BC in apartment, car travelling, nail grinding

[zeroka974]

Hello Everyone,

 

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Prior to committing to buy our border collies there were a few questions I had and I found very little information or people with practical experience sharing it online.

 

I will address the following:

 

1) car travelling

2) apartment living with a border collie

3) nail grinding for collies kept in an apartment

 

Car travelling

My wife has a small coupe (Audi TT) and I have a convertible, both with full leather interior.

We had some concerns about how the travelling will look like once our collies are grown and how they will behave in the car, but so far only positive experience with them. We trained them since the very first day and they are the perfect car riders. Please see the two pictures I attached, as they were travelling with us 6.5 hours one way from NC to the Smokies in TN.

 

Border Collie in an apartment

We had a border collie before, but we had the luxury of living in a house where we kept her in the garden. This time renting an apartment we thought about a lot before making a commitment. Those who are in the same shoes before buying, please consider the following:

1) you will need to be patient to crate train them and teach them to signal when they need a potty break

2) once they learnt how to signal you will wake up every 60 minutes when they are puppies to take them down..up to about 3-4 months, then in every 2-3 hours. around 5 months you can start to sleep (think about how you will handle this if you need to go to work during the day)

3) you will be required to spend minimum 3-4 hours daily with exercise...frequent walks, playing in house with their toys...etc. This will help to keep them happy & busy and avoid developing bad habits like furniture chewing.

4) they will demand to be part of your life in every aspect. We actually learnt to go to the bathroom leaving the door slightly open, as they like to check on us and they hate closed doors. They tend to come, look around and when they see us sitting on the toilet, they leave...

I attached a picture with our little girl sleeping while I tried to use my laptop

 

Nail grinding

Since they are indoors you will need to take care of their nails. Our male BC now even falls asleep after a minute or so when we start to grind his nail. See picture attached!

[waffles]

2)Every 60 minutes throughout the night!? Yikes. Our 8wk old puppy slept through the night the first night, and every night since in her crate. I think this defeats the purpose of the crate. When they're really young, yes, many will need to get up once or twice in the night. Most people would never make it to work in the morning on a schedule of going outside every 60 minutes in the night or even every 2 hours.

 

3) I also disagree with this wholeheartedly! 3-4 hours every single day is not needed...well, unless you make it needed. Young pups especially should not be exercised this much. If you do this every day then the dog will come to expect and need that much exercise in order to settle. Neither of my dogs get this much on an every day basis and neither chews furniture. Sure, there are many days that are action packed with lots of outdoor time and training but many days are not as well. The dogs are expected to behave and settle in the house regardless. Such is life, not every day is go go go all the time for me either.

 

I don't mean to be critical of what you wrote, if that works for your lifestyle then that is great! It sounds like your pups have a wonderful life. But border collies in general do not require you to quit your job and devote half your day to entertaining them. I don't want anyone reading this who is new to the breed to be expecting to run their dogs 3-4 hours a day.

[GentleLake]

^^ What she says!

 

I think you're making things much more complicated than they need to be.

 

And please be sure to separate your pups regularly for playtime, training, walks, etc. so they don't become more bonded to each other than they are to the humans in the house.

[Liz P]

I was most scared by the idea of two same aged pups in an apartment. It's extremely difficult to raise two pups at the same time and do it well. I suppose it's easier if you are talking pet dog standards, but still. I rarely see it go ok with pets. You have to make sure they spend most of their time apart from one another. Not so easy with limited space.

[Cass C]

I again agree with what was said above my dogs typically get 1 hour of my undivided attention either in training and/or exercise. Some days less then that even when I was living in an apartment. Did I buy a house for the dogs to have more room, yes, but it wasn't super urgent that I do so even with a lack luster exercise routine.

 

I also agree every 60 minutes for a potty break is completely unnecessary at night. My dogs at 8 weeks were only getting one potty break/night and none by the time they were around 3-4 months (and yes it was an 8 hour night sometime longer on weekends) unless they obviously had an upset stomach and needed to go out more frequently.

[chene]

What the others have said.

I don't mean for you to feel like we're ganging up on you, but when you post something with the intent of new BC people coming here and reading it for advice, you have to expect that we will want to make sure the advice is solid. A very large part of these boards are lurkers who may read this and take it as law. So I'm adding this:

 

Plenty of dogs will jump out of the car if it's open like that (or windows are fully down) and something exciting is there. Hell, they tell you not to even leave your dog on a balcony because border collies (among others) have jumped off of balconies before to get what they want. It's just as serious if it happens on the road. Again, I'm sure it works with your dogs, but I'm very nervous about telling people reading this that it's a good idea. As a puppy Aed once jumped out of the window for a squirrel (at a gas station thankfully) and would have other times if we'd let him. Training a border collie not to be motion reactive to anything they might see is HARD, and I wouldn't potentially bet my dog's life on me being successful.

On the more trivial side of things, I have never needed to grind or even trim Aed's claws, with the exception of the dew claws occasionally. Walking on the sidewalk does it very nicely for me. Depending on the dog's lifestyle you may need to grind their nails, but it's by no means a certainty. Not really a big deal though.

I think the take away from this is that just because something is true for your situation doesn't mean it will be true for everybody else. And telling them it will be ranges from inconvenient to downright dangerous.

[Guest Jule]

I also agree with all that has been said above. While I am loathed to criticise how you choose to do things I would not like to think that prospective dog owners were put off by the workload you have created for yourself.

I have always crated my dogs at night and only for the first few weeks will I get up "once" during the night to toilet them and I concede that "weeks" may not even have been necessary, it's just what I feel comfortable with. To me, you have actually trained your dogs to want to go out perhaps way more than they need to.

I also never allow a dog to tell me when it wants to be out of the crate. Even in situations whereby I actually want to take the dog out I will not do so unless the dog is quiet and calm. When the door is opened they still remain inside until I say the release word. It's not about being a control freak, it's about setting boundaries and teaching the dog to trust your judgement. In the life of any dog a situation will surely arise whereby your dogs safety relies on it's trust and obedience towards you.

The issue of exercise is one that often troubles me. There seems to be a misconception that working dogs "must" have great amounts of exercise. Just because a dog "can" do something doesn't mean they should do it. 3-4 hours of physical exercise per day is huge for an adult let alone a pup. I feel you are inadvertently teaching your dogs to want this amount of exercise.

Absolutely, a working dog needs mental stimulation and challenges but again this does not need to be excessive. A well balanced dog knows how to find it's "off switch". This brings me to the subject of 2 pups of the same age. Not saying it can't be done but as others have said, you need to know what you are doing. Pups need to be trained to self calm and enjoy down time. 2 pups together will be feeding off each others energy and perhaps never really finding their calm state, which may just be contributing to you feeling they need so much exercise.

My youngest dog is 5 1/2 months and only now am I starting to walk him with any pace and then it is only 30minutes. Until now he has had only gentle strolls around our 3 acres for 15 minutes twice daily. These strolls have been more about leash training and recall training or just letting him run around and explore at his own pace.

We play mentally challenging games like tracking or scent games or games designed to teach impulse control daily but again just for a 10-15 minute sessions once a day. Likewise with trick training, we do it spontaneously a couple of times a day for just a few minutes each time. A tug or ball game may be thrown in randomly but once again not for long periods. Apart from one item of footwear I have not had any destructive behaviour at all. He is not a docile boy, he is from working parents and could be as full on as the next BC if I encouraged or allowed it.

I don't live in an apartment but my dogs are nevertheless indoor dogs who are only outside for their walks really so it's not a whole lot different.

DEMAND, REALLY !!! Personally I do not allow dogs to get away with "demanding" anything and strongly believe that when you allow dogs to be demanding, particularly intelligent working breeds, you are putting the dog at a greatly increased risk of developing some really bad behaviours when their demands are not met.

As I work from home I have always been mindful of how easily my dogs could develop separation issues so have always put emphasis on teaching them that they do not need to have their eyes on me at all times. Personally I don't care if they follow me to the bathroom etc but for" their sake" I always teach them that they are OK alone i.e.: shut the door when in the toilet or shower, go into rooms to attend to things and shut them out. They need to learn how to be independent.

In respect to car travel, well in Australia it is Law that dogs must be restrained in cars. Most use a harness with a seat belt attachment. Whether it is Law or not it is simply common sense to "ensure" your dog cannot become a projectile or be tempted to go after something through a window or open top.

Not saying my way is the only way or the best way and it's great that you are happy with how things are in your own home. I am however prepared to say that what you have prescribed in your post for the benefit of others is in my opinion wrong on so many levels.

I am bewildered that you could not find sufficient information prior to getting your dogs. Personally I have yet to find a subject pertaining to dogs for which a simple google search didn't yield an abundance of information. I am an older person who has always had working dogs (previously WL GSD's). I am not without experience and knowledge however I wouldn't dream of posting on a forum such as this in such a "this is how it is and this is how it's done" manner. You don't have to look far on this forum to realise that you are in the company of many, many very experienced and knowledgable people from whom I am open to learning new and better ways as well as sharing my own experiences (as opposed to suggesting that my own experiences are "the way it is done".

[chene]

In respect to car travel, well in Australia it is Law that dogs must be restrained in cars. Most use a harness with a seat belt attachment. Whether it is Law or not it is simply common sense to "ensure" your dog cannot become a projectile or be tempted to go after something through a window or open top..

 

For Aed we now use something similar to this:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Dog-Car-Harness-Safety-Seat/

Very easy, doesn't restrict their movement much, but will stop them from going flying if there's an accident. At least, so I've heard. Never having been in an accident with Aed, I couldn't say. There was an interesting thread a while back on here about the safety of crates in the car and ultimately I decided to stick with the harness approach, but I haven't seen much out there about the safety of it apart from anecdotes of people I know. But I digress...

[gcv-border]

 

I decided to stick with the harness approach, but I haven't seen much out there about the safety of it apart from anecdotes of people I know.

 

Search on 'crash tested dog harness' I found this review:

 

http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/harnesses/2013-harness-crash-test-videos/

 

Here is a link to the top performer:

 

http://sleepypod.com/clickit

[Guest Jule]

Search on 'crash tested dog harness' I found this review:

 

http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/harnesses/2013-harness-crash-test-videos/

 

Here is a link to the top performer:

 

http://sleepypod.com/clickit

Excellent article, thanks for that GVC-Border. We also use a dog hammock. It's a large heavy duty fabric that attaches to back seat headrests and then to back of front seat headrests. It prevents dogs from being able to slip off the seat into the footwell.

[chene]

Search on 'crash tested dog harness' I found this review:

 

http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/harnesses/2013-harness-crash-test-videos/

 

Here is a link to the top performer:

 

http://sleepypod.com/clickit

 

Thank you, that's good information. When I actually have the money to buy something like that I'll keep the article in mind. For now, I'm limited to whatever I can make that ends up being safest, which sucks, but that's the reality sometimes.

[Gloria Atwater]

Hello Everyone,

 

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. Prior to committing to buy our border collies there were a few questions I had and I found very little information or people with practical experience sharing it online.

 

I will address the following:

 

1) car travelling

2) apartment living with a border collie

3) nail grinding for collies kept in an apartment

 

Car travelling

My wife has a small coupe (Audi TT) and I have a convertible, both with full leather interior.

We had some concerns about how the travelling will look like once our collies are grown and how they will behave in the car, but so far only positive experience with them. We trained them since the very first day and they are the perfect car riders. Please see the two pictures I attached, as they were travelling with us 6.5 hours one way from NC to the Smokies in TN.

 

Border Collie in an apartment

We had a border collie before, but we had the luxury of living in a house where we kept her in the garden. This time renting an apartment we thought about a lot before making a commitment. Those who are in the same shoes before buying, please consider the following:

1) you will need to be patient to crate train them and teach them to signal when they need a potty break

2) once they learnt how to signal you will wake up every 60 minutes when they are puppies to take them down..up to about 3-4 months, then in every 2-3 hours. around 5 months you can start to sleep (think about how you will handle this if you need to go to work during the day)

3) you will be required to spend minimum 3-4 hours daily with exercise...frequent walks, playing in house with their toys...etc. This will help to keep them happy & busy and avoid developing bad habits like furniture chewing.

4) they will demand to be part of your life in every aspect. We actually learnt to go to the bathroom leaving the door slightly open, as they like to check on us and they hate closed doors. They tend to come, look around and when they see us sitting on the toilet, they leave...

I attached a picture with our little girl sleeping while I tried to use my laptop

 

Nail grinding

Since they are indoors you will need to take care of their nails. Our male BC now even falls asleep after a minute or so when we start to grind his nail. See picture attached!

 

 

Goodness, you've certainly broken this down to a science. And your dogs look absolutely beautiful! Not much to add to what others have said, other than this.

 

Your automobile situation terrifies me. At the very least, make sure you have a purpose-made set of harnesses to belt them in. Not just walking harness, but safety harness. I can't tell you how many times I've read of people being in car accidents and the dog is either thrown or jumps from the vehicle. Ordinary walking harnesses are not strong enough.

 

Many of us who travel often or over long distances with more than one dog end up buying a larger vehicle so that dogs can be safely shut into secure crates, with the vehicle mass as added safety. Always plan for the event of something catastrophic on the road.

 

Fortunately, I've never had a pup that required me losing sleep for 5 months, as they have learned to sleep through the night within a couple weeks. But I'm glad you managed it and kept your sanity.

 

I appreciate that you emphasize that border collies are a "full time" dog. So many BCs end up in rescue because their owners thought a smart dog meant an easy dog that they could just put in the back yard for a pet.

 

However, I think I would be wary of anyone letting a dog demand too much of our time. As working dogs, border collies must have an "off" switch or they'd soon wear themselves out. If a BC does not work, I feel it's still important for them to learn the ability to just a hang out and do their own thing. If I'm in the kitchen or doing something on the computer, they can just go entertain themselves quietly, out from under foot, until I'm ready to engage them. After all, one would not want to inadvertently train in separation anxiety.

 

Also, the needing 3 to 4 hours of exercise a day can be a bit of a fallacy. It's not their bodies that need the workout, it's their minds.

 

Your dogs look like lovely, well-kept little beings. Thanks for sharing them with us.

 

~ Gloria

 

 

 

[Gloria Atwater]

Search on 'crash tested dog harness' I found this review:

 

http://www.centerforpetsafety.org/test-results/harnesses/2013-harness-crash-test-videos/

 

Here is a link to the top performer:

 

http://sleepypod.com/clickit

 

 

I may have to see about one of these ... Two of my dogs have crates tired down in the camper shell of my truck, but there's no room for a third crate so the third dog gets seat belted up front. I have a Kurgo harness, but this one looks better. Thanks!

 

~ Gloria

[alligande]

I have posted this before, but I use this harness https://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=3577&ParentCat=202 it is also crash tested. I chose it because it does give the dog more freedom than the sleepypod one, I have a wriggly dog and could not envision him confined for a long journey in that one. It is extremely well made, but a bit of PIA to put on as it does not have clasps but you have to thread the straps through a self locking piece. I am sure this is due to failure rates on usual clips but it means I don't use it on short trips. It is definitely a one purpose harness far to bulky to use for walks, we do leave it on during road trips for convienance. We have now driven Dover to Barcelona 5 times and he has comfortably worn it each trip.

 

As others have said border collies don't need huge amounts of exercise, none of mine have ever had 2-3 hours a day on a regular basis, and they have all been good house pets.

[drivesleeprepeat]

This sounds like my life. I have two border collies in an apartment and we're styling in a two door BMW coupe. Just throw down the back seats, take an old comforter and cover the seats and floor, throw dog in soft travel crate. Bam.

[drivesleeprepeat]

Also, are you wearing an M shirt in that vert pic!? LOL

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I've had them jump out of an open car window so I don't open them all the way. That said: Many western Montana ranchers' work truck is a steel bed dually covered with fencing/tools/dirt bike/two or three sheepsogs with which they roar down the highway at 65 or 70. When I asked I was told: "When they're young I go bouncing through the brush and if they jump off, it hurts so they don't do that any more."

 

Dunno . . .

 

Donald McCaig

[GentleLake]

Just because some people do foolish things doesn't make them less foolish.

[chene]

When I asked I was told: "When they're young I go bouncing through the brush and if they jump off, it hurts so they don't do that any more."

 

Yes, well, that's what they say about those invisible electric fences too, and those tend to be altogether useless as soon as the dog sees a particularly tasty squirrel...

[Guest Jule]

Just because some people do foolish things doesn't make them less foolish.

Well said !!! Just because people get away with foolishness through "good luck" rather than "good management" doesn't make it any less foolish.

[GentleLake]

Here's an article that was just posted today about crash tests for some of the restraints mentioned here: http://www.today.com/pets/pet-owner-alert-most-restraints-pets-cars-fail-crash-tests-t59271

 

From the article:

 

The products that Center for Pet Safety found to be top performers are:

• Sleepypod Clickit Utility
• Gunner Kennel G1 Intermediate with Strength Rated Anchor Straps
• Sleepypod Mobile Pet Bed with PPRS Handilock.
• PetEgo Jet Set Forma Frame Carrier with ISOFIX-Latch Connection

[zeroka974]

ohh wow, I'm impressed by the number of comments.

 

Thanks for sharing the safety concern around the harness. What you don't see well on the picture is that the male hasa different harness we are using. It is BMW's own dog safety harness, which is made of the same material as the seatbelt itself with it's own buckle. Take a look at the link, it has some pictures which will give you an idea:

 

https://www.ecstuning.com/ES196479/?gclid=COXC5Ymrl8oCFQooaQodRMYFfw

 

 

This German engineered one I trust over everything. The little girl's harness which is a stock one from petco is certainly a good one to point out which I didn't think of....so that I will consider replacing with either the above recommended sleepypod or get another BMW harness for her too.

 

With regards to my post, I merely shared our own experience of raising two puppies at the same time and everyone's experience may be different. I can certainly say that the little girl was the perfect one for potty training/ housebreaking, she was almost no problem from day 2, while the male collie was and still is the bottle neck. He was a much tougher one to train in many aspects...a bit stubborn similar to me

[zeroka974]

Also, are you wearing an M shirt in that vert pic!? LOL

 

finally, someone else not worried putting the puppies to a BMW

It's a nike golf shirt, but I just nicknamed it my "Kimi Räikkönen" one due to its pattern. I had it on when taking delivery of my car, so ever since I put it on on my best days with my car

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimi_R%C3%A4ikk%C3%B6nen

 

The car is a Dinan signature 1 stage 3 tuned one though, so it pushes out just as much HP as an M4. I simply wanted the all wheel drive for stability, so went with the above combination

[gcv-border]

ohh wow, I'm impressed by the number of comments.

 

Thanks for sharing the safety concern around the harness. What you don't see well on the picture is that the male hasa different harness we are using. It is BMW's own dog safety harness, which is made of the same material as the seatbelt itself with it's own buckle. Take a look at the link, it has some pictures which will give you an idea:

 

https://www.ecstuning.com/ES196479/?gclid=COXC5Ymrl8oCFQooaQodRMYFfw

 

 

This German engineered one I trust over everything. The little girl's harness which is a stock one from petco is certainly a good one to point out which I didn't think of....so that I will consider replacing with either the above recommended sleepypod or get another BMW harness for her too.

I agree with you that (usually) German engineering can be superior, but .... I would still like to see crash test results for the harness. (It's the scientist in me.) I would also like to see a photo of the dog wearing the BMW harness to see how it is positioned around the dog's body. I don't know how the dog harness was designed (i.e.' who' designed it - auto engineers or vet orthopedic specialists or a team comprised of both), but if it was just auto engineers, I wouldn't spend my $$ unless I had more information.

 

Too bad the harness won't fit my husband's car (528xi), but I guess it is a moot point since he forbids dogs in his vehicle.

[drivesleeprepeat]

The car is a Dinan signature 1 stage 3 tuned one though, so it pushes out just as much HP as an M4. I simply wanted the all wheel drive for stability, so went with the above combination

 

How rad! I'm jealous. We've talked about turning in my E46 330Ci for an E46 M3 (in Laguna Seca blue, of course), but then I realized it'll only be a little faster and not any more pup friendly... haha!