Sonic's 'High Anxiety' Class

[chrisandgabe]

I was thinking a lid too, or maybe a target stick or something. I feel like a target is useful in a different way than LAT, although if this is not working for either of you LAT seems like a good substitution. I think a physical redirection and coming towards you is a little bit different than just shifting attention.

 

In terms of what's useful of having reactive dogs in the presence of other reactive dogs for class...I think a lot of it is for the handlers. Then you see you're not the only one, and other people are more respectful of the space needed between other dogs. The focus of teaching the skills that you're learning are different than in a "traditional" obedience class.

 

The more he gets to learn the skills you're working on, the more he'll be able to handle experiencing friendly dogs.

 

Just keep at it! It's a slow process, but working on the skills your dog needs (even if it's a step or two behind where "homework" is) will set you up for success in the long-run.

[Islanddog]

Class #3 (one more to go)

Not fun.

Down to 2 dogs, Sierra, nervy white shepherd and Sonic, my guy. After fifteen minutes, neither dog could handle being in the same room as the other dog. Buy the end of the class, opposite corners of the entire space (separated by full glass wall, and a half-plywood door) was not good enough. There was no frenzied crazy barking, but there was staring followed by barking/lunging. Frequently. I kept taking Sonic out of the main room, to the separate room to calm him down. Whenever I took him back to the main room, he'd work for me again but as soon I had him in motion, Sierra would bark at him. Sonic would bark back. In motion exercises, Sonic would also lunge. Between all this going on, Sonic was still paying attention, working for me, interested in treats, but absolutely no interest in toys. He looked stressed, more towards the end of class.

There was a period of peace, when Sierra was made to wear some sort of eyewear thing, Thundercap . With this on, Sierra no longer barked at Sonic so we could work in the same room. When the cap came off, the barking started up again. By this time, Sonic was just expecting to be barked at, and looking more stressed, but working. I was staying in the other room by this time, so the trainer had to go back and forth between us with dogs in opposite corners (ie, I could not hear her discussions with the other owner, too far away). Sonic was still trying very hard, but also getting serious about sniffing and marking (and snuck one pee in while I was trying to pay attention to instructions). The last half of the class was conducted separately.

The actually behaviours going on in the class were never addressed (maybe my comings and going were correct, and therefore did not need addressing). The trainer continued with her lesson plan which she adheres to. This was now advanced obedience that Sonic is far from ready for, but I had to try. It was okay, sort of, since it was treat training, but still... My efforts to explain Sonics unreadiness where met with dismissal and sarcasm—trainer is very hard to deal with. She has a set plan and sticks to it. I caved except one point where I could see Sonic ready to shut down and I cut it off, and gave him some freebies—he was pretty much finished by then, exhausted by the combined stress of training and being barked at by a dog that actively dislikes him.

There were some gems of information to be had, mostly to park in my brain for future use.

I will add that Sonic is making progress in the real world. We took him to the dog park on his long line and worked outside of the dogpark and he was doing beautiful look at thats and recalls, just outside the fence, even when the dogs were barking and staring at him. Sonic was aware that these where friendly dogs but I'm relieved that he still recognizes the difference. He was happy to collect his treats and unconcerned, relaxed, interested, happy to be in the proximity of friendly dogs.

Some day I want to be able to get him by dogs just like Sierra without him getting upset, so I'm not sure how I feel about taking him back to the class. My neighbourhood has plenty of reactive dogs and tight spaces so going for a normal walk will include getting barked at

Would love some advice on how to handle Class #4 (last class). My husband is with me for each class. He pays attention to the instruction when I cannot (me paying attention is getting very difficult). He also can keep an eye on the other dog/s for me. Sierra seems to be under good physical control, and was not doing crazy endless barking, just brief outbursts, with Sonic reacting in kind. I'm pretty sure that by the end of class they were both giving and taking.

My real world practice is going well, and with better weather, there will be more dogs to practice with.

Thanks for your collective wisdom.

[alligande]

I don't have any advice for your last class, but just wanted to say my relatively dog friendly border collie hates being barked at, especially on a leash... And will usually bark back. And to be honest I can't blame him, it is stressful getting yelled at. So I am not surprised that sonic finds the class stressful.

[urge to herd]

I am admiring your commitment to Sonic and how much you're working with him. And I'm beginning to think that border collies, (some of them at least) are waaaay more sensitive to social pressure/movement/any stimulation whatsoever than I realized.

 

I just finished a tricks class at a local humane society. The first series of 6 classes were w/the instructor from agility classes, and were in a pretty good sized space - lots of room between dog/human teams, and barriers if needed. I wound up giving Gibbs a break about half way through each class. The instructor took pains to figure out how to make something work for each team

 

Trick training 2 was taught in a much smaller space, where if any dog took more than 4 or 5 steps, they were in another dog's space. There were barriers available, but it made the space seem even smaller. And it was much noisier. The instructor and her assistant are AKC folk, and were pretty much 'here's how you train this trick'. I won't be taking another course w/this instructor. Very little specific help for me and my dog - no problem solving for my limitations or for Gibbs. I was always tired and cranky when class was over, and so was Gibbs. At least some of that was the close quarters in that classroom.

 

In your shoes, and with the experience I've just had, (my last class was a couple days ago) I'd seriously consider not going to the last class. If Sonic is making progress in his real world work, and the class is not giving you or your dog anything positive, why waste the time? It's possible that at least some of Sonic's progress outside of class is due to the work you're doing in the class, but I'd look at that very, very carefully.

 

I'll be signing up for another tricks class, with the instructor I like. I'll also be checking w/her before hand to make sure it will be in the larger room.

 

I want to say too that I really enjoy reading about how Sonic is doing, and the progress you're making. Makes me remember some great times w/dogs that have passed on, and enjoy the changes I still see in Gibbs after having him for almost 6 years.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[chrisandgabe]

In your shoes, I think I'd skip the last class. Putting sonic is a stressful situation isn't going to help him manage his stress better, and the instructor needs to adapt her class to what's going on with the dogs in the room, not what her lesson plan is. I think I'd just read control unleashed and make your own program for him. Excellent work on the outside-of-class improvements!

[GentleLake]

I think I'd skip the last class as well . . . . and ask for a refund along with telling the instructor why. Not so much to be snarky, but if she's interested in improving her skills as a trainer, she'll appreciate the feedback. If not, oh, well, you tried and even if it's not apprieciated now, it might sink in later.

[Islanddog]

Thanks. More later when I get a keyboard in hand, but my husband is contacting her. We want to take the last class but set up at the backdoor so I and Sonic can leave and walk it off or calm outdoors. Will see what she says. My husband would stay and listen.

No refunds in my neck of the woods, standard practice, but I'm not putting Sonic through that again, my husband has better people skills than me so we'll see what response he gets.

[Islanddog]

Week 3: Homework (condensed version of my handout)

 

Exercise--try to find ways to physically tire your dog before walking them (me: no instructions on how to engage or teach play, just suggesting to do so, but not how to get there)

 

Extended Stays: (me: missing is any instruction on how to handle dog when the dogs breaks the stay, or how to get there, but does mention distance, duration, time)

 

Emergency Drop: (will now quote exactly, as I think this technique may not be good for Sonic, as he is hand-shy, handler sensitive)

With your dog standing in front of you place the hand from your heeling side on their leash

Have food in opposite hand and quickly bring it down between their front legs as you give the command 'drop'. You may need to give a very slight downward pressure on the collar

Encourage them to respond as quickly as possible and don't deliver the treat on the ground between their legs until the rear is completely down in the " sphinx" position.

Wait a moment before releasing them.

Gradually work on 'drop' while heeling, by pivoting in front of them to give the command.

 

Strangers- working in a parking lot far enough away that dog is not triggered (me; Sonic is fine with strangers, and I go to Walmart to practice, Walmart is one of his happy places)

 

Me Again: Observations

 

Class agenda is far too advanced for Sonic. Seems to be for dogs that where already in training for extended time, but training was not getting them where they need to go. Seems to be more for dogs for whom 'management' through obedience training is your best and only option. Nothing in the way of counter-conditioning, teaching play/games, creating a bond with the handler, or engagement. Which is where I'm at with Sonic.

 

Good news. Took Sonic on a walk and we got by several 'barking window dogs' and he didn't care. Some of those 'window dogs' where barking while Sonic 'said hi' to a neighbour. Ie. she wanted to meet Sonic, we chatted, brief greeting and pets. Same walk, I actually got by a fenced 'pop up' barking dog, relatively under threshold (dog behind privacy fence, popping up and barking), Sonic went from lunging forward but return for treat without hitting the end of the line, to walking by on the other side of the street ignoring (I'm sure quite deliberately) the pop up dog.

Also got by 3 fenced barking dogs (all of them in one yard). In both cases, though, the dogs were co-operative and not crazy mean, in that they were just barking excitedly, and got bored with Sonic's training manoevres. We have some seriously scary dogs in the neighbourhood, these where not.

Also, at a park, a very kind lady sat on bench with her placid leashed golden retriever and I spent time walking back and forth 'under-threshold' with Sonic, we had a conversation, her golden was an awesome teacher and remained calm throughout. I did not have them meet. It will be a long time before I try a leashed dog meeting.

Weird thing is, he's fine on his long line. It's the leash, and it's me, I think.

And I managed in the yard to get him to play tug and flirt pole with fake squirrels (we feed birds, so there's plenty of real squirrels around that he goes ape about so this is a big deal).

 

Update: we'll go to the last class, but take Sonic out of the building if nonsense ensues. I'm kinda expecting by this time he's just going to walk in on the defensive and stay that way; as each class has been an escalation of the behaviour from both dogs. So it may be my husband taking the class.

 

This class (training style) would have been fine for Dynamo , which explains why I thought she was a good trainer way back when, but seriously flawed now. (except I'm still not sure if putting a dog into a room with other dogs yelling "When I get you, I will kill you" at intervals is a good idea for any dog let alone a reactive dog) It'll be 'home-schooling' from now on.

 

Edit--just downloaded 'Control Unleashed', there will be a 'home schooling thread coming up if you folks don't mind'

[urge to herd]

It sounds like the both of you are having a great time and making lots of progress - way to go! Keep up the good work.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[Islanddog]

It sounds like the both of you are having a great time and making lots of progress - way to go! Keep up the good work.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Thanks! I'm learning so much here, and breed does matter (or half-breed as the case may be).

"Control Unleashed" 1/2 way through, great stuff.

More later, when I get near a keyboard.

[Islanddog]

I don't have any advice for your last class, but just wanted to say my relatively dog friendly border collie hates being barked at, especially on a leash... And will usually bark back. And to be honest I can't blame him, it is stressful getting yelled at. So I am not surprised that sonic finds the class stressful.

Thanks for that, it`s really good to know I`m not alone, and it`s really a big help to hear from you in this thread (or any!)

[Islanddog]

We made it. Sadly, Sonic was predictably worse, more barking/lunging episodes, less attention, BUT the trainer had the back door propped open, so we could go in and out. We took most of the class in the back alley, and even there, he still 'had words' for the indoor dogs, but he did at times give me full attention, and he was thrilled to play 'let's go' and tug in the alley.

The dogs were: the aggressive white shepherd from class 1 (the one that could not be in a room with other dogs, he took the room behind the glass), Sierra again, who got the main room front corner, and Sonic, I got the back of the room and the alley. The trainer accommodated all of us, going from dog to dog. My husband would have stayed in the room to listen, but his presence at the door seemed to trigger the other dogs, so the class was a three-way split.

I learned some techniques, tips, strategies to keep in my back pocket for the future. I hope Sonic at least learned a little more trust, as I took him in and out of that room and nothing bad happened. We ended class indoors and all three dogs were finally quiet and no eye contact. His attitude ranged from excited, over-excited, focussed, and only very briefly fearful/sad, most of his barking was of the high pitched excited variety, not the throaty growly kind, so while I was not happy with his behaviour (he's living up to his name, I should have called him Mouse instead) he seemed more confident overall. He was never reluctant to rejoin (go back inside) the class.

Thank you everyone for your advice and stories. It is so much appreciated, even just listening, even a 'my dog doesn't like to be barked at too', and also for real expertise shared.

I'm still on the fence about 'reactive dog class's' in general, as the while the knowledge is needed, putting a bunch of dogs together for an eyeball and posturing hour still doesn't seem like a good idea. In a larger facility, more space and solid visual barriers for time outs would probably make a difference.

Very glad to be reading Control Unleashed, great tip, thanks, and on to home schooling Sonic.

Your support through this has been awesome.

[gcv-border]

Although you still sound a bit frustrated, I think Sonic has made significant improvements (based on your descriptions). I will bet that he will continue to improve as you employ the techniques and knowledge you have learned (and will continue to learn).

 

One tip that I have seen elsewhere is to keep a journal. When you are feeling frustrated, it can be rewarding to go back and remind yourself where you (Sonic) started. Because I predict that forward progress might be maddeningly slow at time, and even backwards, with a reactive dog, journaling can help remind you how far you have come.

 

I wish that I had kept track of the improvement that Gael (a foster dog from a puppy mill) made during the time of her foster period. When I think back on it, I am so pleased with her progress - even though I thought she might be a 'foster failure' after 4 weeks with me because she was still so shut down. Then she started a slow, but steady, improvement. She was still a 'project dog' when she was adopted, but she was adopted by a retired woman who had the time and knowledge to work with her - having had 2 fearful dogs previously. But I regret not journaling and thus losing the memories of the little improvements that she made along the way.

[Islanddog]

Although you still sound a bit frustrated, I think Sonic has made significant improvements (based on your descriptions). I will bet that he will continue to improve as you employ the techniques and knowledge you have learned (and will continue to learn).

 

One tip that I have seen elsewhere is to keep a journal. When you are feeling frustrated, it can be rewarding to go back and remind yourself where you (Sonic) started. Because I predict that forward progress might be maddeningly slow at time, and even backwards, with a reactive dog, journaling can help remind you how far you have come.

 

I wish that I had kept track of the improvement that Gael (a foster dog from a puppy mill) made during the time of her foster period. When I think back on it, I am so pleased with her progress - even though I thought she might be a 'foster failure' after 4 weeks with me because she was still so shut down. Then she started a slow, but steady, improvement. She was still a 'project dog' when she was adopted, but she was adopted by a retired woman who had the time and knowledge to work with her - having had 2 fearful dogs previously. But I regret not journaling and thus losing the memories of the little improvements that she made along the way.

I should; it's a great tip.

I think I understand 'shut down' as an insider. When I feel things are not going right, I don't want to record anything or even communicate about it (which is why I've been so lazy about replying to really helpful people/posts. I read but don't answer. But I should.

Sonic's really not that bad (he just had a wonderful hour at the dog park with my husband/and dogs--I may not have said it here, but Sonic does actually like the company of friendly dogs). But yes, I should. This thread is part 1 of that journal.

Going forward, it's a matter of teaching/focusing on escape routes for him. Letting him feel he has choices or can avoid scary dogs when he's leashed and teaching him various ways of avoidance (or letting him figure it out).

A few things he has done on leash with dogs he's is not comfortable with.

Sit or lie down with his back to the dog and focused on me.

Walk on the opposite side looking away and sniffing.

Things I can do: "let's go" , 'u-turns' , leave the area, 'look at that' game.

In a 'no win' guaranteed over threshold situation, grab harness or shorten leash so he can't make eye-contact or lunge into traffic (yes, the road at home is that narrow--no sidewalk, no shoulder). This has actually worked, twice, in keeping him somewhat okay (no barking), the 2nd time even better (I didn't need the harness) and the other dog did not turn into cujo as I'm sure he would have (chained dog) if Sonic had been barking and lunging towards him. (I try to avoid these circumstances as much as possible, but if I don't drive elsewhere, it's what we deal with) I don't walk him in that direction much, yet, it's a goal.

 

The homeschooling should be a journal, must start. There is so much more I want for him than 'does not lunge at fenced barking dogs'. Sometimes he plays, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he gives me those laser beam eyes and wants more more more in terms of training, but sometimes I get that 'math is hard' eye blinking look, and other times, well, it's squirrel, squirrel, squirrel.

Maybe I need a check list, with different places as the criteria/behaviour depending on the where and what.

Thanks for tips.

[WickAndArtoo]

We work privately with a trainer on reactivity... She brings her very calm non reactive dog to work with wick (it didn't even react when wick was barking and lunging etc in its face) I am now able to bring wick past dogs on walks without episodes of reactivity. I really recommend seeing if you can find a different trainer willing to do that with you and sonic. We only saw her 3 times before he completely stopped, it was a miracle. I am sure it depends a lot on the dog and trainer but wick was unbearably reactive before we went to see her, she is amazing though so idk if you'll find someone as good .

[Gloria Atwater]

Hi Island Dog ~

For what it's worth, I would not consider that trainer or her class any sort of measure for Sonic's progress or lack thereof. A trainer who runs her classes with a "one size must fit all" mentality isn't someone I would hold in very high regard, and it sounds like she permitted an undue amount of chaos in her class while expecting the dogs to somehow just "cowboy up" and deal with it.

YOU are doing a fabulous job with your boy. Follow your gut instincts and keep doing your research. You two have already come a long way together and you'll continue to do well.

~ Gloria

[alligande]

I think you are making huge progress, putting a bunch of reactive dogs in one room seems to be asking for a lot of chaos that is not going to help. Many years ago before I had a clue about reactivity or dog training I met a big lab while we were finishing our walk, he was on a leash and the owner was very tense and she said he was aggressive to other dogs, guarded his toys, and was going to a special class. We just hung out chatted for awhile, the big lab seemed very relaxed so she let him off lead and he hung out, it did not take long before my supremely confident border collie had his tennis ball and the lab did not even blink. The labs owner was thrilled and felt he had more progress hanging out with my 2 than he had in class, which even then made sense to me, a couple of confident dogs, or a room full of nervous ones.

Keep up the good work, it can be a long journey, but you are getting there.

[Islanddog]

We work privately with a trainer on reactivity... She brings her very calm non reactive dog to work with wick (it didn't even react when wick was barking and lunging etc in its face) I am now able to bring wick past dogs on walks without episodes of reactivity. I really recommend seeing if you can find a different trainer willing to do that with you and sonic. We only saw her 3 times before he completely stopped, it was a miracle. I am sure it depends a lot on the dog and trainer but wick was unbearably reactive before we went to see her, she is amazing though so idk if you'll find someone as good .

What a great opportunity. It sounds wonderful to have private lessons. I would agree that private is best if you can find the right trainer and afford it.

[Islanddog]

Hi Island Dog ~

 

For what it's worth, I would not consider that trainer or her class any sort of measure for Sonic's progress or lack thereof. A trainer who runs her classes with a "one size must fit all" mentality isn't someone I would hold in very high regard, and it sounds like she permitted an undue amount of chaos in her class while expecting the dogs to somehow just "cowboy up" and deal with it.

 

YOU are doing a fabulous job with your boy. Follow your gut instincts and keep doing your research. You two have already come a long way together and you'll continue to do well.

 

~ Gloria

Hindsight is 20 20. She told me she screens dogs for class (evaluates them) so I wasn't expecting the level of aggressive behaviour that was directed at Sonic. I think I fell for some fallacy (the name which escapes me, sunk money?) that gamblers fall for. After you've sunk your money and can't get it back, you keep going and convince yourself it's all worth it in the end.

I'm pretty sure people lurk and learn on posts like this, so while my class is over (yay!) there's probably something useful to be learned from all the discussion.

Thanks for compliments. We had a nice home-schooling lesson this morning, chasing fabric squirrels and targetting a duct-taped stick.

[Islanddog]

I think you are making huge progress, putting a bunch of reactive dogs in one room seems to be asking for a lot of chaos that is not going to help. Many years ago before I had a clue about reactivity or dog training I met a big lab while we were finishing our walk, he was on a leash and the owner was very tense and she said he was aggressive to other dogs, guarded his toys, and was going to a special class. We just hung out chatted for awhile, the big lab seemed very relaxed so she let him off lead and he hung out, it did not take long before my supremely confident border collie had his tennis ball and the lab did not even blink. The labs owner was thrilled and felt he had more progress hanging out with my 2 than he had in class, which even then made sense to me, a couple of confident dogs, or a room full of nervous ones.

Keep up the good work, it can be a long journey, but you are getting there.

That lab sounds like my Sonic. I think 'reactive' is thrown around and describes too many behaviours; from a dog that freaks out at the sight of any and all dogs, to one like mine that knows how to 'read dogs' quite well but doesn't trust fences, chains, and leashes to do their job. Considering that I don't even trust the latter, I think Sonic's actually quite sensible, but the reality is, a dog that reacts while walking by a poorly restrained aggressive dog is more likely to get nailed than a calm/confident dog, so I still want to get that behaviour undercontrol so I can walk him through my neighbourhood.

[GentleLake]

I think 'reactive' is thrown around and describes too many behaviours; from a dog that freaks out at the sight of any and all dogs, to one like mine that knows how to 'read dogs' quite well but doesn't trust fences, chains, and leashes to do their job.

 

I dunno . . . both of the dogs you describe are reactive, but to different things.

 

"Reactive" itself is a general term that describes a situation in which the dog reacts disproportionately to the circumstance. Exactly what the dog reacts to and/or the specific type of reaction is where the nuances come in.

 

JMO, of course.