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Using different trainers


KrisK
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This is a general question - Because of where I live, trainers are not within easy travelling distance - some are 5 hours away, some are 8 hours away. Is there anything wrong with training with different trainers? Each has successful dogs and of course, their training methods have differences.

What are your experiences in working with more than one trainer - the good, the bad and the ugly.

 

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I think if you are brand new, then it can confuse the heck out of a person. But if you've been working dogs for a while, and have a bit of a clue, then it's just like going to a lot of clinics--you can always learn something; sometimes you learn that a particular method is not for you, and sometimes you pick up something really useful. The main thing to me is that you know enough to really evaluate the usefulness of what method or exercise is being used.

A

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I agree with Anna. I think for new people/dogs consistency is very important. Different methods could at best be rather confusing. Clearly if there's no one nearby then it's something of a special situation and you gotta do what you gotta do, but if one of the folks you're looking at is closer than the others and uses a training method that suits you, I'd stick with that one person at least until you're more comfortable with the whole process and have gained the knowledge and confidence to make use (either in practice or in theory <--by theory, I mean that you can watch or read about a method and then implement it on your own) of different training methods.

 

J.

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If I can convince my dog that sheep are not as boring as they look I'll be in the position of training with two different trainers, partly distance, partly cost.

 

One I would like to train with all the time but can't. On the plus side I have told him of my plans and he says I'll be fine with the other.

 

If I recognise an unresolvable conflict of method I will revise my plan.

 

Meantime we'll be meeting with trainer number 2 on Thursday morning having been to number 1 last week.

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I like to pick and choose different methods from different trainers that work for each of my dogs. There is no one size fits all. The very best trainers adapt to each individual and may try several different methods before finding the ones that work.

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I dunno. When I started training sheepdogs there weren't a whole lot of options, especially for private lessons. Clinics were also few and far between. So I went to the clinics when I could, with IIRC a total of three different trainers.

 

I learned something from each of them, though I have to say that I didn't learn a whole lot from two of them. In the one instance the guy was a brute and we ended up leaving his clinic early. With the other, a nationally known top open trial competitor -- a big hat, if you will -- I learned a few things but most importantly, what I learned was that you have to be willing to adjust your training methods to suit the individual dog. It turned out that this individual wasn't capable of training or handling a really tough dog. He just didn't have the tools in his tool box to be able to train the kind of dog I had. Still, I learned some things from watching him with other dogs during the rest of the clinic that were helpful later on when other situations arose and also when I'd gotten another, more easily trainable dog.

 

The third clinician was one who could read and adapt to any dog put in front of him, with the obvious exception of a dog who just didn't have any instinct. He knew dogs, he knew sheep, he knew people (though he'd say he didn't know the last very well) and he could get the best out of all of them. I ended up sending my tough dog to him for training and not only was he able to get through to him in ways the others hadn't been able to manage at all and send him home a nicely started dog, he actually complemented the dog that others had told us to give up on.

 

An interesting aside is that when I went back to graduate school and began teaching, I found myself going back to many of his lessons, in particular being adaptable in my methods (e.g. when I wasn't getting through to a student in one way to try another approach), in working with students as well as dogs. :)

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When I was starting out, I did find it difficult to go between trainers with different methods. It just got kind of tangled up in my brain and I'd find myself struggling with, "But that other trainer said this!"

However, if you are comfortable with two trainers and find their methods jibe well, then maybe you'd have no problem. Nowadays I'm perfectly fine going to whomever, as I'm able to pick and choose the things that I like and find useful. But as a beginner, I didn't have that ability and found it easier to just stick with one person, most of the time.

Everyone's mileage may vary. :)

~ Gloria

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I agree with Anna. I think for new people/dogs consistency is very important. Different methods could at best be rather confusing. Clearly if there's no one nearby then it's something of a special situation and you gotta do what you gotta do, but if one of the folks you're looking at is closer than the others and uses a training method that suits you, I'd stick with that one person at least until you're more comfortable with the whole process and have gained the knowledge and confidence to make use (either in practice or in theory <--by theory, I mean that you can watch or read about a method and then implement it on your own) of different training methods.

 

J.

I agree with just about everything you say Julie! :-)

 

As a novice, the thing about "different training methods" is that I am beginning to thank I must've missed the memo! I mean the one in which there was a list, or an overview of what the different methods (or schools of training sheepdogs) are! :-)

 

When I first started taking lessons with an older dog years ago, people recommended I read Virgil Holland. So I did. But I have since met people who are proponents of V.H.'s methods, who approach the same dog and the same issues very differently. More recently, I watched and/or read Andy Nikless and Julie Hill, somewhat similar, but also quite different... Trainers I've consulted seem to have a hard time articulating (or I am not asking the right questions) what their method actually is, and what distinguishes it from others'.

 

Many will say they've learned from more than one "Big Hat." Reading Top Handlers Talk About Starting a Dog also shows that there are many differences. It's hard to clearly categorize those differences. Many would say it depends on the dog... what techniques or approach they might use.

 

The best understanding I have come to is that some aim for a more "natural" dog and start with very few commands, little "control," and few to no corrections. Others start with wanting at least a solid stop and are maybe more inclined to teach commands earlier (?), and to correct, and then to escalate correction instead of adapting so the dog can succeed. (?) But sometimes trainers who say they like a natural dog will also say a beginner should train the other way so that they can slow things down. And sometimes trainers say that you can only take the "natural" approach, with a dog that is "soft" or at least not so very keen, that sheep get injured...

 

Then I watched a Derek Scrimgeour DVD and I could not make out what the heck he was doing. (So I need to re-watch). But reading about his methods has been interesting to me, but it seems so vastly different from Virgil Holland. Also, Holland and Bruce Fogt's books are both very correction based, and some trainers would say *not* to correct a young keen dog, but to let that dog learn from his mistakes and gain a "feel" for his sheep through experience. So, the only real difference I can articulate myself, is this very broad one in which some do *less* command training, and some people what minute, explicit control.

 

But THEN, I have been reading discussions of late that refer to different "systems" in training. For example the "body pressure system" verses the "ground pressure" system. And the whole pressure thing is getting more confusing since, the basic things I learned were about putting pressure ON the dog, and then releasing it. But some dogs do better with releasing, reducing pressure... AY YAI YAI!

 

It's all very interesting, and if you are young, and have a lot of time to learn via trial and error, very well. But is there, somewhere, an overview that might compare/contrast the main differing schools of thought? And anyway- good luck KrisK !

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Alfreda, the realization I've finally come to is that the best trainer is the one we can understand and that we agree with. And that's pretty much it. :)

Training methods are like pizza toppings: there are a lot of 'em and it's mainly a matter of personal tastes.

~ Gloria

P.S.
I'm guilty of having had the same thing told to me by two or three instructors - but it takes that certain person to strike just the right turn of phrase to make my brain go "click." :rolleyes:

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Dear Ms. Alfreda,

 

While different sheepdog handler/trainers offer slightly different approaches to a particular dog, compared to the differences between pet trainers ours are insignificant. We've nothing like the Cesar Milan/Karen Pryor battlefield.

 

There are disagreements about the strength and timing of corrections but everybody trains with corrections. Nobody trains with treats (except, maybe, puppies), nobody reputable trains with ecollars.

 

There are brilliant handler/instructors I cannot learn from . Despite our commonalities I can't hear what they have to say. No fault/no blame. Others, no better than those I can't learn from, I quote. They've formed the pre-thought, pre-verbal, instantaneous mental matrix that help me "see"my sheepdog.

 

As a novice you need to begin "seeing" your sheepdog; to understand what he's thinking and why he's doing what he's doing. A particular action -gripping say - might be caused by a variety of dog thoughts/habits/character traits: urge to control, inchoate urge to kill, lack of confidence, anger, frustration, establishing authority ...

 

 

Seeing your dog sounds easy. It's not.

 

Any open handler can show a novice how to start her dog around a small ring. You want the one who helps you "see" your dog.

 

 

A five hour drive doesn't seem too long. The farthest I ever drove for a clinic was Virginia to Wisconsin. Well worth it too.

 

Donald McCaig

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Alfreda, the realization I've finally come to is that the best trainer is the one we can understand and that we agree with. And that's pretty much it. :)

 

Training methods are like pizza toppings: there are a lot of 'em and it's mainly a matter of personal tastes.

 

~ Gloria

P.S.

I'm guilty of having had the same thing told to me by two or three instructors - but it takes that certain person to strike just the right turn of phrase to make my brain go "click." :rolleyes:

Absolutely agree. This isn't a sheepdog training issue, it's a general training choice. I don't want to pay money to someone I'm going to come into conflict with. I need to like my trainer and to find them receptive to questions.

 

I read Derek Scrimgeour's book, considered other people's opinions of him, watched videos before I booked a session with him. An hour's session extended way beyond that and consisted of a bit of sheep contact and the rest a wide ranging chat about dog matters. (And he didn't charge because I was booked on a clinic which was a nice surprise.) Nothing he said in any way conflicted with my approach when clicker training. We come to the same conclusion by different routes, that's all.

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I find that the best approach to begin with is watch a trainer with their dogs first. See how they deal with issues with different dogs / different ages. Then watch them with other dogs and people. See if what is done is effective and helps the people and dogs learn.

 

There are as many different herding instructors as obedience trainers - they run the gamut. It is hard for a novice person to see the little slight changes that someone who has worked with dogs and sheep for a few years will see that make a huge difference to the dog. It is tough to sort things out. I find it difficult at times to put things into words when I am working with a novice person and dog - But I can Show them so I do lots of demonstrations with different dogs so they SEE it. Words only go so far, to me training border collies is FEEL as much as anything. Some dogs need a wake up call and a correction can seem harsh but needs to break a habit, some dogs worry if you raise your voice so sorting that out can be difficult if you are just watching.

 

I think working with one trainer is best to begin with. I also think getting out to watch others can be helpful and eye opening. If you need to go to more than 1 then it is best to learn from trainers who are similar in their approach and philosophy of training. Big difference are confusing for you and the Dog.

 

Honestly I learned the most from a trained border collie and simply doing chores daily with him. I started with a pup and struggled for 4 years, we got the job done but it was far from proper and smooth. I found a rancher who used border collies and went to her for help. Her suggestion was she find me a good trained dog - that dog taught me things that no person could. Then I started going to some clinics and every few months would go back to the gal who set me on the right path.

I often give folks a trained dog to work with while they are here for lessons. It gives them the ability to feel what it is like and be less worried about their dog and doing it "right". You need to see and feel Right to be able to know wrong I think. If you have an opportunity to work with other dogs Always go for it, you will learn a ton.

 

Sometimes I tell the same person the same thing and show them over and over until it clicks. I believe herding training is a process and a journey - you are only going to absorb so much and learn what you are ready for at the time and only see so much. It takes YEARS so keep at it. I encourage keeping a journal so you look back and see how far you have come, video sessions if you are able to take the pressure out of the now and watch later.

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Alfreda,

There will be some trainers whose methods you will know instantly aren't for you. There are still the "beat the dog into submission" types out there. Absolutely not for me. But I suppose some folks might actually want to learn to train that way. There are also plenty of trainers (mainly folks who do all breed herding) who will use treats for training stockwork. It might be effective for some breeds and may well make some clients happy, but again, not for me.

 

Then there are a ton of folks who fall across an entire middle spectrum. Many of us train in the moment. As Donald put it, we "see" the dog (and the stock) and then adjust our method to that particular dog (and how the stock are behaving) in that particular moment. I use pressure-release. I think most of us do. But sometimes that pressure might be directed at the dog, sometimes at a place, sometimes onto the stock. All will have the effect of allowing the dog to feel pressure--the pressure is just applied differently depending on the situation. (And for a novice, I might well tell them to put pressure on the ground or the stock, because novices tend to overdo it, and by NOT putting pressure directly on the dog, there is less risk of the novice doing harm. So they are really just different ways of achieving the same end goal.)

 

I fall into the camp of wanting a natural working dog. I don' require a solid down off stock (I can get it on stock, sooner or later), nor do I put commands on actions early. I was watching a friend work her young dog the other day. The dog is very one sided. Every time she wanted the dog to flank to her "bad" side, she'd speak to the dog. Her speaking had the effect of causing the dog to turn in and stop, thus interrupting the flow that was happening as the dog started to flank to the bad side (that is, the dog was going in the direction she wanted already and speaking the command caused the dog to stop). I suggested she do nothing but perhaps shush the dog and at the same time move around the stock to change the balance point and encourage the dog on around. It worked and she had the dog going around to her bad side much more easily.

 

Sometimes less is more. In many cases, especially with novice handlers, the chatter is such that it actually interferes with the dog, who is trying to understand how it can control the stock, how its own pressure and release works on the stock, and so on. I feel that not only should the young/novice dog be allowed to just work, but that the young/novice handler will gain a much greater understanding of how stock react to a dog and how a dog learns from the stock if they quit trying to control every little thing that's happening (easier said than done, I know :D ).

 

But, I'm digressing a bit. When I talk about methods, I really mean that you not only need to be able to develop a working relationship with the trainer (and not all personalities mesh), but you also need to be comfortable with and capable of implementing that trainer's methods (assuming that you might be working on your own between lessons).

 

I've used this example before, but I'll use it again because it illustrates what I'm talking about. When I was pretty new and Twist was maybe a year old (she'll be 14 this month), I went to a Bobby Dalziel clinic. I learned a great deal, but there were some things he did that I was just way too novice to even hope to replicate. Bobby uses a long line (or did) to help teach inside flanks on the drive. While watching him use this method it made perfect sense to me, BUT when I tried it at home, I was hopeless. Now that I am an experienced handler, I get how to use that method. I don't use it a lot, but I have. But *I* had to get to the point with my own skills to be able to replicate what I was shown that day all those years ago. So one of the things I meant by "method" was simply that what the trainer does is something you understand and have some hope of doing yourself.

 

I don't like a mechanical dog and I don't train that way. I don't like drilling, so I don't train that way. I rarely practice a trial course because that's too much like drilling. I don't train things in a particular order (if, for example my dog isn't yet driving but we're working on something and a giant hole opens up in the middle of the stock, I'll call the youngster through to me, even though shedding generally occurs a much more advanced level)--this is another example of training "in the moment." When I'm looking for a trainer, those would be things that would influence my choice because if I don't like those things (rigid structure), why would I choose a trainer who trains that way? So that also falls under "method."

 

Obviously, when you're new you just have to get out there and get started somehow, but if you're reading, watching, experimenting, you'll figure out what kind of learner *you* are and what sort of trainer you would like to be and that will then influence the sort of trainer and training methods you will prefer. And fortunately most of our dogs are pretty resilient and will allow us our mistakes while we're figuring out this whole stockdog thing.

 

J.

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Dear Ms. Alfreda,

 

I'll quote Julie's wise and important last sentence " . . fortunately most of our dogs are pretty resilient and will allow us our mistakes while we're figuring out this whole stockdog thing."

 

If sheepdogs were often ruined by novice handler's mistakes there would be no open handlers. The dogs want to do it more than we do and they'll work through our mistakes to get there.

 

I taught my first dog Pip's outrun off sheep. Pip forgave me and eventually placed in open trials.

 

Donald McCaig

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I always tell people the herding training is needed by people far more than it is needed by the dogs. Dogs that are going to be stock dogs from long lines of stock dogs have the information in their heads the day they are born. They just need to be exposed to stock by people that are smart enough to learn from the dog and not get in the way :)

 

When you see a pup that is 3 to 6 months old on sheep for the first time doing what comes naturally it is truly an Amazing thing. Witnessing that pup grow and develop its skills gives you great appreciation for all that knowledge and skill that is contained within a very natural dog.

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Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Many years ago, I invited my friend Vicki Hearne to a Jack Knox clinic - a novice clinic. Vicki had trained dogs professionally including movie dogs and was put off by a "novice" clinic but I told her, "there's where you'll see what it's about."

 

Jack is the best I know for starting a pup - I'd happily have him introduce all my pups to sheep.

 

One after another, Jack took these pets into Ethel Conrad's snow-fenced small ring, moved the sheep around, cooed and excited as the pup sniffed for poop or socialized with dogs outside the fence until, in a blinding flash, the pup SAW SHEEP. His tail dropped, he crouched and he began working. He didn't know what on earth to do nor why but like Jonah he'd been called.

 

It's such a beautiful, profound transformation it can still bring tears to my eyes. PET DOG becomes SHEEPDOG.

 

When my trial dog disappears into the sagebrush to run out half a mile, find and bring rank western ewes to my feet, it's merely an elaboration of that moment.

 

Vicki had trained dogs for decades but was stunned by the sheepdog metamorphosis.

 

Donald McCaig

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I will proffer my very novice opinion on different trainers... I needed to be reassured that it was OK to not be 100% on-board with every method or system presented to me by much more experienced and titled handlers/trainers. Not everything works for everyone! I wasn't understanding that, and I felt badly when I would have my doubts about how one trainer problem solved things for my dog. At the time, I couldn't possibly realise it, but the approach was a poor fit for my bitch (it involved heavy corrections, a lot of unrelenting body pressure [chasing out]). In fact, it put her off working. It also left a very bitter taste in my mouth, because I thought my dog was solely to blame, not the way we had gone about training her.

 

Luckily, dogs are resilient, forgiving, and bounce back eventually. A whole year later, she was ready to work again. And this time, I was determined to not do her a disservice and use methods of the square peg-round hole variety with her, again. It's gone very well. I'm also saving a lot of money because I'm not desperate to attend clinics of Big Hats whose systems wouldn't work in my specific case. At best I would audit a clinic of "big names", should they be within a reasonable driving distance. I've settled on just the one trainer to treat myself with. :)

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Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

I think it is usually best for a novice to audit their first clinic. Worrying about one's own dog can reduce learning. Linda Tesdahl - who is a successful open handler attended clinics for 6 years before she bought her first Border Collie.

 

Donald McCaig

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Well that went well this morning. I now have æ dog that knows what sheep are for and nothing was done or said that would lead me to believe that there is likely to be any significant difference in approach in initial training between the two trainers I plan to use.

 

Last week we tried a round pen with a few sheep and another dog; today it was just Risk in a field with me and a flock of 20 or so sheep that had space to run.

 

I was most impressed that when they disappeared over the hill he went to see where they'd gone.

 

He kept them in order appropriately with minimal force but could turn it on if needed.

 

Now to negotiate a training budget with my husband.

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Well lesson one has been that they will huddle round me because they are less afraid of me than the dog.

 

I was expecting to start with five or six which I could have extricated myself from, not twenty with the trainer at the other end of the field on the radio.

 

And walking backwards downhill while being jostled by the sheep intent on not letting me escape is easier said than done.

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