Zoe Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Thanks to everyone who responded to my last posts. I have got my weave poles.I got 20mm pvc and they are very sturdy. I went for stick in the ground poles as I am using Robert Loftus' clicker method. ( The 2 by 2 method ? ). I went really slow with Dylan having him run between 2 poles and gradually rotating the right hand pole so that they were in a "line". It all went perfectly. He was entering from the right no matter where he started from and was having a ball.It also didn't matter where I was. They are permanently set up in the garden and he would go straight to the poles and do them every time we went out there. I practised with him 2 or 3 times a day for very short sessions ( 1 minute or so ! ). I had introduced the verbal cue and practiced with that. This all took about two weeks. Like I said, real slow. Then I tried the 4 poles. As I understand from his article you just add 2 more poles in front of the 2 that your dog is already doing. I also understand that criteria should be raised very slowly. BUT if you have 2 sets of 2 poles that means your dog has to turn or "weave" to the right between the second and third poles. Up until that stage your dog has only been "weaving" to the left ( of the first pole and then exiting ). Isn't that raising the criteria to the ceiling......... ? I actually prepared the two new poles with Dylan out there ! Anyway, we tried and Dylan just didn't "get it". I have to admit I am not an experienced "trainer" but I think it was too much for him. I felt it wasn't fair on him because he didn't do anything I could click for and he started doing other stuff ie; barking, lying down etc., to get his treat. SO, I thought I need to teach him that there were 2 sets of poles and that he needed to do both of them which includes moving to his right in order to enter the 3rd pole. Later the same day I went back to two poles and we had fun again. The next day I put a set of two poles at about an eight foot distance from the first set. I just clicked and treated for each set independently and then only clicked if he would do both. I am still interspersing the clicks very occassionally. And I have gradually moved the farther set of two closer and closer to the nearer set. They are now about 5 feet apart. It is taking a long time but I think it is clearer for him ( and for me !!! ). He now understands he has to do the two sets and is very accurate and having fun again. I have kind of made this up and my question or concern is whether this is what anyone has done. Once he is able to do the four poles at the regular spacing I am planning to add the 5th and 6th poles again at a good distance from the 4th so that he can see there is another set. Can anyone out there think of anything I am doing wrong ?! It seems to be working and I just love watching him move - he is very fluid to my very biased eyes. Thanks in advance for any input, advice or criticism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Quite frankly, I have never understood this method of weave pole training. I know Susan Garrett uses it as well, but as I say, it is not a method I have ever tried. I normally use the angled weave poles and channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 I used Wires, Channels, 2x2, and angled poles. You could say that we have tried it all! Nothing you are doing (or did) is wrong. With 2x2 I start with 4 poles. They are the correct distance apart but angled like Channel poles (so the dog just runs through them) then little by little move them in to the correct angle. By starting with 4 she is weaving already right from the get go. One she has four I add another 2 and go back to the ALMOST wide open stage (because she us already now weaving it is easier to add the other poles). Then I just kept going on like that. As soon as she had all 12 (don't stop at 6) but still wasn't smooth I went more to the channels. With all the poles angled out. I kept them out (just a bit so that she didn't mess up) for a while but only with all 12. Once she was 100% and not ever popping any poles I moved them in. At that point I went off and did the other methods. But she already new the poles. Now she is still 100$% and has great entries. I won't bother saying EVERYTHING thhat I did in her weave training, so that was the important part. Like I said, you can't do anything wrong. For some dog out there anything (well, within some limits - don't go beating your dog or something ) could be the "right thing". Do you have a video camera?? If you do, video Dylan weaving and most digital cameras will let you watch it in slow motion. If you can do that, then DO. There are really 2 kinds of ways a dog can weave (most of the time) either by putting one foot in each space between the poles or by putting 2 feet and "hopping" through them (little dogs). If he does a combo of both methods - he isn't really smooth yet. Or is he is walking through them (I hope not) he is NOT smooth at all. At some point when he gets his own rhythm he will do one method or the other (but not the walking!). BCs are the size that they could do either method. So that is how to tell if he is smooth yet. Sorry this was so long, I hope it helps a bit. You are doing a great job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosstheboss2000 Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 One of the problems may be that because you are click and treating he is not looking/driving forward. If you change the placement of your reward.. you can do this by either click and throwing a toy or using a food canister to throw. This will change the placement and then your dog will start to look forward and hopefully at the second set. Throw the reward where the dog would be going ie. in a stright line for the weaves. If the dog is looking back you are to slow with your toy. When you add a second set put the first set back to the position you started... as the dog starts to understand you can easily move the poles straight again... when both sets are straight and he is DRIVING forward!!! Then you will start to move them together. Also make sure when you do work the poles that you only work ONE way.. meaning if you have the dog go from the fence to the house dont reverse it in that training session as you only want to encourage driving forward. Bring the dog back to the same side to go again. At this point you should not be using a weave command.. I just use GO or you can also just use a release. ie. free, okay. You should not click for both sets just the second once you put them together. Hope that helps!!! Happy weaving Cindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted May 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Thanks for your replies. "walk" doesn't exist in Dylan's vocabulary - so no problems there ! Thanks for the video idea = I hadn't thought of it at this stage. I think he is going to be a "one-footer" though, having watched him with the naked eye ! Cindy, at the moment both sets are straight and he is going forward. I am only doing it one way but I'm not bringing him back to anywhere. He returns and does it again by himself. I think that is ok .. ? ! And I have started using the weave command after Dylan got really fluent with the two poles in a straight line. ( Like the article said ). I am also hoping that is ok - Dylan seems to like me naming stuff As of today I am only clicking on the second set ! Thanks again. Maybe I'll post a video later ! Do you guys have any of your BCs weaving ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mosstheboss2000 Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 You shouldnt let him just go back and do it himself at this point.... Once the behaviour of going through the poles is shape you should control the release... sounds like you are on the right track. Weaves always feel like they will never happen! I still would not not use my weave command till my dog was proficient on doing 4 straight poles... infact I dont think I used it till 12 poles!! After I shape going through the 2 poles ,I just use GO. My dogs have good gos and that means drive forward and look for something to do! Happy training!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest amylobdell24 Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 Avidly listening to this post...we are on weave pole boot camp too. We learned with channels/wire guards, but now that we're progressing to straight competition sets (without guards)in courses, it's like she just doesn't even recognize them. I have 6 of the stick-in-the-ground type weaves to practice with at home (when it's rained in the past few hours - otherwise I'd have to hire someone to drill holes in the hard-as-cement baked texas ground) - we've been taking them out 2-3 times a day and working on them channeled with no guards & she's doing pretty well, but still if they get too close together she'll just run next to them or fall out halfway through. Our trainer just says to practice, practice, practice with them channeled until she's gotten it down really well, then progress to moving them straighter. I guess I'm just used to her doing something twice and having it down....spoiled by genius as many of us BC owners are, I suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 Hi, When i teach my dogs to weave i also use the channel meathod with wiers . at first i have them wide open, then close them gradually wires still on when i have them stright up i have the wires on than I take the middel ones off and leave 2 on the first pollls and 2 on the last polls . i all ways reward by tossing there toys ahead. This way the dogs focus is a head and not looking up to me for the reward. Placement of reward is crtical!!! I finaly remove the entrence wires than the last wires. I teach entries seperate from the polls so if i have done my job my dog will get the entrece and drive allthe way to the end .if my dog slows down i open the polls 1-2 inches and work on speed. Your dog going by the polls is not unusual open your polls up and teach entries seperately by using the 3 poll meathoad. LOL bobh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted June 3, 2006 Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 IF anyone is ever using wires.... Just thought I would add that when you "take them away" you do it slowly. First you watch your dog. When they are learning they will be looking at the wires but when they start to know what they are doing they will be watching the poles more and more. When they are watching only the poles, that is when you are ready to take the wires off. You usually take the wires off by SLOWLY moving them UP on the poles. At first they should be just a little below eye-level with the dog. Little by little move them above the dog's head. That way the dog can't see them real well but they are still "there" for a reminder. Once they are all the way up on the poles (and the dog CAN NOT see them AT ALL)AND the dog is still not making any mistakes you can take them off entirely. So that is the usuall way to take off wires. I will try to get a video of Dazzy weaving online this weekend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2006 The thing is, I didn't want to use wires because I wanted him to figure it out and I thought he might go wide or not figure out the proper foot placement. (And I was worried about removing them.)Maybe I was unnecessarily worried.....! When I had the four poles at the correct distance in a straight line ( as I wrote above, ) Dylan would do an entry from the right ( correctly ), but would enter after the second pole ! Poor guy ! So I thought I should teach him there was a second set coming up and therefore spaced them out. I really liked the idea of teaching the entry and exit by rotating the second pole in a set of two and having that be slow and fun.But the next leap proved to be too much !Having two sets of two poles at a distance and gradually moving them together seems to be working for us.We have gotten closer since I last posted and he is still doing ok. I think it takes a while for the body to remember how to move... ( I am a potter and it takes a long time to remember or feel how to make a shape = I kind of look at it that way ! ) I guess a lot of this depends on what you as a trainer/handler understand and feel confident with. If I don't feel like I understand something, then I certainly can't teach it. I wonder what Dylan would be like with another handler at times....But he is stuck with me Kat - I'd love to see a video of Dazzle ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Owen Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Sorry to hijack but as your on the subject I'm teaching Bailey to weave as well. He's on four poles at the min and can do it but it seems to bore him! A BC bored!!!! I cant get him to do it at any speed not even two poles at an angle, he'll run past them but when it comes to doing the poles he slows down and does it at a very slow walk. If I make a channel I can get him to run down it if I squeak a toy at the other end but then its only because he's obsessed with squeakers, he isnt pay attention to the poles, I know because as soon as I narrow the channel (even slightly) he'll run down the outside! Its getting really frustating now! Anyone have any ideas, or shall I just let him do it a walking pace until he's sure what he's doing and then see if he'll speed it up a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Claire - hi. I am not experienced as you can see from my post, but I am glad we are both in this together ! How have you taught Bailey ? Can he actually weave 4 upright poles placed the correct distance apart ? Do you use a clicker ? I was wondering that if you didn't, how you would communicate to him that he is not doing what you want. You said you are frustrated - is he picking up on that or is that just something you are saying to us ?! I don't use toys with Dylan because he would get too excited and lose concentration. I just click and throw a treat. Would Bailey work for treats ? It might solve your concentration problem. As for speed, Dylan doesn't go really fast unless I run alongside him which I sometimes do ( on both sides ). But I also call him through and send him through - and he definitely goes slower. I don't actually care at the moment. I don't know if that is the right attitude, but I know that once he gets the "game" of agility he'll run like the wind. I want him to understand the concept of weaving first. But he is not walking it like Bailey so.... Can you get Bailey excited about the weaves - by your tone of voice and attitude ? I know I can get Dylan interested or excited about anything if I use "that" tone of voice and particular words like "shall we... " or "let's ...." or " do you want to......." . He is very easy to dupe now ! I get him excited about having his nails clipped !!! I also have a problem with the size of my garden. It is tiny - I think I can go to 8 or maybe 10 poles and have a few feet either end to spare so we won't be able to really work on speed as he has nowhere to run once he gets out ! Hmmm, sorry - I'm kind of rambling. Maybe you should start another thread called " walking the weaves... " if no-one reponds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Owen Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 I'm so glad I'm not the only one too. Here is a link to the method I used, as of last night Bailey was weving six upright poles at the correct distance... still walking though http://www2.tpg.com.au/users/rloftus/weaving.htm He progressed very quickly, I didnt spend very long on each stage, could be a mistake. We only have six poles in total as I want to get other equipment too and wouldnt be able to fit it all in the garden. Bailey still makes mistakes normally when he isnt concentrating. I use treats, he gets clicked and treated when he gets to me. Yesterday he started speeding up a bit toward the end coz he knew what treats I had. I use my excited vioce which normally works but it doesnt seem to do much, I darednt speak to him whilst he's weaving because I dont want to interrupt the cincentration I hoping Bailey will love it once he's sure about what he's doing. Keep me posted on how you get on and if that method helps at all. Its only been three days so I cant complain coz at least he can do it (most of the time). I'll start a knew thread if he doesnt speed up when he's got the hang of it. I've tried running with him too but he wont weave then, he follows me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Claire - we're using the same method ! Maybe going slow doesn't matter - have you seen this ? http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-agility.htm Click on the training the weaves part. She is sooooooooo different to Dylan, but she is kind of walking it and he doesn't care. Maybe Bailey will speed up naturally or you can work on that seperately... I don't know. Are you just doing this for fun ? Will you ever go to class or take part in a competition ? At the moment I'm doing it by myself for financial reasons and also because I think the training methods might not suit us ! I'm thinking I should train him on the difficult stuff first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Owen Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Thank for that link, thats helped, the method I used said not to lead your dog through but let him figure it out on his own. I think I'll try leading him like that though see if it interests him a bit more! At the min I stand at the end, I click when he does it right and take him back to the beginning when he misses a pole. And yeah Bailey is walking it like that so at least I know that its ok. I think some of his problem might be that he's bothered by the heat (yes we actually have NICE weather). I'm doing this for fun, the police have a full sized agility course over on the airfied here and I'm not sure if we can use it or not so I thought I'd get Bailey used to agility at home first as his concentration isnt brilliant in new places. As far as I can find there are no agility classes near us, thats the problem being stuck in the middle of nowhere. i dont think I'd ever compete either (if we found a class that is). Good luck, give Dylan a huge cuddle from me when he does it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Claire, you're welcome. Let's update in a week or two ! Goodnight ( or at least it is here ! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfterThought Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Claire, My one dog used to be really slow (walking) in weaves. He's 100% accurate but just slow. What I did was go back to channels. He's really food motivated so I put a little container of treats at the end, got him all hyped out while holding him back and then finally releasing him thru the channels with a "go get your cookies!" and me racing to the treat container as well. After a while, I took the channels away and it was back to a normal straight line weave. Still, I did the same thing with the food container at the end. And he had to weave really fast to get to the food. Also, I don't treat unless he's fast thru the weaves. That's cuz he knows how to do them. For Bailey, I might get him to actually be 100% accurate on weaving first. I've tried it with toys at the end and it works for me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 With the speed issue, I would get it accurate first, hopefully with some kind of speed, and then once he is confident with the poles, as long as you encourage it, speed will most definitely follow. If a dog is confused or doesn't know what to do they can't really go fast without making a mistake. Safety and accuracy first - then speed will follow. However, with channels you are kind of speeding up the process so the dog has to do less thinking at first and can go faster right from the get go. But you can't forget that with the channels you do need to take is slow so you can keep that speed throughout the learning process. It will all come together in the end, don't worry, just take it slow. OK, and I FINALLY got video of Dazzle on Putfile. Here goes: Dazzle weaving from a side view: http://media.putfile.com/Dazzle-weaving-side-view Dazzle weaving from a front view (easier to see her one-footing): http://media.putfile.com/Dazzle-weaving-front-view And a comparison I made awhile ago of her weaving several months ago (bottom corner) and now (upper corner): http://media.putfile.com/Dazzle-weaving-comparison In the last one you can see that she used to change between one-footing and two-footing, but with more practice and work she was able to do all one-footing. It cut about a second off of her weaving time because she is so much smoother now. Let me know of you can't see the video.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 WOW ! She is poetry in motion. I am an official Kat and Dazzle fan from this moment forward ! Thank you so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainierlass Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Those are great videos of your Razzle, Kat - - - she has an amazing entry - - I liked how the comparison showed her graduating to the one foot - - am thinking Tess is more 2-footed at this time - but she has only been doing weaves for about 4 months or so but is getting way faster since we got poles here at home - - we have always done 12's - can imagine the look I will get on Saturday in her first run @ Novice with only 6 - - will she ask me where the rest are?? Or be happy with 6?? LOL!! Again - - GREAT videos - you are GORGEOUS Razz!! Maggie and Tess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agilitybcs Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 WOW Dazzle has awesome weaves!!! Which method do you think worked best for her and to get her 1 stepping? Im sending off my younger bc to your house so she can learn to weave like her haha Kristie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 awesome job !! bobh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kat's Dogs Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 For her entries the wires are what really got them down but for the one-footing it was the angled poles did the trick - they had her one-footing almost from the start. However, the channels and the clicker are what really got her speed up. I guess using all the methods put together makes for a pretty good blend! I was afraid it wouldn't work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Kat, I am really glad that other people got to see Dazzle on video too. She really is gorgeous and you are such a great trainer. I just wanted to say I admire you and I like your flexible attitude to training. Once again, thanks for your help. I have learnt a lot from this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claire Owen Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Kat those videos are amazing. Well done. Oh thanks for that training video link Zoe, since I've started leading Bailey through like that he has sped up, two footed... but its a lot better than walking it. Just need to see how long it takes until I can stop doing it with him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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