brookitar Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 My one and a half year old Effie got into a nasty habit of herding certain children after she turned a year. As a puppy she was always very fearful of children and would always run away or act very submissive. The first time she started herding we were out in the dog park with one of our friends and her son. We were very excited at first because this was the first child she seemed to take a liking to and wouldn't act fearful. The child would run around the park and climb on equipment when his mother told him to stop. Effie began to run with him playfully...then he climbed on equipment she tried to bite him by the pants and pull. She ended up nipping his rear end and left a nasty half-dollar sized bruise immediately. I had never felt so guilty before in my life and Effie was scolded severely. Luckily my friend was forgiving and said its a lesson to her child for not listening but I took this very seriously. Effie has not been allowed around children ever since the incident. Today was a complete nightmare. Our local dog park is perfectly built directly next to a park for children...wonder what genius came up with that idea. Ever since we have cut Effie off from having contact with children she feels the need to rush and dive at the fence while barking (this is the same behavior with squirrels and some other dogs). We have scolded her when she does this but the behavior always comes back some days worse than others. Most dogs in the park bark at people walking past the fence so she relearns the behavior again and it doesn't help when children from the park taunt the dogs either. Effie for once was very focused on squirrels she hadn't charged the fence the whole hour we were out then all of a sudden it kicked in. One of the children ran past the fence and she ran with a dive. I heard a little scream and she fell on her butt on a bed of rocks...Effie was somehow on the other side of the fence!!! Luckily the child was okay Effie ran into her knocking her down. I apologized and made sure she was okay but this situation could have been so much worse...she could have bit her, the child could have broken a bone or needed stitches. It turns out the fence on that side of the dog park is not grounded like the other side is....and there were two opening on the fence where a dog could get out. The opening she took was about 3 feet wide and I could fit my whole body through if I wanted to. As we were inspecting we noticed someone must have known about this but instead of fixing it the right way they use small steel stakes to push that part of the fence into the ground outside and added extra dirt in the dog park to give the illusion it was grounded. My question is in the scenario something worse happened would the apartment complex be liable or would I as the owner? I really don't know what to do with Effie anymore people have recommended a shock collar, prong collar, animal psychologists, or one on one training. What will help this situation the most? I love my dog I would never want to be put in the situation of having to put her down because she hurt someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drivesleeprepeat Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 To me, it doesn't really sound like anything that a normal, young BC wouldn't have done. The dog park closest to me ALWAYS has people that bring their screaming, running children into it and I will never put my dogs in there then. Why? 99% chance their motion sensitive ninniness will have them chasing down the kid and probably nipping them. That's the main reason why I work on engagement activities outside of the park and never go in. It stinks that this happened, but is your dog regularly around children otherwise? If she isn't, personally I wouldn't worry too much. But if it's important to you, I would maybe read up on Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) and playing Look At That (LAT). I know there's a Facebook group, but I'll try to find the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookitar Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I wasn't sure if this was a typical border collie behavior or not with children. My other border loves children and never herds people...I was luckily able to break this habit because he showed the tendencies as a puppy. Effie's behavior started once she became an adult I guess that's why its not as easy to train it out of her. Yeah we no longer go to parks when there are kids in them...it really does stink. :/ Luckily a lot of the dog park/bars around here do not allow children so we have been going there very often. She does not have regular contact with children. My younger cousins are the only ones she's seen once a year but I have educated them not to run around, make fast movements, loud noises, or hug her it seems to work so far but she follows them everywhere it makes me so nervous. It seems to be certain apartment children who run and scream who set her off. I'm also seeing fence guarding with her its extended to adults as well. Thank you so much I will read up! I'm willing to try anything at this point at least for the fence aggression I can't have her break free of a fence again. Do you know if herding classes help with the prey drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 A. Don't let her follow your child cousins anymore. She needs to be on a leash and supervised or kenneled while they are visiting. Teach her a solid down stay, so that she doesn't follow them or anyone. B. Don't allow the fence rushing - all it does is stimulate her over and over and make you nervous. Figure out another place to take her, (it seems like you already have). No fence rushing anywhere for any reason. Do a search for 'fence fighting' and you'll find some ideas. C. Practice recall. Practice, practice, and then practice some more. Especially in situations where she is excited. You want a dog who will race back to you, no matter what. This takes time and persistence. D. You could call her behavior 'prey drive'. It's also very bad manners. Stock work is hard for both human and dog, and can be very rewarding. If you're not going to keep it up and make a regular thing of training on sheep, I wouldn't recommend investing time or money in it. Find a good trainer and spend your dollars that way. Ruth and Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brookitar Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I don't allow her to be unsupervised with them...they are not little children either ages 11, 12 and 18. She will never be allowed without a leash around smaller children we typically crate her if they are below 10 we don't want to take chances. The herding issues are happening with children who are younger than 8 I think its the short height and the way they play that triggers her bad manners. We have been practicing the sit stays with her and she does well at the park now with that recall until there is a trigger. Okay thank you I will research the fence fighting. Her recall is great but its in situations when she is excited she turns into a completely different dog. Like you said I will have to practice more especially in situations or around triggers that make her act this way. I have a friend who sent her girl to sort of a doggy boot camp for a few weeks. Her resource guarding was so bad she had been through 3 previous owners. I may see if this is an option for Effie if my fiance and I can't fix these issues with regular training. Its expensive but seeing her dog's end result makes me hopeful Effie can be changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 She's waaaay over stimulated. The dog park is probably too much for her. Self control, self control, self control. Check out the Control Unleashed book for some ideas. Google "doggy Zen" and "it's yer choice" for more ideas. Keep her in environments that are not as stimulating. Teach her to relax, practice it everywhere. You don't need the excitement of, well, exciting places unless she can handle it and relax when asked. If she can't relax, she can't think properly and you tend to get the reactive behaviors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 That really doesn't sound like aggression at all to me. Undesirable and potentially dangerous? Definitely. But if it's not aggression, you can't treat it like aggression. Like Maralynn said, she's waaaay overstimulated. I can't honestly say I'd trust my 1.5 year old dog not to run and nip a bunch of screaming kids running past in a park. Work hard on some Control Unleashed games, and do everything you can not to let her reach that point of excitement anymore. She can't possibly learn to be appropriate around kids when everything in her being says CHASE THE SMALL RUNNING THINGS. I will say that you could very easily turn reactivity into aggression if you put him in the wrong hands. I'm not a completely +R trainer, but I wouldn't approach this with anything but positive methods. You said she was wary of kids before, the last thing you want is to give her a reason to be fear aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Palm slap to my forehead - Control Unleashed is an excellent resource. Available on Amazon. And as Mara and Kingfisher stated, teaching her to relax in stimulating situations is a great place to start. And do be very, very careful about who you train with. Can you get a greater distance from potential triggers - say, walking around the parking lot a bit and practicing the sit before you actually get into the park? Good work so far, and great that you're seeing the potential for a problem and working on it now, rather than ignoring it. Ruth and Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I never leave my dogs outside when little kids are around. They haven't been around children at all and all that running and noise is just too much. I just bring them inside when the neighbor's grandkids are visiting. Or I am standing right there with them. Too much going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Dear Doggers, I've had dogs I turned loose in a kindergarden. I never, never, never let 10 year old Fly loose around small children. I don't think that anything short of a shock collar would train her to shun them and I'm not sure even that draconian measure would work. There aren't many absolutes in dog training but this is one: You absolutely must not allow your dog to bite/nip a child. You cannot afford what it might cost the child/the dog/your financial future. Please, listen to what your dog is telling you. It's important! Don't compare your dog to my kindergarden dogs or other dogs that 'let kids crawl over them". Don't be proud/foolishish. I usually arrive at the motel early to get my pick of room and avoid the crush when all the weary families come off the road from 6-8pm. Once, I failed to arrive early and had to walk through a lobby full of kids and parents with Fly on lead to get to our room. In a loud voice I said, "Excuse me. Please step back to let us pass. This dog is not reliable." Did I feel like a jerk. Yep. Any kid get bit? Nope. Would I do it again? You bet. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would be wary of sending any dog to a "dog boot camp" unless I was able to see their training methods on more than one occasion to make sure they are compatible what *I* believe is appropriate. See the comments regarding turning her behavior into fear aggression. As others have said, your dog is overstimulated. She doesn't need any punitive measures for that; she needs to learn self control. Kids are noisy and erratic--the very things that will trigger the behaviors you have witnessed. Keeping her under control (on leash) around children and avoiding situations where children will be running/screaming are imperative right now.In the meantime, you can follow the advice offered above to help her stay in control of herself in exciting situations. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I can't honestly say I'd trust my 1.5 year old dog not to run and nip a bunch of screaming kids running past in a park. This! My dog is about the same age, loves kids, has excellent bite inhibition, has never even hinted at nipping kids. But in that type of situation he'd be over excited and could easily knock kids over. The only young kids I turn him loose to play with are my two nieces who he grew up around as both kids and dog understand the "rules" of playing with each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I agree with the others, doesn't sound like agression, just too much excitement, instinctive reaction to sound and movement kicking in and lack of self control. Which of course doesn't mean it's all right for her to behave like that, but helps to put her behaviour into perspective and understand she's not an hopelessly agressive dog. If it was me I would do the opposite of never allowing interaction with kids, meaning I would promote lots of supervised interaction where I would gradually teach what behaviours I want near and with kids. By interaction I don't even mean she and kids are close enough to be able to touch each other, not now anyway, but that the presence of kids is used to teach an on leash dog to relax, control his impulses and pay attention to me instead of the environment. Tess is 2.5 yo and likes people, but her interactions with children are very closely supervised (and when she was younger where restricted to a few kids I knew could follow my instructions to the t). She has great self control, great bite inibbition. And yet, every chance to play is embraced, and her play style is rough and tumble. And she does react to sound and movement. Not in a "I want to kill that" way, but still, not good for kids. She also doesn't much like being pet by strangers, so what I usually do with kids is tell them that they can't pet her but can play frisbee with her if they want. Kids love it, she loves everybody that plays with her, and the focus is on the object and not on the child, which for her works great. Tess's interest is on the game, so she never tries to take a frisbee off a hand or jump on a kid, she is waiting for the game to resume, for the object to be thrown. A kid that screams and runs around frantically waving body parts has zero chances of interacting with my dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 ^^ This. Desensitization to and well controlled, under threshold socialization with children is the way I'd go as well. And I'll echo the cautions on sending a dog away to be trained. Even if you visit the facility, you can't ever really know what's going on when there are no visitors around. And it's not unusual for a dog who responds well with the trainer to revert to previous unwanted behaviors when back at home with their own people because those people don't have the same relationships and interactions with the dog that the trainer does. Better, IMO, to work with a good trainer so that you can learn how to work with this yourself. I'd suggest both some group classes (a class for reactive dogs would be ideal if you can find one offered by a good trainer) and maybe some one-on-one work with the trainer near (not in, at least not at first) the park. I also agree that punitive based methods are risky in situations like this. There's too much of a chance of turning over stimulation into fear, which could then become fear aggression. Not at all what you want to do. Your dog doesn't have to ever really like kids, just learn how to control herself around them. Best wishes navigating this difficult terrain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I would never send a dog away without knowing the people really well. Nope. Wouldn't do it even then. Too scary. Too many abusive trainers out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Your dog is engaging in less than desirable behaviors at the dog park. I would stop going. Barking at a fence when people walk by is unacceptable in a dog park scenario. Barrier frustration leads to what happened with your dog. As others have said, so called "board and trains" or "boot camps" are a bad idea. One never knows what goes on behind the barn so to speak...now there is a trend for those places to openly use shock collars and prongs which are the wrong "tools" for this issue. From a very young age, I've brought my dogs to play grounds and ball games and trained on the periphery (always on leash) because I've wanted to desensitize to kids. Since your dog has already gone to the bad place, I would recommend working with a trainer to help desensitize to kids. And no dog park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crawford Dogs Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons has very well thought out explanations and training information. I found it very useful in rehabbing my one-time foster Rose (fear aggressive, long history of repeatedly biting before coming to me). Like everyone else said, keep your dog away from children and those situations until you have seen a trainer AND have a training plan in place. I'd highly recommend using an all-positive trainer who is both properly trained and experienced. Good luck! Bethany, Rose, and Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I think it is key to keep in mind Movement for a herding dog is exciting. It is the movement that kicks in the instinct for many dogs. Yes she needs to be taught self control and to listen in exciting situations just start small and work up. Does she play with toys? Can you throw a toy and ask her to stay with you until you release her? Can you throw the ball release her while it is moving then stop her or call her back while it is still moving? That is where I would start. Then up things slow. Can you call her off - with one call - when she is playing with other dogs? If you need to go back to a long line so she hears and understands and responds correctly then do that. Once she is looking to you to ask if she can run and play and checking back in with you and responsive then I would introduce children again. She is not going to learn to be around them by keeping her away. Start with older kids walking and her on a leash. Then older kids jogging then two kids with her on a long line. Then kids talking excitedly, them kids screaming.... then a bigger group then smaller kids... IF she is not responding inside with a ball she is not going to outside with a rabbit or a kid on a bike or a car, just gradually introduce things and maintain a calm quiet attitude from you and from her. She is not going to be calm unless you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I don't allow her to be unsupervised with them...they are not little children either ages 11, 12 and 18. She will never be allowed without a leash around smaller children we typically crate her if they are below 10 we don't want to take chances. The herding issues are happening with children who are younger than 8 I think its the short height and the way they play that triggers her bad manners. We have been practicing the sit stays with her and she does well at the park now with that recall until there is a trigger. Okay thank you I will research the fence fighting. Her recall is great but its in situations when she is excited she turns into a completely different dog. Like you said I will have to practice more especially in situations or around triggers that make her act this way. I have a friend who sent her girl to sort of a doggy boot camp for a few weeks. Her resource guarding was so bad she had been through 3 previous owners. I may see if this is an option for Effie if my fiance and I can't fix these issues with regular training. Its expensive but seeing her dog's end result makes me hopeful Effie can be changed. You've got some great ideas and reading suggestions, so I'll just echo it. She isn't aggressive, she's massively over-stimulated. Remember, border collies are genetically programmed to respond to movement and motion. It's in their DNA. Not one of my border collies would do well in a busy, boisterous, rambunctious situation. It's simply too much for them to cope with. Their brains are meant to handle moving sheep and use their own sort of logic to control them. Under training, that logic takes shape and direction. But when they're thrown in with romping, running, shouting humans ... there's no way to control it and their poor brains just kind of go boom. And in fact, it's not at all uncommon for border collies to cope poorly with dog parks in general. They are often just too busy and filled with too many dogs who don't "speak border collie." Dog parks can teach BCs to start "herding" and chasing and staring at other dogs, which rarely ends well and can result in dog fights. Plus very pushy, in-your-face dogs like boxers and labs can totally freak a BC out, while little yappy dogs can trigger prey drive. I do NOT recommend any kind of boot camp. This is not the same as resource guarding. This is simply a dog in over her head. She cannot cope with all the stimulation around her. So, you have some good options here for training her, some good book recommendations. Please, for the sake of your dog, look into them. And in the meantime, please avoid the dog park. If there are other places you can take her for walks and hikes, nice parks or river walks or woodlands that are NOT crowded with people or dogs, then look into those for her. Remember, a dog does not have to socialize with the world. They don't have to be friends with everybody. And border collies were never bred to be that way. They are working dogs who developed in much quieter environs that did not include shouting people, yapping strange dogs or screaming kids. A border collie is not like a golden retriever and never will be. Not one of my dogs over the years would do well in the circumstances you describe. Help her find relief from the chaos. Don't make her go into situations that are too much for her brain. Don't ask her to handle situations that she's not prepared to cope with. She doesn't need boot camp, she just needs the training and tools to navigate a human world. You can teach her this. Best of luck! ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I don't know if this is workable for you or not - I take Gibbs to a dog park every morning. I'm usually there by 7 a.m. With very few exceptions, I simply leave if another dog comes in. There are a couple folks who bring dogs who gladly ignore Gibbs while they sniff and look for gophers, or chase a ball of their own. I stick around if it's just them. Everybody else, particularly bouncy goldens and labs, I leave. Every once in a while, we don't stay very long at all. Oh, well. I personally like being outside early in the morning, so it works for me. Ruth and Gibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody & Duchess Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 What an intelligent thread, thank you all for taking the time. I really liked how many identified the BC's individual unique personalities and shaping the response to each dog's needs, strengths and limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I won't repeat what a lot of others have said, but I agree that for THIS dog, the dog park stimulation is too much. My old boy could play with a single dog, sometimes, on a good day. But once it was a group of three, he turned into the "dog police," trying to stop the others from enjoying what looked (to him) like greatly excessive roughhousing. Ditto with any situation - one might be fine, two might be a bit fear-inducing, three might tip him over the edge. You can have a rich, rewarding life with a dog who is never let loose with small children, never goes to the dog park, is not unsupervised when meeting others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Not every dog has to like or be all right around screaming running children. I don't like screaming running children either. Honestly, I don't have a lot to contribute beyond agreeing with what everyone else said. But my childhood 'boogeyman' was a border collie. I was terrified of it for more than a decade, and still am a lot more wary around border collies than other dogs. We all went out for drinks when the dog finally died, words cannot express how much I was afraid of that dog. Two things from that- one is do not allow your dog to badly frighten a child, if you can help it, and supervise them with kids. The kind of training others here have recommended is important. I know you wouldn't, but because my experience before was "Well the dog probably didn't bite you while I was in the other room because I didn't see it happen, that blood must be from a playful scratch, you're just irrationally afraid." I'm overcautious about it. And the second is that while this does sound potentially dangerous, make no mistake about that, it also isn't setting off my panic buttons, and I have a hair trigger for this. It sounds manageable with training and cautious management. If even panicky 'ol' me is saying that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5Bordercollies Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Just want to quickly thank my lucky stars I've found this thread. Of my five one is pretty reliable with kids, especially older ones, one avoids strangers pretty much at all costs - unless they have food - and the other three... let's just say they are not allowed anywhere near children and even sometimes will be caged when visitors arrive. At this moment it's not a huge issue, I don't have kids and I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. BUT and here's the big big problem I'm moving to the big bad city next year. And I've been seeing problems everywhere I look, but i"m not wiling to give up the loves of my life just because circumstances no longer allow us to live on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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