Another agility question - sequencing( Long ! )

[Zoe]

I'm pestering you gals again !

Dylan can do straight ( or curved ) line sequencing of 4 to 5 obstacles. I am only using very low jumps and tunnels. ( I have 2 play tunnels ). Oh, and sometimes I include a tree for variety - he goes around

He can also go over one or two obstacles and then take a left or right jump/tunnel. I have the two choices set up and he has to listen to/observe me to take the right one. It does not matter where I am for any of the above. I can stand behind him and send him out. I have gone through very methodically - calling him over and then gradually hanging back - but he didn't really need that !!! If he is going to make a mistake, I can say "wrong" and he doesn't take the obstacle. He understands the command "try again" - he'll come back to the starting point -and doesn't get phased by that.

Now my question. I got Simmons-Moakes second ( sequencing ) book a few days ago. It says to include "call offs" after your dog can do a sequence of 3 jumps. She recommends you standing up by the second jump and giving your dog a "come" command ( to come away from the third jump towards the handler )while it is in mid-air over the said jump. I tried this today.... I decided not to use the "come" command because I didn't think it would be realistic on a course. I chose " this way ", which Dylan already understands to mean " follow the direction I am going in " from our off leash hikes. I adjusted my body position in line with where I wanted him to go. Of course, the first time I tried it he sailed over the third jump He got it right about 30% of the time, including the last time and was rewarded ( ball play ) for doing so. I only worked off one side. When he didn't get it right, he was asked to try again without his reward. He was happy to do so. But I felt it wasn't fair..... The reason being that there was no other obvious obstacle for him to take which there would be on a course. If I'd had another jump set up for him in the direction in which I was moving, I think it would have made more sense to him ( and me ! ). It felt more like an "obedience" lesson and I feel that if I continued with that kind of task, it may dampen his enthusiasm. I think it is important to teach the dog to listen to/observe you - of course. But I was thinking I need to change the way I do this exercise with Dylan. First, I would like to make a greater distance between the second and third jumps. This would give him more time to think/respond.( Today all the jumps were spaced evenly ). Second, I would like to have another jump to direct him to in place of the third one in the straight line sequence. This would make more sense to me ( and maybe to him ). I have never done this before so I may be missing a ton of stuff. I'm not even sure I need to do all of this 'cos he understands "wrong" and gives me attention when I say it. Sorry if this is not clear and you are not familiar with the book I am referring to. Any advice / comments would be really appreciated. Thank you

[KrisK]

Hi Zoe,

 

Can't help you much but you might want to go to www.cleanrun.com I know there is a 'clean run' yahoo forum just for agility questions. It's great and you will get PLENTY of answers

 

Hope that helps!

[Olivia]

I do use call offs in practice but I do send the dog somewhere else. For instance if I had a line of 4 jumps (any kind of spacing, doesn't matter) I would have the dog jump the first two, call him to me, bring him in front of me in a front cross and send him back to the previous jump and on to the original first jump. Then call and cross and send to the third and on to the fourth, call and send back to the third, etc. I do this to work on control as you saw some dogs will just keep going if there are jumps in a row and judges love to put out an extra jump as a trap after an obvious sequence of jumps.

 

I only do this for a limited time as it is hard on the dog and I don't want to see my dogs losing interest. I also want to make sure I keep the flow going, no stops and starts, just clean smooth turns and sends. If a bar is knocked, I say "oops, almost", stop the exercise and reset and try again.

 

Does this make sense? It is hard to put into words. Do you work on running with your dog? For the longest I would stay almost in one spot or area while working my really fast dog but when I started running with him he lost his brain and got too fast and frantic. Just because you can send him don't forget to move with him sometimes. Do you plan to show? I would also start with uneven spacing for the jumps, this helps teach the dog to shorten and lengthen their stride automatically.

 

This help any?

 

Olivia

[Rave]

There was a Clean Run article awhile back about cueing a turn... here it is: http://www.cleanrun.com/moreinfo.cfm?Produ...FTOKEN=72553381

 

You really don't want to "call-off" an obstacle, as that will usually demotivate (or piss off) a dog. Rather cue the dog beforehand that he is to turn (and not take the obstacle). If you're self-teaching, I'd really recommend subscribing to the Clean Run magazine.

 

-Laura

[bobh]

I would recomend Clean Run Mag you can get a on line sub. for $19.95 no matter wear you live.

 

When i start a dog on agility I teach my go ons get oiuts come in to my side stay at my side until I tell you to leave me sit stays downs and so on all before we do any equipment.

I all so teach front crosses rear crosses and and teach acceleration deceleration ( this tells your dog that you are either going to go on or something (A turn ) is going to happen because you are slowing down.

So by the time we are doing your call offs it is no Problem. He k nows when we are turning even if we are turning to no were.

With out seeing you do thi exercise i would guess that asyou say you are new to agility so you proberly did not do the foundation work .

I woul d go back and do foundation , but if you do not than i would use 1 jump lead out past the jump and be lateral to the jump now as your dog is commiting to the jump turn awy from the dog and call him in when he gets to your side ( hand ) rewadrd!( I would either use a tug toy with a ball on it so you can tug or throw it when you are rewarding away from you. Using a ball can lead to injury when it bounces and the dog jumps after it .

Once your dog is coming to your side than add a second jump and repeat than add the third jump now you can do the exercise . This may only take one training seesion or less It sounds like Zoe will master this in no time.

My first dog to do agility is a very Fast Aussie and we did very little foundation work so we where always going off course and it took us 3-4 years of work to get our timing down. since than i have had a GSD and 2 BCs that i did foundation work with and they are less likly to go off course

[kelpiegirl]

Call offs are something to stay away from. I have one girl who gets deflated when called off, and I have learned a way to make my errors in handling- )and that is why call offs come into play) correctable without the dog being deflated and always ready for redirection. First, if a dog takes the wrong obstacle, I consider "where was I that caused that?" and I reposition, after looking through the dog's eyes, where I need to be. Then, I ensure that my toy is ready, and if I have a really tough sequence, I practice doing a sequence, calling the dog to me, and in the opposite direction, I throw the frisbee- this teaches the dog to look when I say their name, and also that when I say that name, they will have to change course, but do so very willingly- they are NEVER wrong- only gonna get a really good reward for paying attention This builds confidence as well.

Julie

[Kat's Dogs]

I don't like the online version of clean run - there are so many rules about what you can and cannot do with it! But clean run would help a lot. Clean Run also has a spot on the website with videos of stuff that was in the magazine - they are really helpful. You can watch them here :

http://www.cleanrun.com/pages.cfm?ID=60&CF...FTOKEN=98085664

 

Our dogs a BCs - they like to run fast and make their own course before you even get on the field.

 

That said, why you would be told to do this without a jump is you are reinforcing the Here/Come/This Way command. Sometimes if I am running with Dazzle and she just won't make a tight turn - I will just do that part and get her to me with a treat. When I try the whole thing again and she will (usually) do it - because I rienforced it alone, no other obstacles, just the reward for coming to me.

 

BUT!!!! If Dylan is doing fine with that after 1 or 2 tries - add a jump. You only need no jump in the learning stage. Later, if he won't come to you on a hard sequence, just make him come to you with a treat - but for now, add a jump!

 

Also, if you want more sequences to work on.....

Clean run has those on the website too, here:

http://www.cleanrun.com/exercises/exarchiv...FTOKEN=98085664

Just click on one that sounds fun and it will give you one set up and a bunch of different versions of the exercise.

[bobh]

Kats dog says it very well i agree with this . about the On line Clean Run i do not sub to it so i do not Know how it is but do know the hard copy will cost much more!

Good luck with Zoe

bobh

[Shetlander]

I wouldn't want to be without my Clean Run. I keep all my copies and refer back to them frequently. That said, trying to learn agility on your own is really a daunting task. Are there any instructors or clubs near you? If nothing else, you may want to try to attend a seminar. You will be amazed what you can learn from a really good instructor. I've found seminars to be goldmines of information. In addition to the knowledge the instructor shares, you also benefit from having someone tell you what you are doing right or wrong with your dog. At my first seminar, I was shown a bunch of changes I needed to make in my handling. Being self-taught can put you at a real disadvantage because you often end up needing to relearn how to handle and/or retrain the dog. For instance, I've changed most of my bad habits but to this day I still fight my tendency to reach for my dog which just gunks up a run.

 

Call off's in the sense of pulling a dog abruptly from an obstacle are something I endeavor to avoid. I agree that they can demotivate a dog. I partly attribute my first agility dog's slow, careful working style to all the call offs I did with him. Think about it. How fast do you want to be driving down the road if you're wondering when your navigator is going to suddenly tell you to turn? When I walk out of a ring and someone congratulates me on a hard call off, I thank them but inside I know the better outcome would have been me showing my dog a clearer path. This involves timely cues and compelling movement on my part. Verbal cues are important, but most dogs get the majority of their information from our physical cues -- the direction we are going, our speed, "drawing the path," and the use of various crosses and moves.

 

However, I did need to really work with my Lhasa to come to my hand because he had a habit of running behind me to off course obstacles. For a change it wasn't even my handling! So I spent a lot of time rewarding him for coming to me around the house, in practice not around obstacles, in the middle of sequences, and during those moments when he was headed off course. Highly reinforcing coming to my hand has made him more attentive to me in general. He's now much more inclined to stick with my plan, instead of running his own. So call offs are a necessary evil sometimes, but not the first line of defense IMHO.

[Olivia]

Great advice from everyone!

 

I guess what I was describing is not exactly a call off. To me I am signaling the turn and front cross as the dog is coming over the jump I want him to turn over, not after he sees and is committed to the next jump. That way he gets warning that we are turning/going another direction and it is highly motivating to him as it means we are on to the next obsticle.

 

A true call off would be getting the dog to leave a jump after seeing it and committing to it. Usually not very graceful.

 

Olivia

[Rave]

I am signaling the turn and front cross as the dog is coming over the jump I want him to turn over

 

For most dogs, this is too late. For example, in a jump sequence where the course turns between jumps #3 and #4, I'll cue the dog after he lands from #2, so he can adjust his stride and approach angle, to ideally start the turn before #3. Anything later than that and you're asking for a wide turn, bar down, off course, call-off, etc... BTW, most dogs commit to an obstacle well before 1 jump ahead of time.

 

-Laura

[Tassie]

I think I see what you're saying, Laure - and we were actually practising something like that at training last night. A problem I encounter doing this with my girl is that if I cue ahead too hard or too soon (and I'm not sure yet just which is the problem), my very fast and agile girl will pull off and come inside of the jump (#3 in your example). I did it not once, but twice on a course on Saturday (duh!).

 

Is it just practice on my part that's needed, to feel when and how to cue the upcoming turn?

[bobh]

Tassie its a timing issue and you must still surport the Obs until your dog commits to it.

i must dis agree with Laura on the Commit ment as your dog gains exsperence your dogs commitment point will be closer to the obs. if you are to early yourt dog will come off. So be patient and surport each obs,

bobh

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

BTW, most dogs commit to an obstacle well before 1 jump ahead of time.

Maybe most Border Collies? My shelties did very well when I cued them while they were in the air over the jump preceding the turn. The faster and more driven the dog, the earlier you need to cue.

[Kat's Dogs]

Shih tzus don't seem to see anything until they are on top of (or over) it.

 

First, I think of a call off as when you have a line of at least 3 jumps and you only let the dog do at least 2 of them - then make them turn away. When you are going to do a call off, you SHOULD be letting you dog know (in some way) that something is going to happen next.

 

Also, with Dazzle I made call-offs the best thing in the world for her. I gave her so much praise so that she loves them first of all, and she only gets happier when she does them! So with a LOT (and I mean a LOT!!) of praise, these dogs can learn to love turning and running with you.

[Zoe]

Thank you so much everyone ( gals AND guys ! ) for your replies. They have given me a lot to think about. A lot of what you say makes so much sense and a few things I had never even thought of. This makes me feel I should get to class. I'd love to and am going to have to - I know. I thought I'd try and do as much as I can by myself first ( I know, I can feel you cringing Based on my experience of SAR/obedience training in Japan I don't have high hopes of agility training... I know I shouldn't say that without having actually gone to see a training session. The only classes I have managed to find are half or all day classes which means about 60-90 dollars per go..........and a 2 hour drive away. I'm going to have another look into that though. Anyway, I am a member of the Clean Run forum. I haven't posted there as they ask that you post with regard to issues raised in the magazine.... I do search and read stuff, but it is very difficult to do ( unlike on the Boards...) I've also found other stuff on the internet. I'm doing agility stuff with Dylan because it is something for us to do together and he loves it. I don't really care about the competitive side of it. I'm also doing it 'cos I don't know if SAR will work out for us.In which case I might want to compete for fun. It is complicated ! I feel a bit like I have bothered you all. I know how much time it takes to respond to a post. I appreciate it.

[Rave]

Yes, I was forgetting about the little guys. I guess that should've read, most dogs SHOULD commit more than one jump ahead of time... the obstacle 10' in front of them should be a "given". It really depends on what you teach them. If you want them checking in with you and not committing to obstacles, then go for it. I don't think it depends entirely on age, it really depends on what you teach them. If I wanted a pup just to do NADAC (i.e. no tight turns), I could have a 9 month pup looking ahead more than a few [baby] obstacles.

 

-Laura

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

I guess that should've read, most dogs SHOULD commit more than one jump ahead of time... the obstacle 10' in front of them should be a "given". It really depends on what you teach them. If you want them checking in with you and not committing to obstacles, then go for it.

Have you worked with low drive dogs in agility? They're very different to train and run than high drive dogs. The reason you see mainly BC's at the highest levels of competition is because they're generally incredibly gifted athletes with tons of drive. Last night, I used 9 month old Quinn as a demo dog in a handler's class I'm giving at my club. It was just to show how to train a solid start line stay using the Ready, Steady game, but it was his first time working in front of a bunch of strange dogs and people. I don't think he even glanced at the audience. His focus was totally on the toy and the game. Before class, I had worked him on sending to the table from 25 feet away with little effort on my part.

 

There are two sides to the training equation -- the dog and the handler. In the words of our Secretary of Defense, "We go to war with the army we have." Quinn is night and day compared to my Lhasa. There are things I'm doing to help the Lhasa have appropriate obstacle focus, but it's unlikely he'll ever run with the same focus as a Border Collie. He certainly will never run with the same speed. For those reasons, I don't see him ever having the same commitment point as a Border Collie and it won't be because I trained him to keep checking in with me. It will be because I'm running the dog I have at my side and not the dog he "should" be.

[Rave]

Yes I have; that's my typical student actually. In my postings, I'm obviously not referring to dogs with issues. No cookie cutter method will work for every dog. But since this is a BC forum, and the OP has a BC and hasn't mentioned drive issues (but rather how to handle her obstacle-focused and at least somewhat driven BC), that was who my answer was tailored to, not Lhasas.

 

-L

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by rtphokie:

In my postings, I'm obviously not referring to dogs with issues. No cookie cutter method will work for every dog.

Thanks for clarifying since it wasn't completely obvious to me I didn't think you were referring specifically to Lhasas. Few in agility do

 

I just wanted to point out that the end result isn't always solely the way a dog is trained. I've even seen one or two BC's who don't have the typical drive and work ethic of their breed.

 

I will say that now that I've had a BC who is rarin' to go and always looks disappointed when we end a training session, I'm totally hooked on this kind of dog. Quinn's enthusiasm is absolutely contagious.