I guess I was rude, but I don't care. ;)

[kingfisher7151]

Dog park etiquette always confused the heck out of me. I'm talking short range, fenced in rumble park, not off leash trails. We'd have people who'd show up to a local one to walk the perimeter and would be super pissed if someone's dog approached them. My friend got his ass CHEWED out by an older couple who'd bring their 30 pounds overweight golden retriever. They'd bring a red ball which they'd throw and the old dog would amble over to it. Well, my friends Aussie walked over and brought back their red ball. Apparently that's a cardinal sin, or something.

 

I don't know, sometimes I think people take their dogs too seriously. Not safety stuff of course, but you know.

[geonni banner]

Not so much taking them too seriously, as being proprietary. If they took the dog seriously it wouldn't be so fat. If they knew anything about dogs he wouldn't be so fat.

 

It's my dog, my park, my rights, my beliefs.

 

The big, intact male who is showing hard eye contact, tail up, head level, ears forward, growling - he just wants to play! The owners are delusional. They think the dog they roll around on the sofa and rub his belly doesn't "have a mean bone in his body." They've never seen him gut a poodle. So naturally, he would never do it.

 

The Aussie that goes to pick up a thrown ball is "invading their space." Never mind that it's a public space. I never took anything but tennis balls to the dog park. If someone's feckless retriever ran off with it, no sweat. I have two more in my pocket. A dog park is no place to bring a favorite toy. Dogs get testy about these things sometimes. "Drop!" is a basic command for the dog park dog - or should be.

 

Dog parks are weird places. Full of weird, entitled people and poorly trained dogs. I quit going years ago. But the funny thing - I went to Pt. Isabel, twice a day, every day and in eight years I only saw two real fights. And in both cases, both combatants walked away. None of them were pit bulls - although there are dozens there every day. There would be a hundred dogs there on a weekend afternoon. And no fights - the odd curled lip, petulant snap, or squeal of outrage. But very little serious hostility.

 

Dogs generally have better sense than humans.

[Root Beer]

(Going way back to the original post - I only read that, not the whole discussion)

 

I think you handled it just fine. I would have done the same thing. Even a friendly dog can decide that enough is enough, and what a horrible experience for that smiling young girl if some dog turned and snapped on her dog for being rude.

 

Years ago, there was this Lab who kept sniffing Sammie's butt. Sammie, back in his younger days, was very dog friendly, and he tolerated it a little, but then decided he had enough. He very reasonably tried to turn and walk away. The dog moved back in to get back into his rear end. I asked the handler to give my dog some space. The handler continued to ignore the dog.

 

Sammie got fed up. He turned, lifted his leg, and peed right on that dog's head as the dog stuck his nose toward him.

 

The dog looked shocked, and then stayed away from Sammie after that. I don't think the handler even noticed. I said nothing. I would never have allowed it had the handler made the least effort to keep his dog in order.

 

As it was . . . I managed not to laugh out loud. I've laughed about it since, though . . .

[juliepoudrier]

I don't go to dog parks because I don't need to and also because of the general cluelessness of many owners, but I assume that some people use them because it's the ONLY place their dog can be legally off leash. Why assume that if they are playing fetch with THEIR dog that they don't mind if someone else's dog butts in? They may have NO choice but to be in that place if they want off leash play with THEIR dog.

 

I would find it extremely rude of someone to just let their dog get in the middle of my dog(s) and my play without at least asking first. I'd understand if the dog ran over once and snatched the ball, but after that I'd certainly expect the other dog's owner to call their dog back and let me continue my play with MY dog.

 

After all, if your dog really wants to play fetch, why aren't YOU actively playing fetch with him? Why let him interfere with other people's play with their dogs? Not trying to be mean here, but just because they are in a shared space doesn't mean they automatically want to interact with you or your dog (any more than you want to interact with them).

 

J.

[Root Beer]

The only place my dogs play fetch off leash around other dogs is at Dewey Beach. Every now and then a dog runs in and grabs one of our dog's toys. I have no problem with it as long as the dog's owner makes some attempt to get it from their dog and get it back to mine. I can't think of a time when that hasn't happened.

 

I bring enough toys to keep my dogs engaged and they don't go after what other dogs are playing with. If our stuff gets lost, as it sometimes does when we play by the ocean, and they start to look to other groups where toys are flying, we leave. I usually have at least one extra bumper or ball along so we don't end up in that situation.

[gcv-border]

I don't know how dog parks 'work', but from this discussion, it sounds like each one has its own culture - and that the culture/rules can change during the day depending on which group of owners and dogs have congregated.

 

Because I live rurally, I do not have to frequent dog parks. A couple of times I have met friends at a dog park, and I prefer to not interact with other dogs because I am not sure how MY dog would react. He can be snarky with some (mostly male) dogs.

 

When I lived in Philly (about 25 years ago), I HAD to go to the local park (no dedicated dog parks back then) to give my dog (Border Collie X Lab) any off-leash time where she could really run. I remember one sneaky looking dog - smaller shepherd mix? - who just didn't seem 'right' [even back then when I was very clueless about dog behavior]. She would sort of stalk the other dogs, but never actively aggress. One day, my dog was running about with a couple of other dogs, and the group came close to the stalker. That dog never moved, but as my dog passed her, she turned her head and bit at my passing dog, leaving a 4-5 inch gash in her side. I saw it happen, but no one else did. I called my dog to me to see what had happened to her, and then showed the owners what their dog had done. They said 'No way. She wasn't even close, and she is a friendly dog. She never fights with other dogs.' The other dog owners were never comfortable whenever that dog showed up either.

 

Regarding a dog taking over another dog's toy and/or barging into the middle of a game of fetch: Things happen. As others have said, after the first time, the dog shouldn't be allowed to continue unless the other owner (and dog) invite you in. It's the repeated actions that are rude.

 

I liked the purse analogy a previous poster used, so I suggest using a child analogy. If you were walking your child, and s/he ran into the middle of a game of fetch between a parent and a child, grabbed the ball and ran away, would you allow it to continue a second or third or fourth time as you walked past?

[moosikins]

Children shouldn't be left unattended with dogs, particularly large, strong dogs (regardless of breed) unless they know appropriate etiquette and how to introduce dogs.

 

I'd have had the same reaction and I don't think your reaction was rude.

 

We don't go to dog parks ever. It's too dangerous. Cal is too submissive and shows her belly...She just flops right over and an aggressive dog could literally gut her in seconds. I've never seen her sense of self preservation surface when she feels intimidated.

 

The closest we come to dog parks is a private community beach that's essentially become a dog park because all of the people that go there bring their pooches. However, we've found the crowd to be very responsible and unafraid to call the occasional oblivious owner out. It's usually a few friendly adolescent dogs that just get too intense. I've never seen it take more than one embarrassing "Hey, your dog is harassing mine, leash him!" for an owner to get their pup under control.

 

I always ask the following when trying to approach a new dog: Is your dog friendly? Can my dog say hello? My dog is an intense friend and she likes to sniff a LOT, is your dog okay with that? The ONLY dog we say hello to without a request in the street is a black lab that apparently hates all other dogs but LOVES my girl. Her owner drops her leash and I drop Cal's and they just RUN to each other and both enjoy it (the first time was a complete accident and they really enjoyed it).

[moosikins]

People dangle their kids over the barriers separating dangerous animals like lions, tigers, wolves and bears in zoos.

 

A woman dropped her toddler in the cheetah exhibit in the city where I live just last year. Moron...

[GentleLake]

Great post, Julie!

 

I recently went to a newer dog park in a neighboring county to see if it was any better than the others I've one to. Lovely, larger fenced park with a separate, smaller fenced area with permanent agility equipment.

 

I only took Bodhi because he's pretty bomb proof, but found it to have the same problems as other parks. I threw a tennis ball for Bodhi and about half a dozen unattended dogs rushed to catch it. Bodhi won't compete for a ball if another dog gets there first or tries to take it from him, so I ended up having to go halfway to the dropped ball, which by then none of the dogs wanted, and send Bodhi back for it. Same thing happened the second time, except that the golden who was being really obnoxious got more so and Bodhi came back with some golden fur in his mouth. It takes an awful lot for him to get to the point where he'll retaliate. Still no owners . . . well, except one beagle owner who leashed her dog after the first time and was talking to me when it happened.

 

So I didn't throw the ball any more and since Bodhi wasn't interested in interacting with any of them most of the other dogs dispersed. Except for one medium sized mixed breed -- looked like it may have been a bully type mix -- who incessantly stalked him and wouldn't get out of his face. No clue who she belonged to and after about 5 minutes of her harassing him (with no reaction from him other than to try to avoid her) I decided to leave. We went to the agility side where there was just one couple with their old GSD under the bench who wasn't coming out.

 

We won't be going back to that park again, unless maybe to see if the agility side is empty again.

[nancy]

OK, I've read only part of this thread. So slam me if I missed something pertinent. This post applies to only some of what I read.

 

I used to take Fergie (RIP) to the Komen Run and to Crop Walk. She had her own sponsors - including snakes and a goldfish. These are massive events. As we progressed, we would come up to other people with dogs. Most were great. But there we always a few who said, "Oh, keep your dog away! Mine isn't friendly." Are you crazy!?!? No, I never said that - but I sure thought it. You take a dog who is unfriendly or uncomfortable to a crowd? Heck, I don't take Dixie these days. Not because she is unfriendly, sensitive, or uncomfortable. Because she loves everyone - especially young boys. Way too much. Granted, most boys also love her. But parents are often a tad worried.

 

If I had a dog who was not happy to just schmoose with other dogs - maybe then decide to romp if it were mutual - I would not take my dog where it would meet a dog who was. Especially if any were off leash.

[CptJack]

...there is a big difference between dogs who are uncomfortable, unhappy, dangerous, or out of control in a public setting and a dog who needs not to have another dog walking with its nose buried in its butt. Frankly, NO dogs should, in a dog event setting where dogs need to be on leash, be within reach of that kind of thing without owner permission. Ever. There's no reason for it, there's no excuse for it.

[Sekah]

I expect my dog to tolerate being in close proximity with other polite dogs. I do not expect her to infinitely tolerate rude or hyper aroused dogs. She will snark in those situations. I bring her just about everywhere with me, and she is quite often off-leash. I use a bit of foresight and management to circumvent potential problems. It is very, very, very rare for problems to actually occur.

 

If I'm out in public with her and approached by a dog too excitedly, I cue a sit and ask her to focus on me. Her unwavering focus and butt on the ground normally makes it pretty clear for people and other dogs without me having to be unduly rude.

 

If I'm in a park with other off leash dogs, I expect to be able to maintain a buffer between us and other strange dogs - with exceptions of occasional drive-by polite greetings. I expect to be able to play with her one on one despite other dogs being around. If the place is too small or chaotic to accommodate that, I don't go. But I do have decently high expectations of being able to work with her without excessive interruptions by other dogs & people.

 

With people, she's largely ambivalent and bombproof. Except for old men. She loooves older men for some reason.

[cwb3]

"Hi there!. . .Nice looking dog. . .can I kick it?!?"

[juliepoudrier]

Nancy,

Those dogs whose owners you think are crazy may have perfectly nice dogs but just don't want to be bothered by other people and their dogs. How many times have we read here of owners who, even when asked to call their dog, will simply say, "Oh he's friendly!" or "Oh, he only wants to play!" or something similar and never bother to honor the requestor's perfectly reasonable request to keep their dog back? No matter how hard one tries to get through to these people, sometimes the ONLY thing that will stop them (and thus their dog) is to say that one's own dog is unfriendly. I would say the same thing if I saw someone coming toward me and mine with a dog I had no wish for mine to interact with. Sometimes the only way to stop people is to warn them away from your dog by saying it's not nice.

 

So before you judge these folks consider that they are simply going to extremes to get other people and their dogs to just leave them alone. And remember that they are reacting to their own experiences, and even though I know you and Fergie were perfectly nice, people who don't know you don't know that.

 

I'll just say it. I like my own dogs. I don't always like or want to interact with the dogs of perfect strangers. I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.

 

J.

[Tommy Coyote]

I kind of agree with you, Nancy. If your dog really isn't good with people and kids and other dogs it probably is a lot safer to go where you can be alone. Because if you are out people and children are going to come up to you. They just do. Children especially will just run up to see the dog. But that's my opinion.

[GentleLake]

No matter how hard one tries to get through to these people, sometimes the ONLY thing that will stop them (and thus their dog) is to say that one's own dog is unfriendly....Sometimes the only way to stop people is to warn them away from your dog by saying it's not nice.

 

And sometimes even that doesn't work.

 

I'm remembering a time when an unleashed Lab was charging my leashed fear reactive lurcher. My dog was clearly unfriendly as I was holding her off her feet by the chest and collar while she was going insane while the guy made no attempt to call his dog off or even to hurry up and get closer, all the while calling out, "She's friendly."

 

WTF!? I had to start screaming "She's not! Call your damn dog off NOW!!" before he figured out I was serious. By that time his dog was about 2 feet from us and Tansy was loosing her mind.

 

People are effin' idiots.

[Liz P]

Having trained and rehabilitated an extremely fearful/reactive dog, I can tell you that finding public places to work on training and counter conditioning with such a dog is virtually impossible. There are idiots everywhere who think that the off leash rule does not apply to them and that furthermore, it's ok to let their dogs run up to you. With a truly reactive dog, it is exhausting to take your dog off your property for anything, but in many cases you have no choice (vet visits, moving, traveling, etc).

 

My own dog would start to react several hundred YARDS away from a new person or dog. At first I tried to go to areas that had very strict leash rules, especially those that were regularly patrolled by police or rangers. Didn't work. There were still people with loose dogs that would rush up to anything they saw. For a period of about a year, I had no choice but to live in an apartment with that dog. It was hell. Just taking him out to go to the bathroom was an emotional roller coaster ride. I tried to take him out when other building residents were less likely to be walking their dogs. I would make sure the coast was clear before turning any corner or going through any door. If I saw someone, I had to retreat to avoid getting anywhere near them. The ONLY place I had to let my dogs run off leash was an unofficial dog park. So guess when I walked my dogs? Around midnight, because no other person was dumb enough to be there at that hour. It wasn't safe, but I had no other option.

[nancy]

It's one thing walking in the neighborhood , in Eno River State Park, or on the American Tobacco Trail. There, I expect other dogs to be kept apart from mine unless we all agree that the pups can schmooze or romp.

 

But to take a dog that isn't comfortable - or polite - with people or dogs to big, crowded events like Crop Walk (we get several thousand walkers) or a City Fest? Honestly, is that not ruder than one dog sniffing another?

 

Of course, we have seen service dogs at such events. And, as it is clear that they are working, we let them do their jobs. But I have seen at least one snappy dog try to dominate a service dog at a crowded event. "he doesn't like other dogs," was significantly less than an excuse.

[Liz P]

Nancy, if a dog is completely fine (quiet, polite, non aggressive) in public until another dog engages in unwanted advances such as shoving their nose up said dog's rear, pouncing on them, getting in their face, etc, who is the one being rude? The person who lets their dog be a jerk or the dog whose dog defends its personal space?

[nancy]

I'm talking about people who bring a dog into a large crowd, then tell me to keep my incredibly polite dog away because theirs doesn't like other dogs. That was Fergie, who would even sit and wait for the other dog to come to meet her!

 

Dixie is another story. We have yet to get her to have dependable manners. She doesn't jump to romp with other dogs - but she sort of romps in place until the other dog joins in. And stops if the other does doesn't. But it often upsets other owners. Even if we are on the other side of the street when this goes on. So we don't take Dixie to crowds - or anywhere off leash except in our kids' homes.

[CptJack]

I have one dog who is really reactive and has trouble in some settings. I wouldn't take her to such an event - she has no business being there and nothing would be gained. In fact, a lot of harm might be done.

Conversely, I have another dog who just doesn't like having her space invaded by people or dogs. If a child grabbed her, she would not bite them but she would be unhappy and probably shut down and miserable. If another dog invaded her space, stood over her, pawed her, or tried to stuff a nose up her butt for a sniff, she would probably give a warning snap and that would be the end of it (on her end).

To me, that dog is FINE in public and to be in public events of any size. I see NO REASON she should have to tolerate that sort of rudeness from children or dogs, though, so yes, if I see it coming I'm going to say 'she's not good with them' and expect them to back the HECK off. She is no threat to the public or their dogs, I see no reason to let the public or other dogs be a threat to her. Nor to keep her home and from having fun so no one has to hear that their precious FiFi (child or dog) can't do what they want with her. Even in a crowd 'don't touch my dog and don't let your dog make physical contact with mine' is not really a hardship.

 

And the snappy dog with the service dog? That situation would have also been resolved by "Don't let your dog interact with other dogs" as easily as any other situation.

[CptJack]

What hardship is it for you, precisely, to have someone else say 'I don't want my dog to interact with yours?' using whatever shorthand they want to keep you and your dog (who is unknown to them, regardless of manners) away?

 

Even with my crazy friendly dogs, I don't want them interacting with strange's dogs! I don't know the dog. I don't know the owner. They may be vaccinated, they may not be. They may be good with dogs, they may not be. They may have kennel cough, they may not. They may dogs who respond well to basic corrections (from another dog), they may not. They may be dogs who's playstyle matches my dog's, they may not. They may have sane owners, they may not.

 

And the words 'not good with' may very well come out of my mouth as a means of convincing you (general) to keep your dog WITH YOU and away from mine. I'm not there for a doggie playdate. I'm there for something else - to work with my dog, to attend a walk, to jog, to do agility, whatever, but it's not for the purpose of doggie meet and greets with random dogs. Just keep your dog beside you and MOVE ON.

[geonni banner]

I am in total sympathy with those who don't want other dogs running up to, pawing, or poking their nose up their dogs' butts. My dog is not comfortable with such behavior, and even if she was, I'm very offended by it. I can keep my dog from being a jerk - even with mobility issues and an anxiety disorder. Don't have much patience with other dog-owners who can't or won't.

 

If a dog has issues, you have to take them out to where the stimulus is, to get them desensitized, bit by bit. Not everyone has the same options for getting around, and I don't feel that not having a car should mean I can't take my dog out close to home. To say to me, "Oh! Your dog has issues! You shouldn't bring her out" is both incorrect and asinine.

 

Issues or not, my dog does as she's told, has a solid sit and does not interfere with either people or dogs unless invited to. I don't think that's too much to ask from any dog. If Sugar can do it, any dog should be able to. It takes time and work, but how are you supposed to bring a dog to that point if you can't take it out and expose it to stress in small increments until it is comfortable?

 

To be told by the owner of some feckless, lunging idiot of a retriever, or a screeching snapping Chihuahua that my dog "shouldn't be allowed out", while she is doing a quiet sit-stay it the height of idiocy. And I have no problem telling them so. I don't care if it's not their dog's fault that they were brought up so poorly. After fair warning I will defend my dog with whatever means I find necessary.

[Liz P]

I was in a situation of competing in an event at a public park. For about a half hour we wandered through the crowd, checking out the booths that had been set up by vendors for the event. My dog ignored all the dogs we passed, even those that came within a foot of him. Later I was sitting with my dog on the grass watching the other competitors. A woman sat down next to me with her kids and dog. At one point her dog was less than a foot away from mine. Both dogs were quietly watching the competition and there was no issue. Occasionally they would glance at one another, but neither made a move to invade space. Both were content to watch the action.

 

A guy came along and let his dog rush to the end of it's flexi lead, getting right into my dog's face. My dog grumbled and snapped, but did not make contact. Guy with dog on flexi was huffy, said I should not have been there if my dog didn't like friendly dogs. A little while later a guy let his Great Dane meander over and stand over me and my dog. I physically pushed the dog away and asked him to please keep his dog under tighter control. Guy looked genuinely confused as to why I would not want his friendly dog standing over mine. A woman let her terrier drag her straight for me. Terrier was almost in my dog's face when she finally asks if her dog can say hello. I said no thanks. She looked shocked and hurt. Seriously. She seemed really upset that her dog couldn't get in my dog's face.

 

Now, my dog is not aggressive, but he likes his personal space unless he decides to engage in play. He is capable of standing or sitting mere inches from other neutral dogs. Should he have not been at that event?

[GentleLake]

Yes to the above three posts!

 

In the situation I described at the dog park, Bodhi was unleashed and completely under my voice control. The only incident was when he drove away the obnoxious unattended golden who wouldn't leave him alone, and not even the first time the dog rushed him at that. He even tolerated the unattended bully mix who was stalking him, though he clearly didn't want to be interacting with that dog. I would have had a few words for both of those dogs' owners if I'd been able to find anyone responsible for them.

 

Nancy, which dog shouldn't have been there, mine or the golden?