners who may need a swift, simple correction.

 

A friend's lab used to pester June again and again -ignoring her discomfort, snarks and polite snaps - until I would intervene. One day lab was visiting and tried his "Duh, I'm an entitled dog" moves on our 125 pound sheep guarding dog. Learned the lesson upsidedown.

 

Donald McCaig

[GentleLake]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this. Internet connection problems.

 

I agree that it's perfectly acceptable -- or at least it should be -- for dogs to tell other dogs to stay out of their space, and it's good to know that your dogs reactions seem to be limited to dogs who are being rude and invading her space.

 

I'd just like to clarify that when I said I'd continue to work with a dog like that, I didn't mean I'd be trying to teach her to be a social butterfly. Not at all. But I do think you might be able to teach her some alternate behaviors that, in conjunction with some adjustments in the ways that you respond when she's confronted with dogs she doesn't like, could make the encounters a little less, um, dramatic.

 

So while you're learning to step between your dog and another that's approaching, perhaps you could teach her to step behind you at the same time, helping to reinforce the barrier between her and the other dog. IOW, instead of her waiting for that dog to approach and then her snapping at it, she could assist in creating a space where she retreats rather pushes.

 

Hope this is making sense. I've got to try to send it before I lose it. But, yes, it sounds like it's not as big an issue as it seemed like it may have been in the first post, and that she's just expressing her displeasure and asking for space. If she can learn how to avoid those confrontations, with you helping her and intervening along with her, it might make both of you more comfortable in areas where you may encounter these other dogs.

 

ETA: One of my late dogs did this on his own. He'd step behind me if another dog he didn't want to interact with approached. If the dog persisted, he'd definitely tell him, first with a very low warning growl. If the dog didn't get it or the interaction was too fast, yes, he'd snap, but for him that was a last resort. I also learned to pay attention when he stepped behind me like that so that I could block the other dog to help him avoid an interaction he didn't welcome. It's teamwork.

[Mark Billadeau]

What are you teaching your dog to communicate to the incoming dog by having it retreat behind you?

Just asking