Jump to content
BC Boards
moosikins

Come Bye Border Collie Rescue

Recommended Posts

Hi all!

 

We've been so busy lately that I haven't been on here much at all, but wondering if any has any experience with this rescue? We're looking into getting a second dog and they've got a litter of 3 month old females, one of whom looks just like our Calypso!

 

We submitted our application and are now waiting to hear back from the group. The foster didn't say anything about anyone claiming any of the girls yet but did say to hurry and submit the app, so I'm hoping they're still available to pick from when we're approved (I'm hopeful because I believe we can and will provide a really good forever home for one of these girls).

 

I'm nervous though...The application was detailed. No more so than any other rescue, but it feels so different being on this side of it! We didn't worry about picking up Calypso because I was a volunteer at the shelter where we got her so she was practically thrown into my arms.

 

Update on Cal: She's now a Therapy and Crisis dog with The Go Team! She passed her CGC easily, and then aced the CGC-A (Community) and CGC-U (Urban), as well as the Crisis dog portion of the testing. She can ride escalators and elevators calmly, our team can board and seat 30 dogs on a city bus in 57 seconds (no dogs in the aisle, everyone's paws and tails tucked safely away), walk around a wailing fire truck with lights and sirens on full blast (ugh, neither of us wants to repeat that experience), greeting a fully geared up fireman (panic eyes and barking quickly turned into full out melting to the floor for belly rubs), and a bunch of other really interesting situational experiences. We plan to do reading at the library with children and visiting nursing homes. Cal even did great when one of the elderly ladies offered her a medicine cup full of pills. She just sat and looked up at me waiting for a go ahead, so I gave her a treat instead! AND she's been off leash more and more with truly excellent recall!!! I love just saying "Cal, too far" and she comes trotting back closer or saying "Come" and she comes right to my side!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No useful information for you, but she looks great! And wow on all the training experience! I'm hoping to pursue therapy work with Livi someday, but she's still a brainless teenager so we've got a while to go. Slowly, slowly.

 

That picture of Cal reminds me of a dog we picked up for our local Border Collie Rescue back in July -- mostly black and very fluffy! It's a good look. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any insights on what a home visit looks like? What kinds of things do they look for? I'm guessing that they want to see that the application was truthful (fenced yard, landlord actually approves a dog, etc) and that there's a fully fenced, reasonably sized yard and that the current dog has food, water, and appropriate diversions/toys.

 

I wonder if they'd do a Skype walkthrough with me? It seems that we're about 4 or so hours out of their typical radius.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know Come Bye rescue (other side of the country), but I can speak to the home visit experience. First, our rescue has already called your 3 personal references and your vet reference before we do a home visit. The foster parent will also have already talked at length with the potential adoptee about the dog/puppy (personality, good and bad habits, etc.) and their ability to handle such a dog. I have seen very, very few applicants rejected based on a home visit because if there is a rejection, it has usually already happened. The home visit is just (hopefully) a confirmation of what we already know.

 

So - I go into a home visit with the thought that the dog will be placed in the home. If any red flags pop up, I talk with the potential adoptees about fixing them. i.e. cats can not be free fed when a dog is in the house unless there is a dog-proof barrier; how close to the road is the house (important for certain dogs not to be close to a road) and a myriad of other minor issues. Our rescue does not require a fence if we feel certain that the adoptee will be outside whenever the dog is outside. [As a foster mom, I will not adopt any dog to a household with an invisible fence, but other volunteers with our rescue will. We are allowed to do what we believe is best for the dog.] We do not expect houses to be scrupulously clean. [if so, I wonder about the adopter. ;-) ]

 

If the home is outside our network of volunteers, we usually contact a local (to the adopter) person who will do a home visit. This person could be from another local rescue, or a vet tech, etc.

 

Good Luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add to what Jovi said, the rescue I volunteer with is also looking to have a one on one conversation with the potential adopter(s) to see how they interact with current pets in the home, whether those pets seem relaxed, happy and healthy, and to have an opportunity to discuss expectations, training philosophy, etc. We're especially interested in seeing how any children in the home interact with pets and visitors. These face to face conversations can often tell us much more than what people write in their applications because we're able to see facial expressions and body language, and in the case of children, how they behave. And it can be a good opportunity for an applicant to ask questions about what to expect and address any questions or concerns they may have about the process as well.

 

We also take one of our own dogs along with us to see how people interact with them and also how any current pets in the home interact with another dog coming in.

 

That said, each rescue will have somewhat different criteria. One of my pet sitting clients who's looking for a new dog just told me of a home visit where the volunteer insisted on looking in all the closets! She said people can hide animals there that they hadn't revealed in their application. Dunno if that's the rescue's policy or just a paranoid volunteer, but I guess just about anything's possible. :rolleyes:

 

Best wishes as you embark on this exciting venture!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, thanks for all the information! Another question and I know this one is tricky...

 

How do rescues feel about e-collar training (specifically the static collar, not a shock collar)? They did ask about training and I noted our trainer, Sit Means Sit. Our local group emphasizes understanding your dog above all else and Callie is (hopefully obviously) a happy dog - she comes to us readily to put her collar on and at the moment, we're at a place where we almost never actually use the collar even though she wears it when we're training or working on therapy dog experiences. 99% of the time it's set to vibrate and when it's not, it's on a 2 out of 7 which I can't even feel (but we know she's a very sensitive dog). I tried the collar on myself while I was pregnant last time, so I honestly believe it does not hurt her (it certainly has the ability to, but we never even approach those levels on the remote).

 

The ultimate goal is to have her completely collar free and she's making awesome progress. Many of the places we visit with the therapy dog group specifically request that the dog does not wear an e-collar and we all take them off, turn them off, and do not rely on them. It's a training tool, not a method to control the dog.

 

But I'm worried that e-collars have an inherently bad reputation and the rescue will reject us outright for making that decision. I didn't want to lie or skirt the issue because I wanted to be as honest as possible in the application - we do plan to train our next dog with the same head trainer and the same technique. We'll adjust where the dog needs it, like we did with Cal and being a sensitive dog in need of a lot of petting, treats, and emphatic "GOOD GIRL!"s throughout training, but that is going to be our training approach.

 

To end this stressful question on a positive note, I'll share a quick story from a recent training group class we attended. I had been home from work with Callie and the baby for two weeks even though I normally work full time. The day I went back to work, my husband stayed home with them instead. They met me at the SMS facility for group class in time for it to start and Cal and I went in (I've been working on the therapy dog stuff with her and I'm her certified handler...My husband will train with her during the next round of classes) and she was just so ridiculously moody - mopey, lazy, and kept flopping over onto her side instead of listening. I tried giving her water and taking her out for a walk, I tried sitting her next to her best friend to see if he'd perk her up. I did a full body, snoot to tail check to make sure she wasn't hurting, etc. And then I realized...I'd been gone all day and I hadn't really greeted her properly since we were running late to training. So we sat down in a corner of the room and she literally crawled into my lap. I wrapped her up in my arms for a good 5 minutes and she just laid there (I was sitting there really hoping that she wasn't feeling ill and thinking of how I was going to figure out what was going on if she didn't perk up and deciding which vet to call). Then she got bored, kicked me away, licked my face, and we continued class as if nothing had happened and her attitude returned to totally normal and perfectly happy.

 

Apparently she just needed a big, long hug.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love love love mostly black BCs! We have an entire "collection" of look alike dogs on Instagram - we call them "doppledogs". If you're interested, check out @bcmix_doppledogs there's a collage of many of them. I think her most identical ones are @charlielovespizza and @crazycoco_bcmix

No useful information for you, but she looks great! And wow on all the training experience! I'm hoping to pursue therapy work with Livi someday, but she's still a brainless teenager so we've got a while to go. Slowly, slowly.

 

That picture of Cal reminds me of a dog we picked up for our local Border Collie Rescue back in July -- mostly black and very fluffy! It's a good look. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do rescues feel about e-collar training (specifically the static collar, not a shock collar)?

 

That will depend on the rescue.

 

What's the difference between a static collar and a shock collar . . . besides renaming it to make it sound less objectionable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is great that you are honest, and the rescue should be willing to see your dog and all of your accomplishments together. Many people never do any training with their dogs past sit and down, you seem like an engaged, active dog owner with higher expectations and goals than most have for their dogs. I wish you lots of luck with the rescue!

 

Would the rescue think invisible fence users are abusive? There are millions of them in use on properties in the US. I am not one of them, but they can be a good tool for a lot of owners who would otherwise let their dogs run loose. Like my neighbors do (we have twice suggested they have an electric fence installed or the new wireless ones) and my in-laws used to as well before finally getting an invisible fence. I know their neighbors have to be happy they no longer let the dogs wander all over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly can't think of any rescue that I have worked with in any capacity (albeit it has been a while) who would adopt to anyone using any sort of e-collar - including 'static' collar. So that may be a problem, but you're right - lying about it would be a mistake.

 

And many, many, who would not adopt to a home that plans to rely on an invisible fence. Some who will adopt to homes without fences, but many fewer who plans to use an invisible fence for containment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A static collar is a tap not a shock. I've tried both and the shock collar distinctly hurts. I will try to find a good article describing the difference - I can't explain it.

 

Donald - We train with one of the franchises and we're a really small group. The owner of the franchise and his son are the only two trainers and we are now friends with both of them. The owner has a medical background and is now following his passion. He was a trainer for several years with another nearby city's franchise before opening his own about 2 years ago. I know there's criticism of SMS out there and I've read it all. I'm sure those reviews are accurate but I know for a fact that the training approach works when it's done correctly - and to me "works" means that my dog's personality is unchanged, she's not fearful, she enjoys her life and her training, and she also listens.

 

It's upsetting to hear that they may reject us because of the collar but again, I'm not lying to get a dog. That's just not right! If this doesn't pan out, we'll keep our eyes on the shelter where Calypso came from and other humane societies because we can offer a great forever home to a dog and we'd love another BC. The attitude drives me crazy, but I can't imagine not having the sass either!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Ms. Moosikins,

 

I do not respect Fred Hassan nor his training methods. Many of his earliest disciples have abandoned him and them. That said, used properly, the ecollar can be a useful - if limited -training tool. I have used them and have recommended them in certain life or death circumstances. Very few retrievers or bird dogs are trained without them.

 

The biggest problem with ecollars is their easy availablity to civilians with no timing who cannot read a dog. Despite my qualms about Mr. Hassan, his disciples are (or were when I was more interested in this) capable trainers. So this problem with the ecollar likely doesn't apply to your trainers or you.

 

Two other problems might apply.

 

You speak of wanting her to be "collar free". She already is collar free until you put one on her.

Border Collies are the most trainable dogs. They want to work with you. While I can see arguments for using ecollars on difficult to train breeds (Jack Russell, Maremma, Russian wolfhound etc) to obedience work which makes no genetic sense to the breed, what's the point of using them for routine, easily trained obedience with a breed that is willing to do whatever you ask?

 

I know some of the top ecollar trainers in the country. Their dogs are not collar free. Perhaps the dog could be but its owner, used to that particular form of remote control cannot give it up.

 

The second reason is second hand from two terrific allbreed pet dog trainers who once swore by the collars but quit depending on them. When I asked "why"? they told me dogs trained exclusively with the ecollar remained inside the bubble of what had been trained, they never learned to deal with the subtle, complex, changing real world. I don't wish to do ALL the thinking for my dog.

 

Ecollar enthusiasts argue that they aren't as necessarily cruel as critics assert and the enthusiasts are correct. I've seen happy, confident dogs trained on ecollars. I've also seen dogs whose lives were ruined off or oncollar by trainers who wanted more control than was fair to the dog.

 

Donald McCaig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But is that because they think the fence is abusive or because of the many other reasons invisible fences may not be suitable for the dog they are applying for? I have seen on GHF's adoptable page, dogs listed as okay for invisible fencing. To me they are a great example of a border collie rescue and they seem to not be morally against them (though I am sure that is not their preference and the dogs were most likely trained to it in their previous homes). Of course the fences pose many other issue such as easy escape, other animals/people getting into the yard, poor training of the boundaries leading to frequent escapes, and so on. I just never understand the emotional response by some to e-collars but not to invisible fences. And I am not even a user of or really a big lover of the fences. I don't want to veer the conversation off of the topic though. I can certainly understand why a breed specific rescue would not want to adopt to a home that uses an e-collar. I definitely think you will have better luck with a municipal shelter or humane society/SPCA type of place. Our training methods grow with each dog and I think you may find that you will not need a collar for the next one.

 

And like Donald said, I too know a very well known e-collar trainer, one who travels the country now giving seminars and is quite respected by many similar trainers. His own personal working dog (his Mal who he used as demonstration) wore the collar always. I am sure his dog could do all the same things without the collar, but it was always on.

And many, many, who would not adopt to a home that plans to rely on an invisible fence. Some who will adopt to homes without fences, but many fewer who plans to use an invisible fence for containment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying I, personally, have an issue with it - to be clear. There are reasons I'm not in rescue anymore (and it is not because I dislike rescue, either).


From my understanding the invisible fence thing is less because it's abusive and more because they can be really really crap at containing dogs, and often that the dogs can get OUT in a rush but are unable to get back IN, and potential for failure.

 

The e-collar thing is a different can of worms.

 

 

But is that because they think the fence is abusive or because of the many other reasons invisible fences may not be suitable for the dog they are applying for? I have seen on GHF's adoptable page, dogs listed as okay for invisible fencing. To me they are a great example of a border collie rescue and they seem to not be morally against them (though I am sure that is not their preference and the dogs were most likely trained to it in their previous homes). Of course the fences pose many other issue such as easy escape, other animals/people getting into the yard, poor training of the boundaries leading to frequent escapes, and so on. I just never understand the emotional response by some to e-collars but not to invisible fences. And I am not even a user of or really a big lover of the fences. I don't want to veer the conversation off of the topic though. I can certainly understand why a breed specific rescue would not want to adopt to a home that uses an e-collar. I definitely think you will have better luck with a municipal shelter or humane society/SPCA type of place. Our training methods grow with each dog and I think you may find that you will not need a collar for the next one.

 

And like Donald said, I too know a very well known e-collar trainer, one who travels the country now giving seminars and is quite respected by many similar trainers. His own personal working dog (his Mal who he used as demonstration) wore the collar always. I am sure his dog could do all the same things without the collar, but it was always on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rescue that I used to be associated with would not adopt to a home that used an e-collar.

 

If a potential adopter (PA) had an invisible fence we asked how they trained their previous or current dog to stay in the yard. Did they use the shock? Or did they boundary train and use the tone? We would then have a discussion with the (PA) about what we allowed for use with our dogs. We would deny or end the process if people would indicate that they would use the shock. If they seemed agreeable or did not use the shock we would proceed with a home visit. Our contract specifically stated that shock collars were not allowed to be used on the adopted dog. (I realize that there is very little that we could do once a dog was placed.)

 

For the record, this rescue would adopt to homes without fences - we felt that the foster home would make the right decision about whether their specific foster dog would require a fence or not.

 

As for home visits, rescues often network for "out of area" adopters - so the person that may do the home visit could be from another rescue going on behalf of the rescue you applied with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your observations are accurate and I agree with a lot of them, that's why we had to feel out our actual trainers before committing to SMS. We have one of the best groups I could imagine! I'm always hesitant to recommend the e-collar to new dog owners who don't, like you said, have the ability to read a dog.

 

We actually did a year of training, admittedly with less commitment to daily training, with Cal before starting SMS. She really responds well to the constant feedback aspect of it. She's an attentive but very, very stubborn dog with quite a lot of attitude (she is not one of the "aim to please" dogs. Sensitive as the breed suggests but certainly not an easy to train dog) so it's hard to break into her world to gain her commitment long enough to do any training. She's treat motivated but that lasts a total of 5 minutes and then she's absolutely done. Toys do nothing to excite her. There is virtually nothing that is her high value treat except Whimzees but she goes completely insane for those and we hit the opposite problem, psycho dog that can't focus on anything BUT teh Whimzee.

 

The collar is a really useful tool at redirecting her towards me and then we train together. I want her to direct her attention herself and that's where we're headed with collar-free. We build to behaviors and commands with the collar's help and then she will take over from there and like Donald said, the risk is that the trainer doesn't give up the control. We do give up control...She needs to think and act for herself. We are training her to moderate her own behavior - See a crosswalk? Sit. See a squirrel? Don't chase. See a child/dog/car? Sit or Down and politely observe. Meet a new dog? Be polite in an approach. I can and do control those behaviors with the remote but more and more we're foregoing the remote and working on the exact same behaviors and she knows what I expect and my repetition of the command becomes the correction. Example: At a recent outdoor mall adventure, she walked everywhere with me at a constant "heel". When there weren't people around me, I tell her "break" and she wanders away. I let her sniff, jump on stuff, etc. Then when I see people, I tell her "come" and "heel" and she rejoins me at my side. As we passed people, she stayed in her "heel" without needing a reminder but started reaching out with her nose. Since she was leashed, I tugged her back to me and repeated "heel". She quit sniffing up their shorts. This was all without the collar. Before, she was too invested in bum rushing them to pay me any mind - now she knows that heel means "stay with me and don't touch anyone".

 

Her recall, without the collar, is absolutely fantastic lately. She gets that "Come" means all the time, not just when she feels like it and I can actually see her dragging her mind out of her "in the zone" focus on her nemesis (the squirrel) when I call her into the house (she never wears the collar in the fenced yard on her psycho dog time). And again, I seriously think that anyone not willing to tap themselves on a higher setting with the remote should never place one on his or her dog. My next step is to go to group class and see if anyone notices that she isn't wearing her collar.

 

I'm still looking for a good article on the e-collar vs. shock. Gosh, collars are unpopular. :( I promise I adore my dog and we're doing this humanely!

 

Dear Ms. Moosikins,

 

I do not respect Fred Hassan nor his training methods. Many of his earliest disciples have abandoned him and them. That said, used properly, the ecollar can be a useful - if limited -training tool. I have used them and have recommended them in certain life or death circumstances. Very few retrievers or bird dogs are trained without them.

 

The biggest problem with ecollars is their easy availablity to civilians with no timing who cannot read a dog. Despite my qualms about Mr. Hassan, his disciples are (or were when I was more interested in this) capable trainers. So this problem with the ecollar likely doesn't apply to your trainers or you.

 

Two other problems might apply.

 

You speak of wanting her to be "collar free". She already is collar free until you put one on her.

Border Collies are the most trainable dogs. They want to work with you. While I can see arguments for using ecollars on difficult to train breeds (Jack Russell, Maremma, Russian wolfhound etc) to obedience work which makes no genetic sense to the breed, what's the point of using them for routine, easily trained obedience with a breed that is willing to do whatever you ask?

 

I know some of the top ecollar trainers in the country. Their dogs are not collar free. Perhaps the dog could be but its owner, used to that particular form of remote control cannot give it up.

 

The second reason is second hand from two terrific allbreed pet dog trainers who once swore by the collars but quit depending on them. When I asked "why"? they told me dogs trained exclusively with the ecollar remained inside the bubble of what had been trained, they never learned to deal with the subtle, complex, changing real world. I don't wish to do ALL the thinking for my dog.

 

Ecollar enthusiasts argue that they aren't as necessarily cruel as critics assert and the enthusiasts are correct. I've seen happy, confident dogs trained on ecollars. I've also seen dogs whose lives were ruined off or oncollar by trainers who wanted more control than was fair to the dog.

 

Donald McCaig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TL;DR - We know it's a tool with limited capability and we're working hard to outgrow the collar together. The things the collared dogs can do are impressive...but how much better is it when the dog can do all the cool stuff under her own control!? <3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going back to the home visit question, the rescue I volunteer with is mostly looking for the answer to one question: would I be willing to let my personal dog stay in this home? Sure, they check things like fences and potential hazards and how everyone behaves and whether or not the application was honest. But mostly they just want a general feel that you're decent folks with a suitable home.

 

I would guess that "my" rescue would be at least skeptical about an e-collar. They advocate positive training methods, and e-collars are one of those things that are often abused. On the other hand, they might be willing to hear what you have to say and make an individual decision. If there's concern from the rescue you're applying with, maybe you could ask if they'd be willing to observe you and Cal working together and make a decision based on what they see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I so hope so. I'm confident that anyone would want their dog living with me, training preferences aside. I'm really holding out hope that they'll send someone to do a home visit before a decision is reached and that person would report back to them about our positive environment all around. I'd be willing to show exactly how we train, I'm proud of how well we're doing and I have no qualms about admitting that I use an e-collar responsibly!

 

One of the volunteers responded to my email inquiry about home visits and being out of their range and noted that they have other rescues they're partnered with that can send someone! I've never wanted someone to come scrutinize my home and family more! I keep staring at those pup's pics...

 

Check out these adorable faces: http://www.comebyebcrescue.org/animals/browse?special=Puppies

The black one obviously looks just like Cal but they're all SO CUTE. Judging by pictures alone, Clover looks just like Cal in terms of personality so...mischevious, attitude-y, sassy, and wild and so does Mabel with those playful eyes. The other two appear a little more chill. Willa looks curious and friendly, and Shandy could totally be a cuddler!

 

Going back to the home visit question, the rescue I volunteer with is mostly looking for the answer to one question: would I be willing to let my personal dog stay in this home? Sure, they check things like fences and potential hazards and how everyone behaves and whether or not the application was honest. But mostly they just want a general feel that you're decent folks with a suitable home.

 

I would guess that "my" rescue would be at least skeptical about an e-collar. They advocate positive training methods, and e-collars are one of those things that are often abused. On the other hand, they might be willing to hear what you have to say and make an individual decision. If there's concern from the rescue you're applying with, maybe you could ask if they'd be willing to observe you and Cal working together and make a decision based on what they see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aw... precious. :wub:

 

When we adopted Livi we had applied with two rescues (informing both of them that was the case). One of them got someone out pretty immediately for a home visit. When I talked to the other they said if we already had our approval from the first, there was no reason to do it twice since they both look for the same things. Makes sense to me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many, if not all, of the local rescues will not adopt to a home that uses a shock collar. In fact, many won't allow the local shock jocks to be volunteer trainers.

 

I do think that the users of these "tools" need to be honest with themselves and their clients. A "tap" is a shock, I would imagine similar to the sensation that we receive with static electricity. The devices don't work without batteries, which generate the electric current.

 

If the sensation (eg the shock) delivered by these devices was pleasant or even neutral for the dog, they would not change behavior.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...