Jump to content
BC Boards

Does stock work really "settle" a dog?


Recommended Posts

Hi all,

 

Haven't been on here in a long time. Have been working with my younger dog, who is from very nice working lines. She turned out to be a very sweet, nice dog, although still kind of spazzy. I've trained my way around it: she has very solid operant behaviors in the agility ring, ringside (getting there), off lead. But she's never well, mentally matured or become more serious, the way many herding bred dogs seem to be (that's why I got a second after all, as I loved this quality in the first). She is intact. It's been really frustrating, and I've continued to entertain the thought of rehoming her, since this was always what I felt prevented us from forming any meaningful relationship. Several folks (some of whom I consider very knowledgeable, in case they are lurking :P ) have suggested trying her on stock, to see if that helps build a better relationship with her and maybe help her settle in mentally. Does this actually seem to work, in people's experiences? Even if the dog is 3?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't say if it's the age or the stockwork, but I started Micah seriously last March at age 3 years and 4 days, and he has settled quite a bit. He is still 100% ready to go at any time, but when we are just sitting around in the house, he isn't the one looking for something to do or jumping up at every noise. He has even started to down automatically when he realizes he is pushing too hard when we're working and he is learning to pace himself too, which I never though would happen. I was seeing signs that he would settle somewhat before we started really training, so like I said, I don't know if it is the work or the age, probably a bit of both.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many border collies don't start maturing until age 3 (or later!). How old were her parents when they mentally matured? If she's just a naturally "spazzy" dog (personality trait? not sure what you mean here) it may just be who she is. My older gal Rose was a spaz and is still a spaz at 8 1/2 yrs old. My youngster Loki was a very driven youngster who thought 90 mph was the correct speed. At 5 yrs of age he'd still prefer to work stock at 90 mph but steady's up when asked. He's a novice learning with me (a novice). I will tell you though that since he got his own ducks this spring and the regular lessons those brought he has learned more self control, even more focus (scary!), and more confidence. His personality remains the same, he's just more intensely himself.

So, if it's just a lack of focus or maturity working stock may help improve those. But if it's simply the personality you may be out of luck.

I'm a novice in stockwork though so perhaps some more experienced people will chime in?

 

Bethany

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a spazzy dog who finally matured at 5-6 y/o. She also decided she wanted to start working sheep at that point. Not in any *real* capacity but she'd put my folks small flock in the barn and hold them while I'd move the electric fence. Hard to say what came first though - maturity or desire to work. She's much more of an independent dog - took her somewhere else to work sheep and, while she did decent, she really wanted to work on *her* terms. She's a rescue so I have no clue as to her background. I don't have the same type of relationship with her as I have with my other 3. But she's nearly seven now and we've figured it out. She actually finally certified for SAR work this past summer and (finally) now works for me really nicely when it's time to work. And I give her lots of "free time" to do her own thing when I'm home on the farm.

 

My young dog was mature from the get go. Ten weeks old and he was all about working with me. Much more what I expect from a Border Collie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

What settles a Border Collie is knowing its place in the world. That place is defined by routine, work, exercise and a lot of dozing. Since stockwork expresses a dog's genetics, that place in the world is more clearly defined but I have seen SAR, obedience and agility Border Collies who were as certain of their lebensweld as my sheepdogs.

 

Some of the Border Collie's "place" depends on whether the dog is working or playing and in agility and obedience it may be doing either. Play appeals to pet owners because it exercises the dog and makes for cute. Play appeals to many trainers because play/tricks is what they're training (hence the hyper-excitement).

 

Our dogs are genetic Calvinists and need meaningful work (whatever that work may be) to be calm.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had had dogs I just 'click with' They were nice enough dogs, some were the very independent type and I felt I was working for them rather than the other way around. One just did not enjoy the same things I did, he wanted to be inside laying on the couch and did not even enjoy hanging out in the yard with me. I rehomed them, I figured if I was not real happy surely they knew that and figured they would be better in a home that suited them. I was very selective where they went and hear from the owners who report things are great.

 

You might contact the breeder and talk about specific behaviors. Even little silly things I find are passed down, they might some insights for you..

 

I have had some bc that come out of the womb serious and their entire life is approached that way. Play is serious, work is serious, chewing on a bone is serious. There are others that are happy go lucky and everything is fun, they never have a bad moment. I believe it is simply different personalities. I have never had a spazzy dog, not sure if that is because I discourage t any mindless behavior or if it because I am a calm, quiet person. I find it interesting dogs take on / reflect the personality of the owner many many times.

I would think about spaying her, hormones can and do affect mood and behavior. If you rehome her I would think you would want that taken care of anyway. I Believe matching the right dog to the right people and home the best life for everyone so I feel good about that when I decide it is the right thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I have never had a spazzy dog, not sure if that is because I discourage t any mindless behavior or if it because I am a calm, quiet person. "

 

I'm the same way and ended up with a spazz. She's settled well enough now but genetically she sure seems to be a Golden Retriever in a Border Collie suit - sweet, a bit nutty, in your face personality. I suppose that she could be a mix as she's a rescue but she looks all Border Collie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started working stock with my fearful dog who has limited ability to do jumping twisting sports due to a chronic injury. My hope is it would give him confidence and reduce his "react first ask questions later" issues.

 

It has really increased his thinking skills, and it has certainly given him a confidence boost. He's also aged from 3 to 5 but my husband commented the other day how much less reactive Argos has become and how hes so much more mellow.

 

Age or stockwork, I dunno.

 

I am, however, hooked on stockwork now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have had some bc that come out of the womb serious and their entire life is approached that way. Play is serious, work is serious, chewing on a bone is serious. There are others that are happy go lucky and everything is fun, they never have a bad moment.

That is Mer to a T. From the age of 7 weeks, everything was done seriously.

 

"There are others that are happy go lucky and everything is fun, they never have a bad moment. "

 

And that is Obs. I don't think spazzy is the right word. She's just always happy. She is never grumpy or snarky. Sometimes she gets scared, but it always passes like a summer rain shower, there and gone. Neither are busy or hyper dogs, although Obs used to be when younger. They don't even like to get up in the AM, they are so lazy. But either would run 100 miles if you asked, or work til they dropped. She is just not particularly serious, even though she is quick to learn, biddable, and can focus with laser intensity on an agility course. She would be many people's dream dog, and I have had people to whom I would give her offer to buy her. But I still feel like that is giving up. I suppose it can't hurt to try sheep at least, and figured I would anyways; it sounds like that, plus/minus time, does actually help some dogs mature.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As Donald noted, often letting them tap into their true genetic potential can help them mature/settle by giving their world meaning. That said, if you're not really interested in stockwork then it's probably not worth pursuing. I do have goofy dogs, though, who are perfectly serious on stock.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

What settles a Border Collie is knowing its place in the world. That place is defined by routine, work, exercise and a lot of dozing. Since stockwork expresses a dog's genetics, that place in the world is more clearly defined but I have seen SAR, obedience and agility Border Collies who were as certain of their lebensweld as my sheepdogs.

 

Some of the Border Collie's "place" depends on whether the dog is working or playing and in agility and obedience it may be doing either. Play appeals to pet owners because it exercises the dog and makes for cute. Play appeals to many trainers because play/tricks is what they're training (hence the hyper-excitement).

 

Our dogs are genetic Calvinists and need meaningful work (whatever that work may be) to be calm.

 

Donald McCaig

 

I have a question about this. I'm in the process of looking for my first border collie, and I keep reading the "border collies need a job to do" theme. And then I also read that the job doesn't have to be herding or high-level agility--frisbee and jobs around the house and trick training can keep a dog happy and mentally stimulated, and border collies can be great companions as well as great working dogs. But, as Donald says, it seems to me that these tasks, at least in my home, are not really "work", as in, I don't primarily want a dog to have someone to throw a frisbee to. The true purpose of getting a dog is to have a companion for myself and my fiancé.

 

We are happy to spend the time training and playing hide and seek games, etc. I'd be interested in trying agility or nose-work, and maybe even herding classes. But for us, these things are fundamentally "play", in that these aren't functions we need our dog to excel at, and if either us or the dog was unhappy doing them we'd pick something else. Now, maybe this is a silly question to ask, but will our dog realize this? Can we find a border collie willing to accept "companion" as his primary employment? Or should we make the decision to take trick training and the like super-seriously? Will our dog know if we're just pretending?

 

To be clear, we aren't looking for a dog who's content lying on the couch alone all day. Our dog will accompany us throughout our work days, exercise with us, and go just about everywhere we can manage to take her. Much of her training will be very important to us, since we want a well-behaved dog we can trust in many environments. And you never know--maybe after a few classes it will turn out that I'm really into agility or obedience or some other dog sport.

 

Sorry if none of this makes sense--I'm just wondering whether anyone here has input on how to provide a fulfilling life for a border collie in these circumstances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a question about this. I'm in the process of looking for my first border collie, and I keep reading the "border collies need a job to do" theme. And then I also read that the job doesn't have to be herding or high-level agility--frisbee and jobs around the house and trick training can keep a dog happy and mentally stimulated, and border collies can be great companions as well as great working dogs. But, as Donald says, it seems to me that these tasks, at least in my home, are not really "work", as in, I don't primarily want a dog to have someone to throw a frisbee to. The true purpose of getting a dog is to have a companion for myself and my fiancé.

 

We are happy to spend the time training and playing hide and seek games, etc. I'd be interested in trying agility or nose-work, and maybe even herding classes. But for us, these things are fundamentally "play", in that these aren't functions we need our dog to excel at, and if either us or the dog was unhappy doing them we'd pick something else. Now, maybe this is a silly question to ask, but will our dog realize this? Can we find a border collie willing to accept "companion" as his primary employment? Or should we make the decision to take trick training and the like super-seriously? Will our dog know if we're just pretending?

 

To be clear, we aren't looking for a dog who's content lying on the couch alone all day. Our dog will accompany us throughout our work days, exercise with us, and go just about everywhere we can manage to take her. Much of her training will be very important to us, since we want a well-behaved dog we can trust in many environments. And you never know--maybe after a few classes it will turn out that I'm really into agility or obedience or some other dog sport.

 

Sorry if none of this makes sense--I'm just wondering whether anyone here has input on how to provide a fulfilling life for a border collie in these circumstances.

 

in my opinion, if the dog has a goal in its activities then it's likely to think of it as work. If not, then it's play. Of course the way you act contributes, but mostly it seems to be the having a goal. For us, at least. For example, if I go outside and have a light-hearted ball throwing session with my dog the there's no way to win or lose. That's play. But if I participate in flyball where the dog has to remember its training to go over the jumps and is working towards the goal of going as fast as possible, that's work. Aed will run back and forth on the grass and have a great time, and that's play. But as soon as we're near the ocean he considers it his duty to catch every wave, and he goes into work mode (although that is admittedly a bit closer to CCD/OCD and we don't encourage it).

 

If you want to go on hikes with your dog, then think of a task. Teach it to find and bring garbage along the trail to you. When you're leaving the house, let your dog bring you your keys and wallet. If you're out with the kids, teach your dog to lead you to them. Just give it a goal. If a border collie is walking along a trail, or sitting around watching you go out, or tromping along on a walk in the neighbourhood...they'll be happy, sure, and interested in the world around them. But they can't do that forever, just like we can't. We start to really want something to work towards.

 

Just my opinion, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. MeMeow wonders about work and play. That's an interesting distinction and I confess to no better answer than: tail down: work, tail up: play. Like the Supreme Court, I know it when I see it.

 

But when she writes: "these aren't functions we need our dog to excel at" she's got things wrongwayto. It doesn't matter what an owner thinks the working dog's work is or is not. Doesn't matter the owner's life style, interests or commitments. What matters is what the Brder Collie thinks its work is.

 

Play vs work can be an argument between, say, obedience trainers and sheepdoggers. But it is more important to realize that one's own life, ambitions and the place to which one has assigned a pet dog have NOTHING TO DO with what a Border Collie decides is its work. If its work is rally or SAR or monitoring toddlers or stockwork, fine. If you have some other job the dog can do ( pretty good test is: can the dog be right in his work and you be wrong?) then fine.

 

Choose a job. Border Collies will work, whether you want them to or not. It's better to start out determining the dog's work. Don't and the dog will decide for you.

 

Donald McCaig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that your dog needs a job. That job could even be chores. One of my dogs will help me pick up laundry and (safe) garbage. She loves flipping into work mode and helping with that. She doesn't think agility or obedience is fun or work, but chores are work. My other BC gets bored and causes trouble if I don't let her work at least once a day (her job is training, but she doesn't care if that is tricks or agility). If there is no way to dedicate yourself to brain games of some sort daily you may be better off without a border collie, because they tend to make up their own job if they are bored and that job could be digging holes, shredding every piece of paper they can find, barking at anything that moves, or chewing on whatever it feels like.

 

Exercise isn't the most important thing it's keeping their mind productive and not destructive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither of my BCs think agility is work. They think it's a great game we play between jobs. Escorting us safely down the road(going for a walk) is a job, checking any of the other animal on the farm is a job, bringing in any of the animals that get put away for the night is a job, picking up certain things I've dropped is a job, policing the behavior of every member of the household is a job(that I wish Gideon would not have taken on).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

 

Just give it a goal. If a border collie is walking along a trail, or sitting around watching you go out, or tromping along on a walk in the neighbourhood...they'll be happy, sure, and interested in the world around them. But they can't do that forever, just like we can't. We start to really want something to work towards.

 

This is a nice way of looking at it. I can see how defining a goal changes the dynamics of playing or hanging out into a job to do.

 

 

It doesn't matter what an owner thinks the working dog's work is or is not. Doesn't matter the owner's life style, interests or commitments. What matters is what the Brder Collie thinks its work is.

 

Play vs work can be an argument between, say, obedience trainers and sheepdoggers. But it is more important to realize that one's own life, ambitions and the place to which one has assigned a pet dog have NOTHING TO DO with what a Border Collie decides is its work. If its work is rally or SAR or monitoring toddlers or stockwork, fine. If you have some other job the dog can do ( pretty good test is: can the dog be right in his work and you be wrong?) then fine.

 

This gets to the heart of my question. Our dog will not care if what it considers "work" is what I consider "a great break from work". And I like your test question too. Work needs to have consistent rules.

 

I agree that your dog needs a job. That job could even be chores. One of my dogs will help me pick up laundry and (safe) garbage. She loves flipping into work mode and helping with that. She doesn't think agility or obedience is fun or work, but chores are work. My other BC gets bored and causes trouble if I don't let her work at least once a day (her job is training, but she doesn't care if that is tricks or agility). If there is no way to dedicate yourself to brain games of some sort daily you may be better off without a border collie, because they tend to make up their own job if they are bored and that job could be digging holes, shredding every piece of paper they can find, barking at anything that moves, or chewing on whatever it feels like.

 

Yep, I'm thinking about these questions because I want our dog to be fulfilled without needing to resort to hole digging and compulsive barking. I know mental stimulation is important, but Donald's comment suggested that some dogs need something beyond the mental engagement training and agility offers. I'm curious about what makes one of your dogs consider agility work, while for the other, that doesn't do it. I guess some of it must just be differences between individual dogs!

 

Neither of my BCs think agility is work. They think it's a great game we play between jobs. Escorting us safely down the road(going for a walk) is a job, checking any of the other animal on the farm is a job, bringing in any of the animals that get put away for the night is a job, picking up certain things I've dropped is a job, policing the behavior of every member of the household is a job(that I wish Gideon would not have taken on).

 

 

Funny how chene's example of "just hanging out" is your example of a job to do! And I'm so curious about why some dogs think agility is work while others don't. A lot of rescues in my area recommend agility as a way to give your dog a purpose in the absence of sheep, but it seems like it doesn't always pan out that way.

 

Sorry to derail the thread, and thanks again for all of your thoughts. I really enjoy reading all of your responses, and I love hearing stories about your dogs. I've been lurking here for quite some time, and I've always found this forum to hold a wealth of information and ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny how chene's example of "just hanging out" is your example of a job to do! And I'm so curious about why some dogs think agility is work while others don't. A lot of rescues in my area recommend agility as a way to give your dog a purpose in the absence of sheep, but it seems like it doesn't always pan out that way.

 

Yeah, funny how that worked out. But it's the same way a service dog is always working in situations where most dogs are just hanging out. In the case of "escorting down the road" I imagine the dog thought up the job, not the human. But whatever works!

 

Aed and I are just starting out in agility. He still thinks of it as a game because he hasn't gotten a sense of the bigger picture of it - that is, running around a course as fast and as accurately as you can. Maybe he never will understand that. Right now to him it's just jumping and running around on things and getting treats. I'll update back some day when he has been doing agility for a while and see if he's decided it's work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I'm so curious about why some dogs think agility is work while others don't.

 

I think it just depends on the dog. When Gabe sees agility equipment, he's tail up, bouncy, SO EXCITED. We don't compete, although if he can keep his brain we might head down that path one day, but for the most part it's just this really awesome thing he gets to do where he climbs on stuff and runs and jumps and gets treats. I don't really think he sees that as working.

 

However, when we're out on a walk and working on not reacting to other dogs, he's just more "on". He'll look at another dog, and look back at me, and he's just more...serious. In obedience class too, he's not bouncing, he's not excited, he's intense and just ready for the next thing to come and waiting for the next direction. I usually take him to my friend's house for agility, and he'll chase after a ball in her barn when we're done, play with the ball, and then bring it over a jump and onto the table. He just enjoys it.

 

I've done enough training with my dogs that my dog training friends asked me to help teach some classes. My day job is Social Worker. What is "work" to my friends (dog training), is my "break". It's all individual for people, and is for dogs too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder if the difference is the attitude of the person. We humans approach work and play as fundamentally different in most cases. Work is serious, Needs done and even lacks that light hearted approach that we have with play, some do not enjoy work and it is very evident.

 

Most border collies Enjoy Life - no matter what that life entails. I am not so sure they have work and play categories as we do. My bcs "work" sheep and assist daily with the management of the flock. I enjoy the 'work' and so do they. Yes they are serious about it, tail down, all business and will work 5 min or 5 hours. Training on sheep is the same, serious work but very rewarding and fulfilling for me and I believe for them. My older boy is not pleased if I spend to long in the house in the morning - he will pace and woof and go to the door until we do chores and then kicks back and will hang out. At least until the next time I head to the door.

 

If the dogs are out in the yard able to do what they please even in play they are serious - tail down running, romping, chasing. I wonder if we approach agility and agility training or playing ball Like it is a serious matter would the dogs think it serious as well? Is it us that thinks work should not be fun and only silly things without a goal or rules should be fun?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For my dogs, safely escorting us down the road became a job when they realized all the "dangers" they were "keeping away" from us. They actively watch for the yard that has the barking dog behind the fence and walk between us and the dog or they watch out for wildlife, strangers, vehicles, whatever. The difference is in whether or not the dog thinks it is working.

 

Both of mine have the "this is one great big fun game" attitude about agility. They do not think it is their job to do the course as precisely and quickly as they can. They are both the fastest in our class, but it is shear exuberance and my ability to anticipate them that keeps them fast. They are NOTHING like a BC that has decided agility is their job, no intensity. Micah comes closer than Gideon, but it's still nothing like how intense he is on stock, but Micah is just more serious in everything he does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Molly decided agility was a job after, and only after, she figured out the point of the game. Before that she was doing what she was told and it was fun (if somewhat stressful) but lately with maturity I'm seeing her turn onto it more and more. More intensity, and the silly goofiness has been falling off.

 

You could almost see the moment the switch flipped and she understood the point.

 

I think that's mostly her, though.


She's silly and bouncy about some things, still, but overall once she figures out the routine and rules of a thing she gets pretty danged serious about EVERYTHING.

 

And if she stays silly? It's stress related, as contrary as that might sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Molly decided agility was a job after, and only after, she figured out the point of the game. Before that she was doing what she was told and it was fun (if somewhat stressful) but lately with maturity I'm seeing her turn onto it more and more. More intensity, and the silly goofiness has been falling off.

 

You could almost see the moment the switch flipped and she understood the point.

 

I think that's mostly her, though.

 

The same thing happened with Tessa.

 

She was very silly when we started trialing and sometimes in the middle of a run, she would stop and play bow, and her tail was always waggling as she ran. She ran nicely, but it was "loose" and "silly" in a lot of ways.

 

Then, one day I watched a video from a trial, and I saw something quite different. Her tail was steady, she was very clearly focused on the task at hand. It was evident that she was still enjoying herself - maybe even more than before - but she "got" the idea and it became something that very obviously has a purpose in her mind.

 

And that's when it really got fun for both of us.

 

I hope the same thing happens for Bandit someday. He's very silly about his Agility. He has more natural drive than Tessa, but it is very clear that he has no clue what the point is right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...