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Alternative To CGC


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"Canine Good Citizenship" the term alone makes me itch...

Looked up this pledge you talk about, says basically "take good care of your dog" (but I do not see any reason to bathe my dogs...).

I would never take such a pledge for an organization as the AKC (but I could formulate a nice pledge for them to take.. :D )

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I don't know of any official alternative. You certainly could always train the elements and have a friend "test" them if you are just looking to master the skills, but as far as anything official, I don't know of anything.

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In short, not very. Some places like St. John's Ambulance and Delta Society require that dogs have their CGNs prior to attempting to become therapy dogs. Some landlords like to hear that dogs have their certification. But, again, legally, it doesn't hold much weight.

 

I got my dog certified when she was ~8 months old, I think. A lot can change, temperament-wise, between an 8 month old that passes the test and a mature dog, but obviously she's 'certified' for life. Basically, while I think the test is a good thing, I don't think it holds much water.The stringency of examiners varies widely as well.

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Way back in the dark ages of the late 1980's and 90's I was at several CGC certification events. (The entry drug for the AKC)

 

I saw dogs pass that were barking non-stop, running all over the course and generally being out of hand. Some dogs went three times on the same day with no change in their unruliness, but a pass on the third attempt. So no, it doesn't mean anything.

 

I will never understand the allure of ribbons and certificates for conformation, obedience or the like. So your dog is well-behaved. Shouldn't that be certificate enough? So your dog is pretty. That and four bucks will get you a latte'.

 

It's different if your dog's comportment must be tested prior to getting some sort of meaningful work, like a cadaver dog, drug-sniffing dog, search and rescue dog, assistance dog, etc. But I would hope to Pete the dogs being trained for real jobs do better than those I saw at CGC tests.

 

Sorry if I offend. I'm an old curmudgeon and I know it, but sheesh...

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I will never understand the allure of ribbons and certificates for conformation, obedience or the like. So your dog is well-behaved. Shouldn't that be certificate enough? So your dog is pretty. That and four bucks will get you a latte'.

Obedience is a sport, ie, it's a stylized series of behaviours that may or may not mirror real life. To assume a dog with its obedience championship is well behaved outside of the ring isn't always safe. And my dog is pretty (and does a few other things) and she earns her keep pretty well as a result. :D

 

People in all walks of life want to showcase their prowess for their hobbies, from gardening to model airplanes and beyond. Surely to want to showcase your work with your dog isn't too outlandish. I took your post in jest and retort with tongue in cheek. So please don't misinterpret anything I've said as mean spirited.

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You could always do one of the therapy dog tests with your dog. It's harder but it means pretty much the same thing and unless the CGC is for some thing that specifically requires it, I think most people view the therapy dog certification as better than a CGC one anyways. It doesn't mean you have to do therapy dog work, just means you could. But there may be some obvious issues with this plan, I'm not sure, I've never tried it. I'm not sure if a society requires you to do a certain amount of therapy dog hours if you get certified or anything.

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How "official" is the CGC? Isn´t that just a self proclaimed title from the AKC? Or does it carry any legal weight beyond that club?

 

It doesn't carry any legal weight, but I do know of cases where people have used the fact that the dog has a CGC to sway a decision in housing (where pets allowed may be by approval only) and lodging.

 

Technically, the place where I train requires that the dog pass the CGC test before going on to higher level classes, but neither Tessa nor Bandit have one!! I would never ask Tessa to allow a stranger to touch her outside of a veterinary situation, and I would never ask her to accept brushing from anyone other than myself.

 

I had to drop out of the classes with Bandit because they were on Tuesday nights and that's my work meeting day, so I can only do Tuesday classes in the summer. He did pass his Puppy Star at the end of basic class, though. Same deal as the CGC - you only pay AKC if you send in for it.

 

When you take the class with the CGC, you can take the test for free at the end, but if you want the official paperwork, you have to send in the check to AKC. So, it works well if you don't actually want to pay AKC anything.

 

Anyway, I got to go on to the classes I wanted for them without it, so it's not really an issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

That said, back in the day, I worked HARD to get Maddie and Speedy to the point where they could pass. Maddie kept barking at the other dog on the dog to dog test, and Speedy had issues for a long time with being touched. Both of them failed it several times, and we trained A LOT to get to the point where they could pass, but eventually passed and I was quite proud of that accomplishment.

 

I guess whether or not it means something is up to the person doing the training and taking the test. It meant a lot to me with Maddie and Speedy, and Dean Dog, too. By the time I got to Tessa, I didn't care about it anymore.

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Way back in the dark ages of the late 1980's and 90's I was at several CGC certification events. (The entry drug for the AKC)

 

I saw dogs pass that were barking non-stop, running all over the course and generally being out of hand. Some dogs went three times on the same day with no change in their unruliness, but a pass on the third attempt. So no, it doesn't mean anything.

 

I will never understand the allure of ribbons and certificates for conformation, obedience or the like. So your dog is well-behaved. Shouldn't that be certificate enough? So your dog is pretty. That and four bucks will get you a latte'.

 

It's different if your dog's comportment must be tested prior to getting some sort of meaningful work, like a cadaver dog, drug-sniffing dog, search and rescue dog, assistance dog, etc. But I would hope to Pete the dogs being trained for real jobs do better than those I saw at CGC tests.

 

Sorry if I offend. I'm an old curmudgeon and I know it, but sheesh...

 

First, your experience of the CGC and mine have been quite different. My own dogs have failed for much less than what you describe.

 

It depends a lot on the evaluators, I'd wager.

 

Second . . .

 

You would be quite put out if you ever saw Tessa's BOXES of ribbons.

 

Well, I could take her out in the yard and have her jump over a log. Shouldn't that be enough? She's pretty. Shouldn't that be enough?

 

Sure. It's "enough". It's "enough" that she is willing to live in my home and be my dog. For Tessa that was the accomplishment of a lifetime.

 

And yet, we spend endless time training. I am constantly introducing her to new exercises and games. We are constantly off to classes and competitions. Denise Fenzi could take a nice trip on what I have paid for classes through her online Academy over the last couple of years!

 

Personally, I'm not really thinking in terms of "enough". Tessa and I are too busy enjoying this ride together for me to want to settle for "enough".

 

Dog sports are something that my dogs and I enjoy, and I enjoy the ribbons.

 

Yes . . . I . . . enjoy . . . the ribbons!!

 

I take pictures of Tessa with her ribbons and I keep them in boxes. I would not love her any less if she didn't have a ribbon or Q or title to her name. But . . . what an awesome ride we are taking together. Personally, I love the tangible milestones that come in the form of colorful, pretty ribbons.

 

That's me. I don't expect you to be the same.

 

But . . . don't expect me to think as you do on the matter, either. I'm just . . . different. :D

 

(BTW - not offended!! I always enjoy a hearty discussion of different perspectives and points of view!)

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Well, I could take her out in the yard and have her jump over a log. Shouldn't that be enough? She's pretty. Shouldn't that be enough?

 

Sure. It's "enough". It's "enough" that she is willing to live in my home and be my dog. For Tessa that was the accomplishment of a lifetime.

...............

Personally, I'm not really thinking in terms of "enough". Tessa and I are too busy enjoying this ride together for me to want to settle for "enough".

 

Dog sports are something that my dogs and I enjoy, and I enjoy the ribbons.

 

Yes . . . I . . . enjoy . . . the ribbons!!

 

I take pictures of Tessa with her ribbons and I keep them in boxes. I would not love her any less if she didn't have a ribbon or Q or title to her name. But . . . what an awesome ride we are taking together. Personally, I love the tangible milestones that come in the form of colorful, pretty ribbons.

 

That's me. I don't expect you to be the same.

 

But . . . don't expect me to think as you do on the matter, either. I'm just . . . different. :D

 

(BTW - not offended!! I always enjoy a hearty discussion of different perspectives and points of view!)

 

 

I agree. It just thought it'd be fun to have the "official" certificate. But I'm not going to pay the AKC to get one.

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Everybody is diferent and that's what's great about people (and dogs). Kristine, you love the ribbons and that's great. Why not? That's who you are. Me, I hate exposure and DO need to prove stuff to myself, but definitely not to the world. So I was never interested in the ribbons, just in training hard and acomplishing something with my dogs, but just for us... not sure if I'm explaining this right.

 

Anyway, I'm certainly not better, or worse, than christine because I don't value competition and ribbons and she does. I'm just a person with a different temperament. At work, I know I do a good professional job, and that's my aim, for me to be satisfied with the quality of my work. And although it's nice to understand other people think my work is good, I very much apreciate as little public praise as possible. It embarasses me. I don't much care if professionally people like ME much, I just care that what I'm paid to do is well done, that I can be proud of my work. It's a bit the same with dog competitions, I feel uncomfortable proving stuff to others, it doesn't fit with who I am. But that's just it, who I am is not who everybody else is. Thank god, imagine the boredom :) Variety rules.

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I am a person who, much like a few of my dogs, really thrives on outside validation.

 

When I started agility, I said that I was never going to compete - I just wanted to learn something new and do something with my dog. Then I said I'd do one trial, because I wanted that experience.


As it turns out, I really like being able to have some sort of validation of a job well done. I want to be able to have this ... ribbon and title that I can point to and say we are HERE, now and when we started we were THERE. I like the *data* that comes with those ribbons (or lack of) - faults, yards per second, placement, Run Index info, whatever.


I don't pressure my dog - the point is still primarily having fun with my dog, but I like the map, I guess, that comes along as much as I like validation and something shiny to take away to remember the times I did really well and having that thing to PROVE it.


I could say my dog is capable of X, Y, and Z in the backyard and you can believe that she's capable or not, but if I say she's just finished her Open agility title and is now in Elite, there isn't much to argue with. It also isn't subjective. It means she's earned so many points, or had X many runs go perfectly and be fast enough. It doesn't mean *I* think she's good enough eyeballing it through another lens. Data and time and a judge said so.


That's all... good for me. Satisfying.


That doesn't make me better or worse, it just is.


And also? I enjoy training the dogs. The dogs enjoy being trained. The dogs who don't (and I have at least one, and one who only sometimes enjoy it) do much less. It's a win/win all around.

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Actually, I am not really interested in proving anything to the world. At one time I was, but now it really is about setting personal goals and striving to meet them - and the experiences that my dogs and I have as we work toward those goals together (the training and trialing/titling). I really thrive under structure, and competitions provide me with that.

 

I don't mind doing that in public. I've been performing in front of people in some way or another since I was in 4th Grade and I did my first flute solo in front of the entire school. I found that I enjoyed that. And I enjoy the camaraderie and social aspects of competition. But . . . I am blessed to compete among supportive people.

 

Yes, it is a personal preference thing. And what works best for one person won't suit another.

 

My rather spirited response really was triggered specifically by Geonni's question, "Isn't it enough?" And my response really does line up nicely with yours, teresaserrano . . . we are all different. :)

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I forgot I do enter some trials... I do the exams to pass classes at obedience training. And I do compete in dogdisc (well, just the once, last year, but I intend to compete again this year). But dogdisc competition is so much fun! The people are very relaxed and easy going, everybody has a blast, people and dogs, and afterwards we all drink some beers and nobody is really worried if they got a good score. I mean, people like to do their and their dog's best, but winning a title is not that important. That I can do.

For example, last year I was tied for 3rd place with a guy, and we both did one throw. He throws much farther away than me, and he threw so far that his dog failed the catch. I only had to do a mediocre throw to "win" 3rd place. After I told him, you know I don't throw far, there was no need for you to do such a long distance throw... and he said, well I'm absolutely not worried, we had fun, I like to throw far and my dog likes it too, no problem if we fail. I like this mindset. But some other sports have a very competitive atmosfere that doesn't agree with me.

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It's really interesting to hear, not only how people do different things for different reasons, but also how people do the same things for different reasons.

Personally, I thrive on competition. I like to have concrete standards to measure myself up against, because I like concrete things in general. Not because there's any particular goal I need to get to. Not because I'll feel as if I failed if I do less well than someone else. I just like to know where I am. I tracked Aed's weight religiously but didn't care what it ended up at. Same thing with agility. I will definitely trial and I will definitely like ribbons, because they give me concrete proof of how far I've come with my dog. That's just my nature. It's classic Myers-Briggs type stuff.

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I should really say that how different the atmosphere is, IMO, depends more on location and venue than sport. Frankly my agility trials are some of the most laid back things on the planet. Once in a while we get someone a little too 'uptight' at one of the local ones and I once went to one that was kind of... tense.


But in general? It's a picnic. People bring food and put on a table or order pizza, we stand around and eat and watch each other and chat about dogs and life, play with our dogs, do our runs and at MOST walk out and kind of look bewildered because "What was that?!" while laughing. Mostly no one cares all *that* much, even the people who really like and want titles.

 

It's just not a big deal. It's two days of a sport with other people who love the sport and dogs, with some spectators coming through to ask questions, watch or last trial just raid our food table. They are **NOTHING** like the big trials you see on television or youtube when you start hitting international agility or AKC invitationals or whatever.

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Dear Doggers,

On a couple occasions I've got a phone call saying I'd won the trial I left earlier that afternoon. That feels good but not enough so I'll wait until the trial ends or look at scores. I may check them to see how I differ from the judge and sometimes, qualifying for this or that, I'm as point hungry as the next man but generally I don't give a damn.

I am very demanding. I walk out there to for a Beauty however long we're on the field and I don't get that unless I want it very badly and work very hard.

 

I bury a dog's ribbons and trophies with the dog.

 

Donald McCaig

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Dear Doggers,

 

I bury a dog's ribbons and trophies with the dog.

 

Donald McCaig

If I didn't cremate my pets, I think I would do this. (Yes, I have several plastic boxes of dog and cat ashes.)

 

If I was to do this, I would have to start collecting (the few) ribbons that we actually win at trials. When I started, I would collect the ribbons. After a year or so, I would just collect the Qualifying ribbon. Now, I don't even bother to do that. I know in my mind what my dog did, and if he gets a title, he gets a nice little certificate in the mail. That is good enough for me.

 

I would rather the club keep the ribbon and use it next year (or next trial) to keep costs down. (although it probably doesn't make much difference)

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My sister in law just got her dog CGC certified. Put the little AKC tag on his collar and everything.

 

2 years ago this dog bit two people, including my sister in law (she was just walking the dog down the street when he bit her). He punctured her arm several times, needed stitches at the ER and the dog was quarantined for rabies. In some towns or counties, this dog would have been labeled dangerous and required to adhere to certain restrictions. The town here does not have a dangerous dog law. But for her the CGC is a big accomplishment because they had talked about euthanizing him after. I personally see it another way too, that the CGC is meaningless as far as an assessment to a dogs temperament or ability to be a good dog in public.

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I'm a competition kind of person. I like the validation to somebody other than myself that I accomplished X.

 

Basically, what CptJack said. Although I do thrive on some formal, serious environments. I haven't trailed dogs, but I've shown horses for a long time. I love the big shows. The busy warm up pen, the bright flashes in the show pen, the trainers shouting from the sidelines, I just love it. I find my zen in those high-pressure situations. As such, I tend to work better with trainers and in environments that are quite driven and serious. I get frustrated (not at people of course, it's just this internal dissonance) when I take everything seriously and I'm in a "just for fun" environment. I cherish every trophy, ribbon, and buckle I win. Every one of them is a mile marker on our long journey. I also like titles. I don't have any dog ones of course, but they're unquestionable proof to yourself and everyone else that you accomplished something.

 

I'm also a little crazy.

 

I think the CGC tests are pointless. And yet, I want those three titles to his name. I don't think I'll ever get them, I really hate supporting the AKC. But I can see how, for some people, they're a pretty big deal. People spend a lot of time preparing their dogs to pass a test, and it can be a big achievement for some dogs.

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