Herding instinct/working lines and sports?

[alligande]

Root beer, in my premise I said "average" and I would not expect a dog with huge baggage to make the world team. Silvia Trkman and Susan Garrett are two trainers who consistently produce world class results with a variety of characters. My point was about a lot of the effort people put into finding their next dog, most well bred dogs who are sound have the talent in the right hands to do well.

 

I have been blessed with an amazing rescue dog, who is fast, talented and bloody hard to handle well as he is very responsive, we have been working together for 6 years and every time we train I improve and I am always pushing, it has only been in the last few months that it has really dawned on me how far I have come, and how running a course just feels different now for years I have been the weak link. Even before I moved to a country that prizes wining I was seeking out trainers that would help me acheive that edge, I just love the thrill.

Tonight at the club we had a short sequence set up for the teams who are not advanced, but it got turned into a game when I said a front cross was best, my co-trainer a ketchker. So we timed everyone from a jack Russell to a Mallinois. A front cross was the best route, Our beginner border collie team was 8.96 seconds, my co-trainer with her Aussie 8:45, with her Malinois 8:55 and Rievaulx and I, 7:96 because we have a tighter front cross, and I could carve a little time of that! All of these were clean, what made the difference was one turn, get it right and you can win and that is what the top handlers bring to the game.

[CptJack]

And that is actually exactly what I'm talking about. (Alligande)

I'm now interested in competing with other people, as we've discussed?

But this kind of thing *delights* me.

 

And it has, in my experience, made a much bigger differences in people I see, than getting a faster dog.

And I have certainly known more than a few people, particularly on line, particularly very new people, who are more interested in getting a faster, higher drive dog, rather than improving their own handling.

 

(Blackdawgs: I am not speaking for a lot of people. I am speaking FROM experience, and that has jack-all to do with adequately squeaking by, regardless of whether or not I enjoy being competitive against other people instead of a course. As much as I realize you enjoy condescending, making your own assumptions and asserting your superiority, 'squeaking by' isn't relevant to the discussion at hand. Nor the previous one, actually, but if you're having that much fun - who am I to stop you?)

[mum24dog]

I'm not competitive but in all honesty the reason is because I've never been good at sports so wanting to win was always doomed to failure. I still see winning as the point of sporting activities though.

 

I'm lucky, I can enjoy the part of the training I enjoy and am OK at and reap the vicarious benefit of seeing my very competitive daughter put the training into action. Best of both worlds for me.

 

We have two superficially similar bcs, one bigger than the other. The first is a screwed up rescue that quits when things don't go to plan. Nevertheless he has made the top grade we have here in agility and is still getting placed aged 10 and with hip dysplasia.

 

Our new dog is nearly 2 and is very well bred for work. Compared to the first dog he has been so easy. He has a tendency to hold back until he understands what is required but then gives it his all and bounces right back if things go wrong. Totally focussed on the job, whatever it is (mainly agility). He even enjoys competitive obedience, probably more than I do, and his sheepdog lessons of course. I've yet to find anything he isn't willing to give a try.

[Root Beer]

Even if you want to be faster/need to be faster, about 90% of what I see is better accomplished at most levels of competition by clean lines, tight turns, a really confident dog, and an efficient course than by the dog physically running faster.

 

This is incredibly difficult. It has been the story of my Agility life for the last couple of years. Yes, it can be done - at least in the venue that I play in. But it has required quite a lot of work, both for my dog, and for myself. And, actually, part of it has included fitness training for the dog. In the end, she is the one whose speed is being timed. Not mine. I can get a few seconds of speed through better handling. I can also get some speed by doing core work with her. It's not all me - she's the one who has to do the running.

 

Honestly, I think of it as a partnership. It's not her, it's not me. It's both of us. We are a team. Neither of us are blaming either one for anything. We both put a lot into this. We both do our best in the ring. We both make mistakes. We both have moments of brilliance. Sometimes I mis-handle. Sometimes she mis-reads a cue.

 

But yes, to get more speed out of her, I have needed to help her physically move faster. Some of that is on her.

 

 

Most people don't need a better dog to do better. They need better skills, as a trainer or handler to do better.

 

But sure. Let's blame the dog not being cream of the crop best natural agility dog ever.

 

I will be interested to see what I have to say about this in 5 - 7 years.

 

I do want to ask this, though - in considering the question of whether or not a working bred Border Collie can make an excellent Agility partner, perhaps above-average, even, how is that blaming any dog for anything?

[Root Beer]

Our new dog is nearly 2 and is very well bred for work. . . . I've yet to find anything he isn't willing to give a try.

 

Bandit has been the same thus far. Right now his first love seems to be Rally! He is enamored with it.

He seems to love Agility training, Freestyle training, and Rally FrEe training to be extremely fun, but he is showing something of a passion for Rally.

[Blackdawgs]

I've done agility both ways--with mentally and physically challenged beloved rescues in which just "squeaking by" was the best that dog could do. And with the purpose-bred (working-bred) dog.

 

Having a dog whose sole limitation is me is a GAMECHANGER. And I could not have imagined how much of a game changer if I had not experienced this myself.

[Root Beer]

Having a dog whose sole limitation is me is a GAMECHANGER. And I could not have imagined how much of a game changer if I had not experienced this myself.

 

Well said. I am still only at the foundation training stage and I know exactly what you mean.

 

Sometimes I still don't believe he's real.

[Cass C]

Honestly I LOVE running Lily (a working bred dog) and she is a great partner, but her spooky personality is limiting at times and a few times she has completely shut down because someone scared her or tried to pet her before we got into the ring (even though I stop them it still puts her on edge). In USDAA she even leaped off the A-Frame because she was concerned with the judge encroaching to see both sides of the contact. The only way I could get her over the A-Frame was to get between her and the judge. While I do manage these things as best I can, things like a judge nearing the A-Frame I have to slowly train her to deal with.

 

It would be easier to have a dog that was not fearful. So can any physically sound dog compete yes, but with some it takes a lot more training on things that people with great dogs don't even have to think about. Those issues aren't about handling they are the dog's issues. A part of me envies people with easy to handle fearless dogs.

 

I am lucky to have a trainer who also has a fearful dog that had to learn to work through his fear, but most agility classes don't cover how to handle a fearful dog successfully. Lily is a great agility dog, handles like a dream, and Qs with first place most of the time, but it's unfortunate how one little thing like a judge getting too close can cause a total breakdown. I will definitely be putting a lot of thought into temperament in my next pup, because I would love to make it to a very high level agility and am not sure Lily will be able to overcome her fear that much, but I may be surprised...

 

It bothers me when people say any dog can be a great agility dog, because that's just not true. Any physically sound dog can do agility and probably Q, but the dog's personality also factors into being a great agility dog.

[Root Beer]

 

 

It bothers me when people say any dog can be a great agility dog, because that's just not true. Any physically sound dog can do agility and probably Q, but the dog's personality also factors into being a great agility dog.

 

I agree. That bothers me, too.

 

And I would never . . . ever, ever, ever, EVER . . . pursue Agility with a severely noise phobic dog again. Ever. Never.

 

(Sound sensitive, yes. Noise phobic, never)

[alligande]

I've done agility both ways--with mentally and physically challenged beloved rescues in which just "squeaking by" was the best that dog could do. And with the purpose-bred (working-bred) dog.

 

Having a dog whose sole limitation is me is a GAMECHANGER. And I could not have imagined how much of a game changer if I had not experienced this myself.

I agree it opens up a whole new world of agility , I am still in wonder of my current dog, people I train, sometimes watch me train after class, when we can repeat an exercise over and over and over and he never quits, it means I can work on the skills I need to be a better partner, and they get frustrated that they can only do an exercise 2 or 3 times before I say done as their dog is done we just keep going till I am satisfied that I got it right. And even then he will be right back in the ring looking hopeful to go again.

 

It bothers me when people say any dog can be a great agility dog, because that's just not true. Any physically sound dog can do agility and probably Q, but the dog's personality also factors into being a great agility dog.

I agree with you, when I said that an average dog in the hands of a world class trainer/handler can make it to the top of the sport, it was in reference to carefully selecting a puppy and the hunt for the next great thing. Not every dog is going to find agility a great fit, but a well bred border collie stands a better chance than a husky or a beagle.