Come Bye Border Collie Rescue

[waffles]

In my area we have one training facility that uses e-collars, along with treats, prong collars and such. The owner is the one I referenced before who appears to be quite famous in the last few years and is well known here for taking on the dogs that other trainers won't.

 

Anyhow they regularly take on foster dogs from a couple local rescues and the city shelter for training-allowing their foster homes to train with the dog for free. Typically pit bull type dogs that struggle with something like dog aggression, inability to walk in public, a crazy lack of manners, etc. basically the really hard to adopt dogs.

 

I know most rescues would not be open to using their services and would not adopt to someone who uses e collars. Many rescues in the area I have heard will not adopt to you if you have used their services (which is quite silly since they are not a shock collar only type place).

 

But I wanted to chime in and say not all rescues are completely against them. I would guess though, that most border collie rescues would be.

[alligande]

The rescue I volunteered (border collie only) with would not approve an adoption to a home where an e-collar was going to be used, if the home had used one in the past and did not plan on using one with their new dog that would be fine, they also did not like invisible fences for many reasons including the collar. They would adopt to a home without a fence depending on the dog and family and how they planned to manage the situation.

[Cass C]

I have been training and being mentored by a positive reinforcement trainer. During this time I have been helping out with a reactive dog/focus class, in the past 6 months alone I have seen 4 dogs coming from SMS facilities that were completely broken. 1 became super reactive after taking a SMS obedience class, 2 became terrified of everything (especially clickers which make a similar noise to a collar about to shock), the other refused to work with its owner without a shock collar on and cowered whenever the owner reached for the dogs regular collar. All were herding/ typically sensitive breeds. The trainer I'm working with says this is rather common with those types of dogs and SMS methods. From my experience even the focus issues you describe could be fixed with positive reinforcement, it just takes more patience and work than e-collars.

 

I'm sure you aren't doing this training with no concern for your dog, but I can understand why rescues may be sceptical of giving a puppy to an e-collar trainer. If the new puppy isn't as resilient as your current dog you could completely break it.

 

As far as the invisible fence I have had experience with my dogs at my in laws either bolting out and not coming back or the batteries being dead and no one noticing till the dogs took off.

[moosikins]

I can absolutely see those issues occurring as a result of the collars. The difference between our trainers, it seems, and the ones who cause this to happen is that ours are so gentle with the dogs and emphasize their needs, not our desire to change a behavior or control a dog. They watch for any and all cues, they take the collar off if needed, they snuggle and pet and love on the dogs. I've seen some VERY reactive dogs do really, really well in our group.

 

One of them is a psycho Mal. She's such a beautiful and smart dog, but she's vicious and has been since she was a puppy with seemingly no cause (she was not abused or neglected at all, ever). I watched someone other than her owner (and our trainer) pet and play with her for the first time since I met her in June 2015. It was amazing! I've seen several other amazing transformations including a new dog as of a few weeks ago. She's a Pitty/Bull Terrier (I think that's what the owner said...) mix and he got her "damaged" - nervous, velcro dog with aggression issues towards anyone who walked behind her. He had her for a year before they started with our SMS group and didn't make any progress on her anxiety with regular training. In the last three weeks, she's gotten so much more relaxed. She appears to be the kind of dog that massively benefits from the control the owner now has of her. She's apparently way less clingy lately too, which I suspect was a nice surprise for the owner!

 

I certainly don't mean to defend those trainers that do it all wrong and are the result of those terrible reviews you see of SMS online. But not all of them are like that and our trainers are just amazing guys. I adore my dog and I probably treat her too much like a child and less like a dog, but I do trust them with her even knowing she's a sensitive thing. There are great trainers and dog owners that utilize the collars.

 

That being said, I understand why some rescues don't even entertain the thought of e-collars. I get it, I just wish I was the exception here because I reallllly want to see those little BC girls...Maybe though, I'm not giving up hope yet! They haven't gotten back to me yet but they have sent out the paperwork for recommendations and references. I know our vet's office gave us a glowing recommendation (they're aware of the collar and they adore Cal) and so will our references and maybe that means something to the rescue.

 

I have been training and being mentored by a positive reinforcement trainer. During this time I have been helping out with a reactive dog/focus class, in the past 6 months alone I have seen 4 dogs coming from SMS facilities that were completely broken. 1 became super reactive after taking a SMS obedience class, 2 became terrified of everything (especially clickers which make a similar noise to a collar about to shock), the other refused to work with its owner without a shock collar on and cowered whenever the owner reached for the dogs regular collar. All were herding/ typically sensitive breeds. The trainer I'm working with says this is rather common with those types of dogs and SMS methods. From my experience even the focus issues you describe could be fixed with positive reinforcement, it just takes more patience and work than e-collars.

I'm sure you aren't doing this training with no concern for your dog, but I can understand why rescues may be sceptical of giving a puppy to an e-collar trainer. If the new puppy isn't as resilient as your current dog you could completely break it.

As far as the invisible fence I have had experience with my dogs at my in laws either bolting out and not coming back or the batteries being dead and no one noticing till the dogs took off.

[LauraV]

If that puppy doesn't work out, Midwest border collie rescue has a few mostly black pups.

[Maralynn]

Well, the SMS founder is not a person that I'd let anywhere near my dog. I'm highly uncomfortable with his whole training philosophy. Escape/avoidance training often ends up with bad results. Seeing SMS on an application would bother me much more than seeing that you've used an ecollar. Would I totally write you off? Knowing you through here? No. A random applicant? Maybe.

[moosikins]

I think if I get rejected, I'll send ONE e-mail with a bunch of photos of how happy my beast is and what a great life she leads.

 

Btw, she's currently digging through her Go Team backpack while I watch her on the camera. The speaker isn't working so I can't yell at her. She has no shame and probably thinks she deserves the entire pack of Zukes treats (one of those little to-go packs) for figuring out the zipper on the backpack now.

 

Well, the SMS founder is not a person that I'd let anywhere near my dog. I'm highly uncomfortable with his whole training philosophy. Escape/avoidance training often ends up with bad results. Seeing SMS on an application would bother me much more than seeing that you've used an ecollar. Would I totally write you off? Knowing you through here? No. A random applicant? Maybe.

[moosikins]

I'll check them out. My husband is going to hate you for showing me even more dogs to harass him into getting. He's on board when it comes down to it, but this is my desire, not his. :D

 

If that puppy doesn't work out, Midwest border collie rescue has a few mostly black pups.

[GentleLake]

I think if I get rejected, I'll send ONE e-mail with a bunch of photos of how happy my beast is and what a great life she leads.

 

One of the rescues I volunteer with, who would definitely deny based on your choice to use a shock collar (or whatever euphemism you use instead) and/or trainers who rely on such methods, would not be swayed by pictures no matter how great a dog's life is otherwise. They are firmly opposed to correction based training methods. (Not sure about the other one; I don't have any input in apps or adoptions.)

 

You won't be the first to have tried that approach, and it rarely works. I don't actually recall it ever having done.

[CptJack]

One of the rescues I volunteer with, who would definitely deny based on your choice to use a shock collar (or whatever euphemism you use instead) and/or trainers who rely on such methods, would not be swayed by pictures no matter how great a dog's life is otherwise. They are firmly opposed to correction based training methods. (Not sure about the other one; I don't have any input in apps or adoptions.)

 

You won't be the first to have tried that approach, and it rarely works. I don't actually recall it ever having done.

 

I think it is probably meant as it is taken: "Yeah, well you can hate it but I KNOW my dog is okay" It's not an attempt to sway unless I'm reading wrong, so much as going 'you lost out on a good adopter, so neeiner'.

 

What that makes it in my opinion is basically either childishly antagonistic or passive aggressive, but not likely an attempt to change minds.

 

...or, well, again, that's how it would be read by any rescue I've ever worked with (and again, it's been ages)

 

But rescuers are aware that you can stage a picture Pictures are not convincing. They're a snapshot (literally) of a single moment. It doesn't mean your training methods aren't damaging to your dog. They may or may not be (I'm not judging OP here), but let's be real: No one's going to send a picture of their dog being miserable. They ARE going to go out of their way to show how happy their dog is, even if it's the only 5 minutes this year the dog's ever been in the house, or whatever.

[GentleLake]

IME it's usually an attempt to sway us into reconsidering the denial.

 

And unless someone is offering to change their training methods and is really convincing in the attempt (in which case they might reconsider), I've really never noticed anyone feeling snubbed. Instead, neeners usually convince them they've made the right choice.

 

ETA: The most typical response I see to that kind of follow up is something to the effect of: They may have gotten away with not causing any damage with their current dog, but we're not going to take a chance on their being so lucky again with a dog we're responsible for.

[CptJack]

We possibly were just extra oblivious. Largely because, as you said, if the denial is based on training method, it doesn't matter how happy they show us their current dog is. Because:

 

1-) Pictures are very much not evidence

and 2-) As you said 'great, you got away with it once, but we're not taking that risk with one of ours'

 

There is also, and I'm aware this is potentially offensive to the OP, but if you can't manage to train a dog like a BC without the use of something like a shock collar, you're either not much of a trainer or you're very impatient and want solutions NOW.

 

Now, something like an e or prong collar being used in cases of SPECIFIC circumstances and dangerous issues (char chasing, or something similar)? Probably wouldn't bother us, but as an overall training protocol? No.

 

Either way, sending us pictures wouldn't change our minds.

[Blackdawgs]

Posting photos and videos of deliriously happy dogs wearing e collars is part of the culture.

[gcv-border]

I have been following this thread, and at this point, I am scratching my head as to why you would jump to the conclusion that you would bring a puppy to the SMS training. I understand that Cal had issues that you have worked through with the SMS trainers, but to immediately assume that a puppy should follow the same strategy limits your possibilities for training. Why not start with the positive reinforcement methods? I am sure that the puppy would respond very well.

[diane allen]

I don't know the rescue, and I won't comment on the collar topic - it's been said well enough. (Oh, biting my tongue here....)

 

My point is this: (and it's not directed solely at this thread.....it happens ALL the time!)

Yes, we all have some preferences about color, patterns, ear set, coat, etc. etc.

(I admit I do....)

 

BUT - it always makes me more than a bit nervous when someone says, "Oh, that dog is so cute! He looks like XXX. I want!"

Sure, a dog has to appeal to you in looks.

But there is sooooooo much more involved in choosing a dog/pup!

 

If it's coming from a good rescue, they should have more info to help you decide if that dog is the right one for you.

Laid back/couch potato? Probably not a good fit for someone looking for a sports dog.

Chases and kills chickens? Probably not a good fit for someone who has chickens or a neighbor with wandering ones.

Full of pep and vigor/needs "room to run" ? Probably not a good fit for great-grandma.

 

My point is: sure, look at a photo and think about it. Then start asking questions.

 

My latest "acquisition" (now 4 yr old, from Arizona Border Collie Rescue) is not one I would have chosen from a photo. She's tri colored (not my pref), she's small (not *too* small, but doing agility at "lesser" heights, my choice), and she had some health issues (one I knew about before, one I didn't - which can happen with any). But her personality more than made up for those things!

 

Hope this helpful, it isn't meant to be hurtful to anyone. Please just consider ALL aspects of a dog before bringing him/her into your life!

 

diane

[D'Elle]

IME it's usually an attempt to sway us into reconsidering the denial.

 

And unless someone is offering to change their training methods and is really convincing in the attempt (in which case they might reconsider), I've really never noticed anyone feeling snubbed. Instead, neeners usually convince them they've made the right choice.

 

ETA: The most typical response I see to that kind of follow up is something to the effect of: They may have gotten away with not causing any damage with their current dog, but we're not going to take a chance on their being so lucky again with a dog we're responsible for.

 

I do home checks for the rescue for which I volunteer, and that is exactly what my reaction would be if given that scenario. I would not want to place a dog in a home that used a shock collar, and if I received a follow up letter like the one suggested, I would consider it childish, and would be certain I had made the right decision in saying no to that person.

 

I also am utterly baffled by a person who would assume that shock collar training will be used on a brand new dog.......a puppy!......one the potential adopter doesn't even know. Why on earth would anyone start out that way? It is a great way to ruin a nice little dog.

 

Just to be clear: although I used to be 100% opposed to shock collars, I am no longer in that camp. However, I feel very strongly that they should be used only as essentially a last resort measure: as in matters of the life or death of the dog, and only after everything else possible has been thoroughly exhausted.

 

To plan to use one just to train a dog is, in my opinion, entirely the wrong approach, most especially with sensitive dogs like border collies. I agree entirely with Gentle Lake's ETA comment, above.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm still looking for a good article on the e-collar vs. shock. Gosh, collars are unpopular. I promise I adore my dog and we're doing this humanely!

 

 

I think the problem, as others have noted, is that e-collars are too often used as a shortcut to training and/or used by people who think because it doesn't "hurt" it can't be harmful. Harm can come as much from ill-timed or inappropriate corrections and discomfort as actual pain.

 

Also, if the same results can be achieved by training without using the collar, why not do that, especially when dealing with a sensitive breed like the border collie? I have seen the damage e-collars can do, even when used by people who purport to understand them, so when it comes to the herding breeds, I've come down on the side of, "Never, unless it's to correct a dangerous, hazardous or life-threatening behavior."

 

I have no reason to doubt you are doing wonderfully with your girl and that you would not allow anything to cause her distress or upset. But my first question would always be, what if someone just trained the dog, without the gadgets?

 

And my other question would be, why plan to train a new puppy the same way? Why not meet the puppy and find out who s/he is first?

 

E-collars of any sort should always be a last resort with border collies. If there are no overweening behavioral issues requiring one, don't go there. Don't resort to gadgets. Border collies deserve so much better than that - no matter how well it may have worked for your first dog. E-collars, static collars, whatever - they are not a training plan. They are a training crutch. Fine for the reactive Mal or high strung pittie, but not what a border collie deserves.

 

Just my tuppence, of course.

 

~ Gloria

[Blackdawgs]

The neck is a very sensitive area with major blood vessels and nerves. The nerves regulate trivial things like heart rate and blood pressure and GI function. Although you may not feel the "tap", it is clearly doing something. Planning to use this thing on a dog that you only know by photo is frankly unthinkable.

[Riika]

Mooskins, I only read the first page of this post, but would like to add my two cents based on that. First of all, I would not adopt from a shelter that had to make a home visit before accepting me. I just think that's ridiculous, but if you're okay with that, go right ahead. Second, I would not adopt from them if they have a problem with the shock collar.

 

Actually, the ridiculous stipulations (more than just the two I mentioned) of most shelters around here (and apparently elsewhere too, according to this post) prevents me from adopting or recommending others to adopt. I'd rather buy a dog.

[GentleLake]

Mooskins, I only read the first page of this post, but would like to add my two cents based on that. First of all, I would not adopt from a shelter that had to make a home visit before accepting me. I just think that's ridiculous, but if you're okay with that, go right ahead. Second, I would not adopt from them if they have a problem with the shock collar.

 

Actually, the ridiculous stipulations (more than just the two I mentioned) of most shelters around here (and apparently elsewhere too, according to this post) prevents me from adopting or recommending others to adopt. I'd rather buy a dog.

 

Aaaah. The wisdom of extreme youth.

[Riika]

 

Aaaah. The wisdom of extreme youth.

Thanks!

[D'Elle]

Thanks!

I think Gentle Lake was being sarcastic. Not complimentary on your thinking.

[Maralynn]

I adopted a dog from rescue. When I was a college student living with my folks. The fact that I already had two and was active in SAR helped. Didn't even have a home visit.

 

What I did do was talk on the phone extensively with them. And emailed a boat load of pics. So they made an exception.

 

Before that I got turned down a couple times. No biggie, their dog, their rules.

 

Emailing them after getting turned down is super counter productive when it's a rub it in your face email. All it does is burn bridges and make you look petty.

 

Just like you (the OP) has made choices that you feel are best for your situation, so does the rescue. If you are confident in your choice and don't want people to fault you for it, shouldn't you extend the same courtesy to them?

[Riika]

I think Gentle Lake was being sarcastic. Not complimentary on your thinking.

So was I.

[Gloria Atwater]

Mooskins, I only read the first page of this post, but would like to add my two cents based on that. First of all, I would not adopt from a shelter that had to make a home visit before accepting me. I just think that's ridiculous, but if you're okay with that, go right ahead. Second, I would not adopt from them if they have a problem with the shock collar.

 

Actually, the ridiculous stipulations (more than just the two I mentioned) of most shelters around here (and apparently elsewhere too, according to this post) prevents me from adopting or recommending others to adopt. I'd rather buy a dog.

 

 

While I agree that some rescues may have idiotic and over-controlling stipulations, I would have no problem in letting a rescue come check things such as whether I really have a good dog fence and if my house doesn't look like something from an episode of Hoarders.

 

As for rescues having problems with shock collars, there is enough prevalence of abuse and/or misuse of shock collars out there that I have zero problems with rescues declining prospective adopters who use them. After all, how is a rescue to differentiate between someone as judicious and conscientious as our original poster, here, and someone who mashes that damn button every time their dog barks or chases the chickens?

 

There's a balance to be found between invasive home inspections and simply making sure that a home is what the adopter says it will be.

 

~ Gloria