Are there different meanings for the "Stare"?

[Roxadee]

I have heard that the "stare" could mean #1- the dog is ready to pounce, #2- the dog is going to bite,#3-the dog is asserting his/her dominance,...the list is endless.. I always thought the stare was to make what they are herding go into a certain direction. I never would have assumed it was a bad thing. Grace stares at Bella ( 4/5 pound chihuahua ) quite often, she plays with her but admittedly to rough for Bella's taste. Grace is now around 22 pounds, she is growing into a beautiful Border Collie. Grace will be on the love seat, Bella on her bed on the floor or just walking around, Grace is forever tracking her, if Bella goes from point A to part B Grace sits there looking at her. I guess my question is that do you think Bella is in any form of danger? Bella can't even go to the bathroom without Grace herding her to the door then not allowing her to go out, Bella can't go anywhere or do anything without Grace bossing her around.

[toney]

In this situation, it means that the puppy is basically being a jerk to your chihuahua. You need to stop the behavior. It can rapidly become an obsession, making the smaller dog's life completely miserable, as you have already noted. You need to correct the behavior EACH time it occurs to break this cycle. You can't correct her for blocking the chihuahua from going outside, but allow her to lie down and stare at the chihuahua endlessly inside. It's not fair to the chihuahua. And the chihuahuas I know will eventually lose their temper with the dog annoying them and it can lead to a serious injury for a small dog with a big attitude.

[GentleLake]

^^ Yep. This.

 

It's your responsibility to train your puppy to behave appropriately.

[chrisandgabe]

Staring is rude dog behavior, regardless of what it "means". Even if Grace isn't going to attack Bella, she's probably stressing her out, which isn't fair to your chihuahua, and not going to get better as the puppy gets older, unless you stop this now. Teach a good leave it, praise Grace for looking away or ignoring Bella, and make sure Bella is getting some free time while Grace is crated or otherwise occupied so she's not always getting stared down by this puppy. You also don't want Grace to learn it's okay to stare down any other dogs, because a lot of dogs won't put up with it (I own one of those dogs). When I assisted with reactive dog class, one of the first things we addressed was ways to stop the dogs from staring at each other, because it escalated dogs quickly.

[Gloria Atwater]

Also agree with the above. Whatever the "stare" may or may not be, it's rude in dog language for ANY dog to stare fixedly at another dog. It's not herding and it's not fun, and not even border collies want to be stared at by another border collie. I doubt your Grace will hurt your little Chi, but it's rude as heck for her to haunt the poor thing. All your poor Chi knows is that she has this big nitwit of a puppy literally dogging her around.

Bottom line, ask yourself this question: How would YOU feel about someone repeatedly following and staring at you? That's precisely how your Chi feels and it needs to stop now.

It's rude. It doesn't matter what it means. It's just not a good thing. Plus, as has been said, the last thing you want is for Grace to develop an obsession with following and staring at Bella, because then it will be a bad habit for life. Bella does not deserve that. Remember, border collies can and do develop obsessive behaviors and it's our job to nip them in the bud.

Grace can start getting in trouble for this, now. Train a stern, iron-clad "leave it" and give her an alternative behavior, such as coming to lay down by you or going to a certain spot to remain a while. You and Bella will both be much happier in the long run. Best of luck!

~ Gloria

[kingfisher7151]

To me, the stare means one thing: MOVE!!!! A silent, but clear, command to do something. As you probably know, border collies find movement to be extremely stimulating and satisfying.

 

But I completely concur, it needs to stop now.

 

I have major issues with people saying their dog "herds" by staring down their kids, cats, horses, feet, cars, shadows, whatever. No, the dog is just being an ass. It's innapropriate behavior no different than a dog staring and barking at all the above things. Just because the behavior may coincide with something productive (working stock) doesn't mean it's the complete behavior (herding). That would be like saying a GSD biting and barking is doing Schutzhund. Just, no.

[LauraV]

Grace is pretty much being a bully to Bella. As Grace gets bigger, this can put Bella in a bad situation. This needs to be addressed immediately. I agree with what was said above. I was lucky that my bc pup respected my bichon as an alpha. I would start teaching the leave it command. Soon this 22 pound puppy will be a full grown adult. It seems to be an obsession for Grace and that isn't healthy. I've heard (not saying this is completely correct) that female-female dog households can have problems in regards to dominance. So I'd watch out for that as well. It could be early signs of Grace showing dominant tendencies.

[LauraV]

https://www.cesarsway.com/dog-psychology/pack-position/dominant-or-submissive-which-is-your-dog

 

I know not everyone is a fan of Cesar, but I'd check this link out. It seems like she may be trying to push herself in the dominant female role.

[Roxadee]

I'm going to show you all a video of what is going on tomorrow ( its 12:45 ) so today. I want you all to know that Bella isn't innocent in all this either. Grace has her problems but Bella can get Grace going. Anyway the video should show you all clearly how this is See u later.

[mbc1963]

Opening day of the flea market yesterday. I took Cricket, who met almost all the other dogs with happiness. But there was a guy there with a large GSD. As soon as he saw Cricket - every time we passed each other - he would fixate and stare, dead-on, at her. She would pull the leash to squeeze as far away from the GSD as she could, and I myself could "feel" the gaze so strongly that I wanted to find a grassy spot to get off the main pathway, a good 10 feet from the big dog.

 

To me, it feels so strongly assertive as to be aggressive.

 

I'm picturing human interactions. When I'm walking or driving somewhere, and someone stares straight at me, it feels very intimidating. And I want to duck or move out of their way very quickly, without engaging with them. Even when toddlers do that dead-on stare thing - because they don't know any better - it's a weird feeling of pressure!

[chrisandgabe]

I'm going to show you all a video of what is going on tomorrow ( its 12:45 ) so today. I want you all to know that Bella isn't innocent in all this either. Grace has her problems but Bella can get Grace going. Anyway the video should show you all clearly how this is See u later.

 

 

Then you need to work with both dogs on leaving the other one alone. However, for safety I'd be more concerned about teaching the larger dog to ignore the smaller one, regardless of what they're doing, because your big dog is going to be capable of hurting the smaller one.

 

My in-laws have a little male Westie. The dog isn't trained at all (nice dog, but not well trained). Gabe's not great with other dogs, but these two have kind of figured out how to co-exist for a couple days at a time when we visit. I generally carry a large bag of treats and do LOTS of leave-its with Gabe. When the other dog does something annoying (tries to steal his toy, gets up in his face when Gabe is FINALLY relaxing, etc.) Gabe gets rewarded heavily for looking back to me and ignoring the dog. I regularly take Gabe into the basement or somewhere away from the other dog so things don't escalate. It's my job as the human to manage the situation, and try to make it the most positive experience for my dog as possible, and to make sure he's not escalating his behaviors to a point where he hurts another dog.

 

IMO, it doesn't matter what the "cause" of the behaviors is, you need to put a stop to it. The staring needs to stop, because if she starts doing it to other dogs outside of your house, it's going to be a problem. You probably also need to work on the little dog's not "instigating" Grace as well, but don't forget this rude puppy just moved into her home, is staring her down and making her uncomfortable constantly, and she doesn't have a lot of recourse. She probably has good reason for being "not innocent" in this situation. There's no good reason for the puppy to stare at her uncorrected.

[LauraV]

The more you are saying, the more it sounds like a dominance issue. The video will help, but either way, the sooner this gets resolved, the better.

[gcv-border]

I agree with the above responses.

 

I call this behavior the "stink eye".

 

My younger dog will occasionally do this to my older dog. And sometimes he will also block the doorway into a room where we watch TV. When I see him doing this, I call him to me (away from the door) and tell him to lie down. At other times, if I see him giving the stink eye to the older dog, I may tell him to 'knock it off' (and he knows what that means) or I may distract him (just depends).

[Islanddog]

Oh gosh, reminds me of Dynamo, my previous GSD. I think they are masters at that. Unfortunately, not enough people recognize it and deal with it. Dynamo could get someone's dog barking from across the room. She did this exactly once, thereafter, it was my job keep an eye out, distract her and make sure everyone else was have a comfy experience. The trainer (pet dog trainer) had no clue about stink eye. Other dogs were engaging in the behaviour freely, so I don't think it's common knowledge that such stares are not good. Which is odd, because yes, humans know it's rude and disturbing to stare at other humans, but don't transfer that knowledge to animals. People are people, dogs are dogs, but we are all mammals.

 

Opening day of the flea market yesterday. I took Cricket, who met almost all the other dogs with happiness. But there was a guy there with a large GSD. As soon as he saw Cricket - every time we passed each other - he would fixate and stare, dead-on, at her. She would pull the leash to squeeze as far away from the GSD as she could, and I myself could "feel" the gaze so strongly that I wanted to find a grassy spot to get off the main pathway, a good 10 feet from the big dog.

To me, it feels so strongly assertive as to be aggressive.

I'm picturing human interactions. When I'm walking or driving somewhere, and someone stares straight at me, it feels very intimidating. And I want to duck or move out of their way very quickly, without engaging with them. Even when toddlers do that dead-on stare thing - because they don't know any better - it's a weird feeling of pressure!

[Roxadee]

You know it isn't easy to get Grace to stop taking things from Bella and flat out bullying her but Grace is learning to leave her alone, she has wonderful victories and she is rewarded for that. When Grace is by herself you couldn't ask for a better dog, no kidding, add Bella and you have a free for all. I want to thank everyone again for helping me. I wanted to get a video of her doing this behavior but I can't allow her to do it just for a video! I thought about that after I posted it, my bad.

[chrisandgabe]

You know it isn't easy to get Grace to stop taking things from Bella and flat out bullying her but Grace is learning to leave her alone, she has wonderful victories and she is rewarded for that. When Grace is by herself you couldn't ask for a better dog, no kidding, add Bella and you have a free for all. I want to thank everyone again for helping me. I wanted to get a video of her doing this behavior but I can't allow her to do it just for a video! I thought about that after I posted it, my bad.

 

Raising puppies is hard! It takes a lot to be on top of the things they try to get away with and manage them enough that you end up with a nice adult dog. And I think the video probably isn't all that important, it doesn't really matter why she's doing it, or exactly what it looks like. Stares aren't a good thing for dogs to be doing, regardless of the situation.

[Gloria Atwater]

You know it isn't easy to get Grace to stop taking things from Bella and flat out bullying her but Grace is learning to leave her alone, she has wonderful victories and she is rewarded for that. When Grace is by herself you couldn't ask for a better dog, no kidding, add Bella and you have a free for all. I want to thank everyone again for helping me. I wanted to get a video of her doing this behavior but I can't allow her to do it just for a video! I thought about that after I posted it, my bad.

 

The thing with border collies is that their clever little brains never stop working! Even when it's to their or your detriment. Just don't hesitate to be strict and absolute with your NOs when she bothers Bella. This isn't a behavior she'll outgrow without firm boundaries being set. As I noted before, border collies can be prone to developing unpleasant/annoying little obsessions and though it may not seem like it right now, it's a whole lot easier to prevent an obsession than un-train one. Keep up the good work!

 

~ Gloria

[teresaserrano]

When I had a rambuctious pup and an impatient old blind dog, I stated martial law for a while where both had to stay in their beds and not bother the other when they where together inside. It was not a case of pup harrassing the older dog, the pup wanted very much to be friends but grumpy old dog felt bothered by everything, and showed it. Eventually the pup was bigger than the old dog, and began to object to being chastised constantly.

 

Making clear neither had permission to in any way bother the other worked well to stop the animosity that was forming. It would have worked even better not to have allowed their relationship to head that way, right from the start. It also helped a lot in teaching the pup that inside equals calm.