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You know, even if you do want to win?


Why is that a sin?

 

Why is wanting to be successful bad?


Wanting to win AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DOG, either because of too much pressure being applied or a dog who doesn't enjoy it, that's bad, but that's not the norm.

Wanting to succeed is not bad. It's okay to want to do well at a sport you play, even if the partner is your dog. Don't put winning above the dog, but it's okay to want to do a good job and get some titles and points and pretty ribbons. I'm still making my peace with that, but honestly? You are allowed to want to do well!

 

And let's be real: How much fun is anyone having when they aren't succeeding (getting a q) at least now and then?

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To clarify: I don't think that any dog can do competition agility, but I have found that nearly all dogs (that have a pulse - I like that!) can benefit from doing agility exercises - in a back yard or just navigating street obstacles like retaining walls, etc. Dogs benefit by having a heightened body awareness, and by developing coordination and confidence with unfamiliar footing. They also can benefit from facing new obstacles, like parkour dogs. Challenging themselves and thinking in motion.

 

To me that is all agility, and to think that your dog is not doing agility if it does not compete, or even do it in a setting with others doing the same thing, is silly, to me. Agility can be great for most dogs, but competition is all about the people. The dogs may get stoked at agility trials, but that is, I believe, at least 50% the human transmitting their eagerness to compete, and to win.

 

Yes, what you describe above is more Parkour, which is growing in popularity very quickly.

 

As far as why dogs get stoked at trials, my perspective is different based on the response I have seen of different dogs. Maddie (OK, I cannot believe I forgot Maddie in my original post!!!!!!) was definitely just in it for the social experience. She enjoyed going to trials with me, but in the ring she would check out and sniff as often as not, and her runs were more free-form. Dean would shut down. And Tessa blossoms and turns into the very best version of herself, and runs like the game matters to her.

 

I simply can't buy that Tessa's response is me transmitting eagerness to her. For one thing - I didn't have that when she and I first started. I fully expected her to crumble. And here she shined. How could that have come from me?

 

And the response of my three competition Agility dogs to competition was so radically different.

 

I can only conclude that it is 90% the dog and only about 10% me.

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You know, even if you do want to win?

 

Why is that a sin?

 

Why is wanting to be successful bad?

 

Wanting to win AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DOG, either because of too much pressure being applied or a dog who doesn't enjoy it, that's bad, but that's not the norm.

 

Wanting to succeed is not bad. It's okay to want to do well at a sport you play, even if the partner is your dog. Don't put winning above the dog, but it's okay to want to do a good job and get some titles and points and pretty ribbons. I'm still making my peace with that, but honestly? You are allowed to want to do well!

 

And let's be real: How much fun is anyone having when they aren't succeeding (getting a q) at least now and then?

 

I have thought a lot about this It is a question that I ponder as a +R trainer, as a competitor, and as the owner/handler of some very . . . interesting . . . dogs.

 

I have come to this conclusion - there is nothing wrong with wanting to win. But - right along with what you said above - for me the desire to win must never (ever, ever, EVER!) come before the best interest of my dog.

 

If I am putting my dog's needs and well being first, then I have no problem with wanting to win.

 

So . . . there are some circumstances, for me, where "winning" in the traditional sense (a Q, a placement, a title) is not what I am going for with my dog at all. One of my all time favorite competition runs with Dean was this one time when he slalomed the jumps on a Jumpers course instead of jumping them. Why was that a "win" in my book? He was having a blast. His whole attitude was, "Hey! Check out what I can do!" For him that was a "win".

 

But . . . with Tessa I want to Q. I can go for that with her because she is putting her whole heart into it, she thrives with a little bit of competition pressure, and . . . if we don't Q I make the choice never to be upset with her or disappointed with her. (I might be livid with myself if I made a stupid mistake, but never her!!)

 

I don't have any issue with those who are going for Q's, placements, high scores, etc. when the dog is clearly thriving in that context and the well being of the dog is never second to those goals.

 

Personally, I like to compete against the course. I want to "beat" the course. I don't really care about placing against other people, but I do want to make time, get Tessa through without a fault, and use some of the fancy handling we do in class, if it is called for.

 

That's great with Tessa. Would have been all wrong for Dean. With him I had to mentally pretend we had already NQ'ed. There could be NO pressure for him. And that's what we did because that's what he needed.

 

I agree - I don't think we should vilify those who want to excel at a performance sport. But I never like to see people pushing their dogs unreasonably, or getting angry at the dog for . . . being a dog.

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And *I* don't want to just play in my back yard. I have no desire to do 'agility' on the street by hopping off and on retaining walls and to me, honestly? Claling that agility is like calling AKC herding herding. It's NOT THE SAME GAME.

 

(FYI, there is dog parkour now and that's what you're describing.)

 

This is an aside, but I have started doing a little Parkour with Bandit. GREAT, I think, for a very young Agility dog in training. He is learning to get his feet under himself on different "obstacles" and is hopping up and down, and learning to pay attention to where he is as he is doing different things - without speed in the equation. Which - I think - is highly valuable.

 

I agree with you - that's not Agility, it is Parkour. But - I think I am going to start recommending Parkour (done safely) for young Agility dogs in training. It's a great way, I think, to help a dog grow in being agile. Kind of an extension of the pivot platforms and ladders and things that we tend to use early on. I think there is great benefit to it.

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I really do agree - completely! There is never, ever, an excuse to put your goals about the well being of your dog. I honestly don't see that happen a lot, and I'm glad.


I think for me it's come up a lot in my thoughts because I reached this point where... I was stressing my dog out and defeating us before we ever started. I was SO DETERMINED not to get competitive or pressure her that I was actively expecting a disaster when I stepped up to the line. I wasn't just setting goals that were appropriate for my dog, I was sabotaging success because I was afraid if I succeeded or wanted to succeed I would, by the very nature of doing it, upset my dog. She didn't trust me, I wasn't really showing/conveying trust in her, and it was just *off*.

 

Interestingly enough, the first time I really started letting go of that, we got 7 for 7 Qs, 2 of them in her first ever open runs, and her YPS went up A LOT. She was happier. She was having more fun. I wasn't timid and afraid to try anything but was really getting out there and playing with her like I do when we're in a practice or lower pressure (for me - my dog doesn't seem to respond to even the most extreme environmental changes with agility, except by periodically popping weaves) setting. Heck, even the weave popping issue went away entirely.

 

So I'm still making peace with the fact that yeah. I want the Qs. I want the titles. I don't give a hoot about being faster than another dog (like... at all), and if we don't title or Q that's *FINE* as long as my dog is happy, but. I want to achieve some success and I want to be able to say "you know what? we're pretty good at this game" instead of immediately knee-jerk handing out a list of all the reasons we're NOT good at it when someone compliments us.

 

It's a work in progress, and I'm not COMPETITIVE against other people but I do want to do this well. And I want my NATCH, someday. I won't be sad if we don't get it, but I'm pretty okay saying that's our (long term) goal and I think it's achievable (with this dog). Maybe. Possibly. Chances may kill us, but we'll try and see and be happy regardless.

 

 

also:

 

 

This is an aside, but I have started doing a little Parkour with Bandit. GREAT, I think, for a very young Agility dog in training. He is learning to get his feet under himself on different "obstacles" and is hopping up and down, and learning to pay attention to where he is as he is doing different things.

I agree with you - that's not Agility, it is Parkour. But - I think I am going to start recommending Parkour (done safely) for young Agility dogs in training. It's a great way, I think, to help a dog grow in being agile. Kind of an extension of the pivot platforms and ladders and things that we tend to use early on. I think there is great benefit to it.

I do do a lot of things like hopping on and over logs, perching on things and the like. It just... doesn't at all occupy the same space in my life and head as agility. I get a great deal of fun out of taking pictures of my dogs on weird objects and I DO think it's entertaining it's just. Not a replacement (for me).

And yes, it's really good body awareness, conditioning, and balance work too.

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I think that if you're the type of person that wants to take a sport or activity seriously then you owe it to the dog you're working with to make sure that they have enjoyment in the activity. I mean, don't go through dogs like water looking for the illusive "perfect" one, but do ensure that it can mesh well with the activity and environment.

 

I personally think that a dog's enjoyment is about 75% on the trainer and 25% on the dog, I.e. Most, but certainly not all, dogs can enjoy an activity with the right trainer. And the more solid the dog's temperament the higher the likelihood that they'll be adaptable.

 

I know with search dog work that if I'm going to do it, I *need* to have a dog who enjoys it and is successful at it. I know the type of dog that I like and I'm picky in selecting them. I don't think dog sports are quite on the same level of seriousness as SAR work, but I do believe that if you're serious about doing them then it's in both yours and your dogs best interest to find a suitable one for your training goals. It may work, it may not. But at least you can stack the deck in your favor.

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To me agility is a team sport, my dog won't run for anyone else but me, some people think that is a weakness, I don't care as long as he wants to play with me then I am happy. I am competive, but I am also lucky enough to have a dog that has the potential to win and when I hit the start line I want to be the best I can be, so Rievaulx can have the best run possible... If I am a good handler he has more fun ... It is very obvious even to spectators who have only seen us run a couple of times ... If I suck he is very quick to let me know, it is what makes a competition so very different from training, it is why I train so I can see if I have learnt and improved my skills.

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My best advice on a dog for dog sports, LEARN HOW TO TRAIN!!

Recognize behaviours, learn to spot the problems before they become big ones, Study all types of training. Be consistent, don't let small stuff slip by even at a trial, better to be called off than to have a big problem later. Get on top of small issues before they become bigger ones. Teach your dog to be focused, especially in the 'more hyped' sports. Train the dog so that the doing of the behaviours (correctly) is a reward in itself. Train for a higher level than you are competing in. don't go into the ring with just the minimum skills, have more than you think might be needed and then some.

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Kieran is my first dog, but a lot of dog-experienced people cannot tell. And it's not that I'm such a great dog trainer, it's just that Kieran makes me look like one. The first time we ever took an agility lesson (unfortunately, not one that focused on foundation work), I was so shocked by how easily it came to him. I immediately knew that it was his sport.

 

I thought all dogs were like that when it came to agility, since it's so heavily advertised as being a sport for every dog. We've been taking lessons for almost a year now, and I can see that that isn't true. Multiple instructors have commented on his ability, as well as classmates. One random dude watching from outside the fenced area, yelled to us, "Wow, that was awesome! I really mean it!" after we finished a sequence.

 

His drive for it is just insane, despite the fact that he's typically laid back. Even before we pull up into the parking lot, he starts making a ruckus. When I park, he's clambering over me trying to get out, all while talking with roo-roos. He moans and groans with his eyes fixated on the ring. When we're waiting our turn, he might get distracted by the other dogs, but once we step onto the course, he's suddenly super focused. It's like he blocks everything else out. I've yet to see him check out during a class. A few of the other dogs start doing that less than halfway through the hour.

 

I think I've hit the jackpot in terms of an agility dog - he's fast, focused, and has incredible body awareness. The turns, crosses, and body language come naturally to him. He's making me love agility much more than I thought I would. I just wish that my skills were at his level, and a lot of the time I can't help but think about where he could be now with an experienced handler. By the time I get there, he will be older. I also think about what idiot left him on the streets. I've mentioned this before, but while he likes flyball well enough, he still hasn't turned on to it like he did agility.

 

Man, I've missed this forum. School is eating me alive. My friend was like, "you're obsessed with your dog." And she's a dog lover! I feel at home here, lol.

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The reason I love agility so much is because of the dog community associated with it. Now, this may just be my club, or because I'm part of the club but bottom line? They are fantastic, dog-savvy, giving, people. They're the ones who stepped up to help with Chance (I need to update about him - he's not in a home but he's doing so, so well) and they're currently volunteering their weekends and their dogs to help with Molly. They're certainly always up for a geek out about dog stuff.


I do most of my talking online (via facebook) because I'm painfully shy and awkward in the real world, but dog sports are good socialization for people too!

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I'd rather have a solid, stable, temperament than a dog with all the speed and drive in the world. Not that I want bad structure and a dog who is completely unmotivated by anything and is pokey slow, but my first priorities really will be biddability and a stable temperament.

Yep. After Mer, it was structure. To have a dog who handled the competition environment like she was born to it, and have to retire that dog at 8 because of bad hips AND bad kness,...that was heartbreaking. Obs is a 20" dog jumping 26" with ease. But we have had to work, and work, and work for 3 solid years to get to a point where she can quietly wait her turn to go in the ring (OK, we're still not there for first-runs-of-the-day). She used to lose her freaking mind just walking into a building or seeing dogs running, and was that way from 8 weeks of age on: screaming, flailing, utterly obvious to me. I have to confess, I have seriously contemplated getting a sporter collie (heresy, I know), just to get a dog from parents that are selected to handle this environment. Because logically, being born on a farm and raised in an outbuilding (like both my dogs were), from parents who never had to deal with an environment that noisy and visually stimulating, does not stack the odds in their favor. I know a lot of dogs in our area now, and there is a difference (more in the behavior outside the ring) between pure herding bred and sporting (or mixed use) bred dogs. I think it might be more in the raising, as dogs from herding lines bred by agility competitors or those who sell more to them do not have these issues. Bit of a quandary, if I want to continue supporting the breed as originally developed.

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