Getting Along

[chene]

So, I recently moved in to a new place with room-mates that have an 8 month old un-neutered male mini aussie, quite timid, very friendly, docked tail, not great at responding to canine body language but decent at it. Aed does not like him. I don't know why. Maybe the age, maybe the tail, maybe the temperament, maybe something I did wrong. As soon as they met (in a lobby, neutral territory, not very confined but still inside) he snarled and charged at Wes, the aussie. He did it twice before I managed to separate him. He "put Wes in his place", and growled every time Wes tried to approach or play, but was fine if Wes ignored him. Guarded toys, water, etc against Wes. Aed is totally fine with other dogs but something about Wes bothers him. Another dog on the floor, a 1.5 year old golden retriever, is Wes's best friend, and Aed is more tolerant of him but won't play with him either and snarled him off when Jeter (the golden) approached too rambunctiously today. I've been keeping Aed separate in my room and trying to facilitate positive interactions but no luck yet. He happily played at the park with all the other dogs, just not Wes or Jeter. Any ideas?

[Maralynn]

If he's generally comfortable and fine with other dogs then I would have probably given him a "knock it off" correction. And then kept them separated. My dogs don't have to interact with other dogs but they can't be jerks either.

[chene]

The last two times (once with Wes, once with Jeter) it happened I just picked him up by his armpits and removed him from the situation, which is how they corrected unacceptable behavior in his puppy socialization classes and we've used ever since. It didn't seem to make much difference. Should I do something else?

 

He's totally fine as long as Wes isn't interacting with him, but as soon as Wes tries he gets growled/snarled/lip curled at. I guess my biggest question is, is it just a matter of waiting, or should I be doing more?

[GentleLake]

If that's all he's doing now I think he probably just needs some time to get used to sharing the space with him. I'd redirect him when he does thins and move him further away, and I'd reward for any positive, even neutral, behavior towards Wes. DS/CC can help to change his emotional response to being around Wes.

 

Doing anything negative is just likely to convince Aed that he has good reason to dislike Wes because when he's around him bad things happen.

 

In the meantime, I'd ask the roommates to reward Wes for keeping his distance and redirect him if necessary.

 

Keeping them separated until they get used to the fact that they'll be sharing their space all the time is also a good thing, keeping them at least as far apart as you know Aed's comfortable with.

[chene]

Okay. I was going to maybe do some counter-conditioning with hot dogs until he's excited to see Wes, do you think it's worth it? I'm happy to wait until they get along, but my room-mates are understandably worried about their timid pup.

[geonni banner]

I agree about the "knock it off" business, but that still leaves the issue of why is it happening.

 

My Sugarfoot came to me with an issue with Huskys. I have made it clear that she needs to be civil, and she is, if the husky doesn't push it.

 

But she doesn't like little dogs that scream and run at her, (who does?) or pit bulls, or retrievers either. These prejudices developed over time, and I feel that I must be responsible for cueing hostilities. I detest little dogs that scream and run at me/her, and am put off by retrievers, with their "hail fellow, well met" over-friendliness. I try to be friendly - at least with the retrievers, but I'm afraid my true feelings must be apparent to my dog. And try as I might, I just can't seem to like pit bulls. I have known many nice ones, but I have never warmed to the breed. I try to set Sugarfoot up for success with retrievers and pit bulls, by having her meet friendly ones in neutral locations, but whatever it is I'm doing, makes it necessary to be careful with Sugar. Interestingly, she has no such breed prejudices when she goes out with the dog-walker. (Except for huskies. But even then, it rarely escalates to more than posturing.)

 

This is, I know, a failing on my part. But one I'm having trouble getting a handle on. Sugar has always been more of a people dog than a dog dog. Maid is just the opposite. Last week I set up a play date with a very well-behaved and friendly husky, and they had a gorgeous romp. She has not yet met a dog she didn't like.

 

I don't know about you, but in your shoes I would be felling a little stressed. Moving is tough, and a lot may be riding on whether these two can get along. If you have someone that you trust to handle your dog, maybe you should try getting your dog and the mini-Aussie to meet somewhere without you in the picture, and see how that goes. It's worth a try, just to confirm or rule out your effect on the situation.

[chene]

Yeah, it's definitely a possibility. I was probably worrying about how they'd get along in the first place. We tried leaving him for a little while with Wes's owners in the new place, and it didn't make any difference, but the other dog's owners in the other dog's house isn't exactly an ideal neutral setting. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

[GentleLake]

I was going to maybe do some counter-conditioning with hot dogs until he's excited to see Wes, do you think it's worth it?

 

I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't think it was worth trying.

[Maralynn]

You might wait a couple days and just let his decompress if possible.

 

I agree with counter conditioning as long as it's not an active aggression issue (like mentioned in the first post). Active aggression is a lot different than "leave me alone" (which seems to be the main issue now?).

[CptJack]

A lot of dogs really, really hate timid dogs. I don't know what it is, but it's like they just get under their skin. I own one of those dogs (my RT). He's not fearful just very, very 'submissive' and meek with other dogs. For whatever reason, it makes other dogs want to take him to the cleaners.

Best thing I've found for handling it at home is actually less CC and DS and more 'that's not flying here'. It's not dog aggression, though, it's "Jack's a push over and will let himself be bullied" so. Yeah, no.

 

I'd try DS/CC first, I'm just throwing it out there because I think it can be useful to know that it happens.

[Maralynn]

My responses are in light of having a dog twice Kenzi's size randomly decide to go beat her up. Young male who was being a jerk. We were at a multi team SAR training event and Kenzi was several feet away just listening to me. Thankfully a team mate jumped in, grabbed the other dog and effectively told him off. Young males can be obnoxious. Not saying that Aed is, but I have a no tolerance policy for jerk behavior. I do have lots of patience for desensitizing and counter conditioning if the dog just needs to adjust and isn't a general jerk.

 

So I think it's important to read your dog and respond accordingly

[chene]

You might wait a couple days and just let his decompress if possible.

 

I agree with counter conditioning as long as it's not an active aggression issue (like mentioned in the first post). Active aggression is a lot different than "leave me alone" (which seems to be the main issue now?).

 

I guess I phrased it weirdly. They approached each other, got close, and then Aed snarled him off when he tried to sniff. I think. Honestly it's hard to remember. It wasn't like Aed just saw him and charged though. So I think it was still more of a "don't get close to me" thing, just more intense. Whatever it was it's certainly not active aggression now.

 

I'm a little uncertain on how to tell him to knock it off without just contributing to his negative excitement (for lack of a better term). I said "Aed!" sharply one of the times and immediately realized that it ended up basically just sounding like more barking/snarling amidst it all.

 

I'm going to give the hot dog thing a shot this evening. I'll update back on how it goes. Thanks for the input guys.

[chene]

I'm hesitant to label him a jerk when maybe he's just uncertain or anxious or something, but he does have a history of over-doing it on the dominance thing. Like

 

"okay guys, I'm the boss here."

"okay, sure thing."

"I'M THE BOSS I'M THE BOSS I'M THE BOSS!"

"I know, I'm submitting to you, please stop chasing me!"

 

kind of thing.

But then maybe Wes is actually teasing him or not submitting or something and I'm just not catching it. Who knows?

EDIT: I feel like he's really stressed out, though. And Wes just walked by the bedroom door and I got excited and said "who's that?" and Aed just stiffened and growled. I don't know what it is that's setting him off...

[CptJack]

I think Maralynn nailed it with 'read your dog'.

Kylie hung out with a bunch of dogs, today. She never, once, even thought about charging at any of them. She did however 'correct' (read: snap) at 2. One was an over the top young Brit. spaniel who was pawing at her, and the other was a really pushy/enthusiastic (though very sweet) youngish lab mix pup. Neither of those dogs was a bad or aggressive dog, and that's not what I'm saying at all. They were GREAT dogs, and honestly Kylie's never really given any puppy much of a puppy license.

They were just more than she could/would/wanted to handle and Kylie handled it in a way that was the least amount of effective force. Ie: she snapped toward them, made no contact, and that was that. She didn't continue to go after them, she didn't rush or charge. She snapped, they backed off (and/or humans intervened) and she went back to minding her own business.

 

Molly, reactive as she is, will not charge *at* another dog. She'll lunge and growl and bark, but if she's off leash and they come toward her she *runs away*, or does the same sort of 'back off and give me some room!' type correction. Do I trust her entirely? No.

Does your dog being more forward mean he's NOT uncomfortable? No. Just that, like you said, maybe he's over the top.

And frankly CC/DS could help him behave more appropriately regardless.

I will say, though, that I would definitely not be leaving these two without supervision, ever.

[CptJack]

Re: Your edit:

What is Wes actually doing after Wes growls/snarls/snaps/whatever?

[chene]

Ditto to the supervision, of course. I can usually read Aed pretty well. I know he snarled at Jeter because Jeter was too rambunctious for him. What I don't know is why, Aed usually being the rambunctious dog, suddenly another dog was too much. I know that Aed is insecure about Wes. What I don't know is why.

[chene]

Re: my edit:

 

He's looking at Aed, I think, is the problem.

[chene]

Actually, now that I watch, he's staring. Unbroken stare. No wonder Aed is uncomfortable. What should I do about it? Just redirect Wes?

[CptJack]

Yep. Sounds like you nailed it.

This? This is why Molly REALLY DOES NOT LIKE OTHER HERDING BREEDS. They stare, and she LOSES HER CRAP.

 

Actually, now that I watch, he's staring. Unbroken stare. No wonder Aed is uncomfortable. What should I do about it? Just redirect Wes?

[chene]

Thank you. For some reason just asking that simple question of me was really helpful. I'll pay attention for the staring for the next little while. Wes seems to be pretty obsessed with Aed. He really, really wants to be friends, he tries every once in a while (very politely) to play.

[CptJack]

You're welcome. It's something I noticed with Molly. Other herding breeds (and she!) stare at things that they really, really like and want. Sadly, when that's another dog it tends to go over like a ton of bricks, especially when the dog is uncomfortable to start with.

 

I missed your what to do question, but yeah. Redirect either or both of them as much as you can. Frankly, for me, I still manage my dog. Which means I make her give up caring. It's a pain, but I don't own both dogs in the equation, ever, so all I can really do is make her break eyecontact and do something else. Or make it impossible for the other dog to stare in her face, by whatever means I have available (turning her around, leaving, standing between them) until she refocuses.

[chene]

Fair enough. I'll see what I can do. While I've got you here, do you have any advice on this:

I'm a little uncertain on how to tell him to knock it off without just contributing to his negative excitement (for lack of a better term). I said "Aed!" sharply one of the times and immediately realized that it ended up basically just sounding like more barking/snarling amidst it all.

[CptJack]

Basically, I would probably wave food under his nose, squeak a toy, create distance, whatever it takes to get him into a position where he can take his attention off Wes and put it onto you. Then reward him with the food or toy. Eventually you can progress to asking for simple behaviors (look at you, sit, whatever) and reward for THAT, instead of just the shift in attention/being quiet.

 

Basically, just make your training goal for now 'ignore Wes' and work toward making Wes as irrelevant to him as you possibly can. And the reverse, if at all possible/roommate is willing. It'll probably take some of the conflict out of the picture.

[chene]

Welp. Aed met Jeter + ball outside and fell in love. We're on the right track.

[kingfisher7151]

I'm curious, is Aed still intact?

 

I ask because I've had a similar problem with Keeper. He gets along with EVERYBODY. Like, dogs who have *never* played with others gravitate to him.

 

There have been a grand total of 3 dogs who Keeper gave absolutely out of the blue ugliness. And I mean from first sight. Instant hackles, growls, whale eyes, the works. And all 3 were very well behaved, moderate temperament dogs.

 

It wasn't until months afterward that I realized all 3 were intact male dogs. Keeper is also intact. Even after these months he still isn't happy about these 3 dogs, 2 border collies and a papillon. I don't give a rat's ass whether or not they're intact, Keeper isn't allowed to be an intact, adolescent jerk. He's looking at the great snip snip if he's going to try to have problems with other intact males. He's met plenty of them without batting an eye, but I think it's probably more than a coincidence that the only dogs he's gotten ugly with were also intact.

 

That said, I make no excuses for his behavior. I absolutely will not tolerate nasty behavior, so we've been working with similar methods as listed above. The only thing worse than a nasty intact dog is a nasty stud horse.

 

So yeah, is he intact?