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Frantic vs Focused


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Hello everyone!

 

My Border Collie is now 15 months old, and so we are starting to try to figure out what kind of sports we should do to keep her busy and occupied. My Aussie likes Rally quite a bit, and we recently acquired our Novice title, and we are training in agility with him.

 

I enjoy going and watching agility trials and I've noticed my Border Collie is not like those other Border Collies. She's considered "small" (I don't think she is, but everyone asks what she's mixed with), but she just isn't as...crazy? I guess. Drivey, maybe? (Note: I do see dogs similar to her in focus, but they definitely aren't as common)

 

When we train agility at home (just Flatwork for now, and easy grids with bumps, and no weaving for now) and she seems to enjoy it. She's fast, loves her tug rewards, and seems very "in the game" but she just doesn't seem "high drive" if that makes sense.

 

I guess ultimately I'm wondering if the focus/less hyperness is more common in the more "working" line BC? (Full disclosure: She isn't from stock lines, she's a goose hazing dog, and is AKC registered). Is it fine to keep doing agility or should I try to do something that requires more control and focus, like obedience or maybe even herding?

 

Thanks in advance! Picture for cuteness, My Aussie on the right, my BC in the center, and a foster I had for a couple days on the left.

post-18240-0-27844300-1476971809_thumb.jpg

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In spite of what many people may think, working-bred dogs do not tend to be "frantic" or dogs that have to be occupied *all the time*. If you are looking at AKC-registered dogs, without a working background in the close-up generations, you may be seeing dogs that have either been bred with sports in mind (and some of those breedings can produce really hyper, rather senseless, always-on-the-go, fast-reacting offspring because the breeders have selected to breed for what they consider "high drive" rather than the focused intensity that working-bred dogs are selected for) or bred without looking at the whole package - intensity and focus, athletic ability, drive, but control and the ability to "turn it off".

 

And, of course, since working-bred dogs are bred for the work and not any particular "standard" of appearance, their build and size, color and coat, and other aspects of appearance, are very variable. Many AKC people only seem to recognize a dog as a "Border Collie" if it looks like the cookie-cutter dog of the show ring and anything else "must be a mix". Trust me, I've heard that one often enough about my dogs, even the two that look pretty "classic" and obviously Border Collie.

 

As for what to do with her - do what you both enjoy, whether it's agility, nose work, rally, obedience, or learning to work livestock (which is simply, in my opinion, the ultimate thing you can do with one of these dogs as long as the dog has the aptitude for it). The key is that you both enjoy what you are doing (and, with regards to working with livestock, that you and your dog aren't "having fun" at the expense of the stock, whose welfare is the first concern).

 

PS - I watched a barrel racing competition at a rodeo. All of the teams waiting their turn were hyped up, except one. The horse and the rider on that team were just chilling out at the end of the arena with the other teams that were skittery and looking very "drivey". Guess who had the best runs and won? The team that knew when to turn it on and when to turn it off. Guess who seemed to enjoy themselves the most? The team that knew when to turn it on and when to turn it off.

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Do what you both enjoy.

 

There is no rule that says that Agility dogs have to be "frantic". In fact, I absolutely adore Agility with my moderate paced - even tempered girl.

 

I'd say explore and find what you both love and run with it.

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Thank you very much for your responses!

 

I've been told several times by people at trials "For a Border Collie, she doesn't have the drive for agility" which I think I always fundamentally disagreed with. I've also been told several times that she has too much eye/too sheepdoggy for agility, which really bothers me. Of course she has "eye", she's a Border Collie.

 

That dog on the left in the picture I attached is very frantic. No control. I couldn't do any training at all with him, despite trying lots of reinforcers. Poor guy. All the energy, none of the focus.

 

I would LOVE to find a herding trainer for her (so if you know anyone in Southern Ontario or Michigan, let me know!). My Aussie would be terrible at herding, I think he would just chase and not herd, so he will stick to agility.

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Confession time: I enjoy sitting on the sidelines with Tessa (my even-tempered girl) and watch the Border Collies run at trials. Some of them (not all), are a bit frantic and they sometimes take whole jumps down or make up their own course.


I sit there and give Tessa a hug and say, "I LOVE that I am here with you". (Of course, I also seriously appreciate watching the Border Collies who are fast and have their head in the game!!)

 

I am going to get my just deserts for that sometime very soon, but give me a dog who can think while running Agility any day of the week!!!

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If you are looking at AKC-registered dogs, without a working background in the close-up generations, you may be seeing dogs that have either been bred with sports in mind (and some of those breedings can produce really hyper, rather senseless, always-on-the-go, fast-reacting offspring because the breeders have selected to breed for what they consider "high drive" rather than the focused intensity that working-bred dogs are selected for) or bred without looking at the whole package - intensity and focus, athletic ability, drive, but control and the ability to "turn it off".

 

Sadly this is all too often true of ABCA registered dogs as well. It doesn't matter which registry, there are far too many people breeding border collies who aren't breeding with good stock working potential in mind. Many sporter collies are bred by ABCA breeders, though not necessarily (and not usually) the same people breeding for stock work.

 

But, yeah, do what you and your dog enjoy. If she does really well in agility you just might inspire people not to be looking for dogs that are being bred with such hyperactivity that they're hard to live with outside the agility ring. :rolleyes:

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Nothing new here, just repeating the advice above - do what both of you love.

 

I have seen both frantic and focused border collies at agility trials. I am not sure that the frantic ones are any crazier or drop any more bars than hyped up dogs of other breeds (labs, Goldens, etc). It is a pleasure to watch a team that works well together - regardless of the speed.

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I've got 4 dogs in one that has impeccable working breeding.

 

The dog that is keen to work sheep but can be tied up away from me to watch others working.

 

The pet dog that will chill until I move then he wants to know what we're going to do.

 

The Obedience dog that is reasonably calm around the rings and focussed under test.

 

And the Agility dog that is totally off his head if asked to queue by the ring but 110% focus immediately the lead comes off.

 

The one constant is that he wants to work, doesn't matter at what. That's not the same thing as saying that he has to be working all the time, just that he would if the opportunity arose. I just love that he never needs to be motivated by me.

 

Only you know your dog and what level you want to achieve and you've no idea whether anyone who has commented on her has the slightest clue what they are talking about. Go for it and prove them wrong.

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My adult border collie is very chilled at home, is a great pet and good company. Waiting in line for agility I keep him calm and focused, once we walk to the line all bets are off, he is fast, driven, intense and if I get my timing wrong hell ... Agility trials can bring the worst out in Border collies, it's a fast game, full of fast moving dogs, you will find many of those dogs are mellow away from the setting.

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I agree my girl is always ready for anything. She will chill around the house, but if I move she is right there seeing if I may possibly need her for something. On the agility course she went from being a shy moderately paced dog to one of the hyper bullet dogs you typically see, but remove her from that setting and she chills out again

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My adult border collie is very chilled at home, is a great pet and good company. Waiting in line for agility I keep him calm and focused, once we walk to the line all bets are off, he is fast, driven, intense and if I get my timing wrong hell ... Agility trials can bring the worst out in Border collies, it's a fast game, full of fast moving dogs, you will find many of those dogs are mellow away from the setting.

 

This is very much the case with Molly. Molly actually really intimidates some of the people who are very experienced agility handlers. *SHE* is in many ways the odd dog out amongst the BC we're around most often. She isn't frantic, not from the inside view, but I can see how it would look that way from the outside looking in - more so for someon inexperiencd with agility, and doubled and tripled by her own 'greenness'.

 

What she is, is very, very high intensity, very fast, and very seriously in love with the game. The result of THAT is that when I'm late? She either spins back toward me or says 'to heck with you then' and makes up her own course. She WANTS input, she WANTS to work with me, but she wants to play that game, come heck or high water. If I'm not going to get with it and make that happen in a way that works? She's going to make up her own course, take what's in front of her, or whirl back around toward me and stare like she's demon possessed until I can redirect (or just plain direct!) her. She's just not pulling any punches with me, or giving me any allowances on the agility field.

 

My other dog? Very consistent, reasonably fast, but her primary motivation is doing what she's told and making me happy. Very forgiving girl - like loop back to take obstacles when I cue so last she's already PAST them. Great at agility, Qs pretty consistently, and all around awesome and fun. But she's playing agility because she loves me and it's a happy fun game for us. It's all about playing with me. She's happy and loves it, but the drive there is 'I love mom'. The value in the equation for her is ME. Not agility for agility's sake. She'll run for no one else. Just turn around and come back to me.

 

Molly? She's out there for the game itself - and she doesn't consider it 'play'. It's not a tail up happy wagging kind of thing. It's head down, tail down, GO. She'll run with a complete stranger she may even be a little afraid of in another setting. She loves me, she's biddable, but she loves NOTHING more than the work itself. So I either do her justice and tell her what to do in a timely manner, clearly and in a way for her to understand and ample space for her to execute or she's gone.

 

Not frantic.

 

And not hyper. At home the dog's a couch potato who sleeps until noon. She'll turn it on for a frisbee much the same as she will agility, won't stop until she's stopped, but otherwise? Seriously, dog fur rug about 22.5 hours a day.

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You don't have to be winners to train sensibly, compete with happiness, and enjoy each other. It's the journey and the bond that count, not ribbons or titles. Just my opinion, of course.

This is so very true, at my club we encourage people to try the game, they might never compete but it is a fun activity to play with your dogs and build a much deeper bond. My first agility border collie was not going to ever win anything, he played because I asked him, I learned loads, met some great people because he loved trials and made friends where ever we went. Your experience at trials is going to depend on the organization, you are going to see a much wider variety of border collies at a USDAA trial than an AKC one. NADAC and CPE are much more laid back, NADAC does not allow tugging in and out of the ring, so it keeps some of the intensity down. There is lots of different flavors in agility, you just have to sample and find the fit for you.

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Unfortunately many dog owners and people in general have wrong information that is continually perpetuated by what is typically seen. This is true of many breeds. Terriers are aggressive and bark, labs are laid back, and border collies wound tight and hyper, bounce off the walls...

Most of the human populations do not have high enough stands for their childrens behavior much less their dogs. If whatever they see is "normal" that gives them an out - they do not have have to fix it. They do not have to put forth the effort, consistency and time to fix it. They do not have to find someone to help them fix it...Unfortunately this is true of pet professionals like vets, trainer, vet techs also so even when owners reach out they are given inadequate advise. All to often these days dogs are given meds instead of being Taught and Required to act mannerly. I hear it tons - he does not like ..... so he.... EXCUSES.

Border Collies can indeed be over the top, hyper, frantic, bounces off the walls BUT with proper time spent, consistency, high expectations and the mental and physical activity the dog requires they are great at channeling that energy into useful/fun activities. Not unlike young children - give them rules and structure and consistency and you get good behavior. It does not just happen!!

Are there dogs with screw loose - yes. Take 2 pups from working parents raise them in different households - the results can be very very different. I watched a 1.5 yr old girl this summer from my litter, raised 2 sisters and have the parents. The dog was out of control, the owners could not find a kennel that would take her. They had some trouble with her guarding resources young and did not take my suggestions on how to Fix it. Went to training classes which they were dismissed from, went to animal behaviorist that gave them 'drugs' to fix it... Took me a day to make great progress after 1.5 yrs of practicing the wrong behavior. Was it fixed no but 80% better. I simply let her know there were rules and expected behavior here. She had a simple choice do what I wanted she was rewarded do it the way she was used to she got in trouble.

When people are Shown how well their dog can behave they are floored. I took 4 dogs to a university to provide a herding demo. Had a 7 mo old, a 1.5 yr, and 2 six yr olds. First time the 7 mo old has worked sheep off the place, first time in crowd, first time in a classroom, first seeing other ethic people...Could not have asked for a better, well behaved girl. Did she work sheep as well, not quite - she was a bit nervous and fast but no problem. Second time the 1.5 yr old worked away from home, in a class room ect - same thing. I expect a lot of my dogs but put in the time and training for us to be successful. People watching still commented that they did not have a bc because they were hyper - I said does that 7 mo old pup in the crowd of people watching sheep worked by me and another dog look hyper? Dogs will rise to the occasion if we have high expectations of them.

We just need to educate people to not accept the norm simply because it is the norm. Dont go in with preconceived notions - i bet if you enjoy the activity and make it fun your dog will be all in.

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Dear Doggers,

 

There's much wisdom in Denice's post but I particularly note; "I simply let her know there were rules and expected behavior here. She had a simple choice do what I wanted she was rewarded do it the way she was used to she got in trouble."

 

and "Dogs will rise to the occasion if we have high expectations of them."

 

 

Donald McCaig

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I think that many of the issues that we see in the ring with herding dogs is that the handler is too slow for the dog and this leads to frustration and much of the hyper behavior that we see in the ring.

 

I think that some of this can be mitigated by putting distance between the handler and the dog and giving the dog permission to move away from the handler. Remember Border Collies can be very pressure sensitive. And a dog can't nip and jump on its handler, if the handler is 10 feet away. Our desire for control can cause a lack of control in the ring.

 

Now back to your dog....Having lost my first agility dog over 4 months ago, I can say with complete confidence that none of this (the titles, the ribbons, the crappy runs, the good runs, what people say) will matter while you are nursing a terminally ill dog and after the dog is gone. Follow your heart and don't pay any attention to what people say and do.

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Everyone has different experiences.

I had one (ABCA) dog who was definitely "driven" to do agility - but otherwise was a dream to live with.

I have another now who is definitely "driven" to do agility - and ditto. His "off switch" is impeccable.

And the next one, a rescue, who is a love, but definitely isn't "over the top" "frantic" or "crazy." However, now that she's been competing for about two years, she has gained confidence and speed (and lost some consistency- LOL!). So - give it time.

This last one loves being with me, and I suspect initially did OK at agility because of that. But she has gotten sooooo much better, and now I think she actually does like it a lot.

 

And this, once more: "Dogs will rise to the occasion if we have high expectations of them."

 

diane

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You don't have to be winners to train sensibly, compete with happiness, and enjoy each other. It's the journey and the bond that count, not ribbons or titles. Just my opinion, of course.

 

I concur wholeheartedly!!!

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Thank you for your replies everyone! We will keep training agility, she likes it, I like it, and we enjoy spending the time and working together. We will check out some other sport venues as well, to really find out what clicks the best for us!

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I think the word 'drive' is weird. It means different things to different people. I think when people talk about drive they mash energy and focus into one word, but they are two different things

 

My border collie from a working / sport line has high energy. The first time she saw sheep she just ran in circles around them like a maniac (which was kind of hilarious). Her high energy can make her jittery before training or in new situations, making her difficult to train at times.

 

She has a lot of focus at the start of training, but when she gets the least bit bored, she has no focus anymore. Also quite tricky, because the sport that motivates her one month, can be a bit boring to her the next. So we try to do different things to keep it fun for her and for us.

 

This is how I like to interpret my dog's behaviour, not saying it's the way everyone should. In your case I guess you have to switch it up, and see what your dog likes to do. I think focus can be trained, but creating more energy is probably a bit more difficult, that to me is more in the nature of the dog.

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I think the word 'drive' is weird. It means different things to different people. I think when people talk about drive they mash energy and focus into one word, but they are two different things

 

That is very true. Some do interpret "drive" as "high energy". But, having worked with a dog who was high energy, but easily overstimulated (that could be seen as hyper), I would never have called that overstimulated "high" as drive. It was actually a problem, not an asset.

 

Personally, I think of "drive" more along the lines of a high level of inherent desire. Not necessarily "natural" desire, although it can be, but drive can also be built in some dogs in some circumstances.

 

I would actually say that my Tessa has a good amount of drive for Agility, although she is a moderate paced dog. I don't have to do a thing in the ring to keep her head in the game, I don't have to convince her that she should want to play - she really has something inside of herself that gets her "in", so to speak. We can just go out and run. People would not look at her and call her a "high drive" dog, but in a sense I consider her to be one because she has an innate desire to run Agility. She isn't intense about it, she isn't running like a bat out of you-know-where, but she does have drive.

 

Others would say, "absolutely not, what you are talking about is not drive". OK. Really, we do all kind of define "drive" in different ways.

 

I believe that Bandit is shaping up to be a high drive dog, but he is definitely not hyper, and his focus is a work in progress. Still, I see that innate desire to be in the game starting to develop in him. This is more than just, "I want it", although it can start that way - the desire is more to be an active partner in the game.

 

Really, I find drive to be difficult to describe.

 

It isn't the same as focus, desire, energy, attention, speed, biddability, or independence, but it can include any or all of those in some sense . . . .

 

It is interesting to consider.

 

Still, I say to any dog and handler team who enjoys Agility and can play safely - don't ever let anyone tell you that Agility isn't for you because your dog doesn't have "drive". Go play for your enjoyment. When you look back at the end, that is all that really will matter.

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