What makes a border collie a border collie? Help.

[SKYWALKER]

Hello board folks,

 

Sounds like a weird question, but I've been a little confused about my recent adopted 8 year old BC. He has ABCA papers with lineage. And came from a BC rescue that is highly respected. And of course I'm not doubting either. But other people are.

 

Most people we meet on walks invariably say something like 'Wow, what a nice looking cattle dog!' or 'Isn't he one of those Australian cattle dogs?' etc. Two vets, despite seeing the papers, have also said he does not have seem like a pure border collie and said something to the effect about 'grey' areas in breeding based on behavioral traits and not necessarily appearance.. I didn't really care and still don't.

 

When running in open fields with other dogs, he hides in the grass and watches and waits to corral and is otherwise constantly herding, chasing running things in circles and so there is no doubt he is a herding dog. Very smart and sweet. Energetic still at 8, folks don't believe how old he is.

 

Bottom line, is I don't really care at all if he is a purebred BC or a mix from whatever breeds - it's just a curiosity stemming from 8 out of 10 people thinking he's an Australian cattle dog.

 

I've got wisdom panel DNA tests pending - but understand that's only 90% accurate.

 

After researching that test - it appears the issue is pretty complex when it comes to breeds and traits and DNA testing.

 

Again, it's just a curiosity, I'm not hung up on it - just a little perplexed. I imagine he might just be a unique BC that doesn't follow the traditional appearance.

 

Anybody else have similar experiences? Attached are a few photos of Luke.

 

 

[Liz P]

Aside from needing to lose a bunch of weight, he looks like a Border Collie to me.

 

Many people get caught up in the KC mentality that a dog must fit a narrow physical standard to be a purebred. With Border Collies, they are bred for work and looks don't matter. They come in virtually every color and coat type known to dogs. They also come in different shapes and sizes. What defines them is their style of work.

[Cass C]

I think it's the being overweight that gets people, as Australian cattle dogs tend to be on the more bulky side of herding dogs often confused with being an overweight herding dog.

[SKYWALKER]

So, he was at 61 pounds when I got him, down from 66+ when he was kept in a pen and/or crate at his former home and thanks to the rescue for getting him running again. Now he is at 56 after 2 months with me. But he is built solid with a large rib cage. The vet says based on feeling the fat around his ribs that he should need another 5 pounds, max. So a few more months and he should be back to a healthy weight. But unlike the other much slimmer border collies he meets, Luke is a tank. Could be because he grew up in confined spaces, not sure. I know they come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. My science mind was just curious about how appearance/behavior/genetics combine to create what we call breeds.

[denice]

Honestly most people in the general public do picture in their mind a black and white longer coated dog when you mention border collie. Honestly I see much more variation in appearance now than I did even 10 years ago. A tri folks think as a shepherd especially if they are smooth coats and prick ears. Ticking throws them off also, not so much with a b/w but others do for sure. I have a girl from my last litter that is a tri mottled fold down ears. OMG if you were to ask 1000 people what breed she is I doubt very few would cay bc, watch her work there is no mistake. Of course they might think she is one of the most talented cattle dogs Ever:) If I can figure out pictures I will post a couple. Ivy has both black ticking them tan ticking on her lower legs which is hard to see in the photos. Since I have both parents parents and watched them breed and was there when she was born I can assure you she is 100% bc but honestly I have seen one quite like her.

[Maralynn]

I wouldn't disagree with your vet just from a photograph, but I'd be really surprised if he was at an idea weight in just 5 more pounds.

 

The stocky, ticked look says "cattle dog" to many people. If he was a stray then I'd think cattle dog cross before border collie. Even though border collies absolutely come in that look. I've got a smooth prick ear dog but he has traditional markings so no one disagrees with me when I tell them his breed. My last boy was smaller, white factored and tri. Didn't get many people thinking he was a border collie.

[kingfisher7151]

I think I, too, would guess cattle dog first. And I'm well versed in the many looks of a border collie.

 

When he's at a healthy weight I'll bet less people will guess ACD. I'd be SHOCKED if he only had 5 lbs to lose. He looks like the build that holds more fat around his neck and shoulders, rather than his waist and ribs. We adopted a dog who was overweight as well, I know how hard it is to control it! I thought he'd have maybe 3 or 4 lbs to lose, and now 10 lbs later he's finally at a good weight. And he's now 28 lbs, 10 lbs is a lot for a little dog! It's hard to picture a large dog losing 10, 15, 20 lbs. That is, until you watch the inner puppy get released as they start feeling so much better! But a 7 lb loss after 2 months is a pretty good rate, you don't want them dropping weight too quickly. I'm sure you're on the right track!

[GentleLake]

I also see an overweight, smooth coated, pretty heavily ticked red border collie. I'm pretty sure I'd see that even if you hadn't mentioned knowing his breeding, though I'll admit I've seen some mixes who look purebred (and I have a hard time telling a lot of Springer spaniel mixes from border collies without taking a very good look at the ear set) and some purebreds who look like mixes. But if you have the papers, I wouldn't have any hesitation at all in trusting them.

 

I used to have a little, smooth coated, barrel chested, pretty heavily ticked girl who I'm sure a lot of people thought was an ACD mix as well. But she wasn't and the work proved she was a border collie through and through.

 

People are so used to understanding dogs' breeds in terms of appearance that most simply don't understand that there can be different criteria for breeding. And when those criteria result in a wider variety of appearances that must, necessarily resemble other similar breeds, it's not surprising that people will misidentify certain dogs. What's surprising to me is how resistant they can be when you show them evidence to the contrary.

 

BTW, very good job working on getting him to a healthy weight.

 

Two vets, despite seeing the papers, have also said he does not have seem like a pure border collie and said something to the effect about 'grey' areas in breeding based on behavioral traits and not necessarily appearance.

 

OK, first of all, vets aren't always breed experts. They can be just as confused as the average Joe about the variations among breeds, and the variations within breeds as anyone else. I respect vets for their expertise and training in medicine, but I'm always surprised how many people expect them to know everything there is to know about animals, or at least dogs and cats. Most have very limited training in behavior and in breeds, so I don't expect my vets to be experts in these areas. If I need help with behavior issues I'll look for a good trainer or a veterinary behaviorist (who does have additional expertise in behavior) for help.

 

And what the heck did the vet(s) mean by "'grey' areas in breeding based on behavioral traits and not necessarily appearance"? What's unclear or imprecise about breeding for behavioral traits over appearance? It just goes to show how inculcated most people are to the concept of breeds being defined by appearance rather than function.

 

I'd really like to talk to that vets (or those vets) about what she/he/they meant by it.

 

Enjoy your border collie. . . . and don't worry about the naysayers. You know better.

[Laurelin]

General public is really weird about breed guesses. I got border collie often with one of my shelties. My papillons get chihuahua, cavalier, and pomeranian a lot. I even had one lady insist they were shih tzu mixes. My mutt is the worst. He APPEARS to be a cattle dog x terrier but people insist he's everything under the sun. In fact last night a guy was going on about how he was sure he was a hound x german shepherd. (???)

 

If your dog has papers then I would just tell them that. I basically just smile and nod whenever someone tells me what my rescue must be.

 

But for a lot of people the ticking will make them think cattle dog.

[borasaurus]

Yea, could just be the ignorance of the general public. The other day I was explaining the difference to my friend between a conformation border collie and a working one. I showed her some pictures and she was shocked.

 

On the note of rescues, so many people ask me what kind of dog Kieran is and say how beautiful he looks. Whenever I look at him, I just see a dopey looking dog, lol. I think it's because they don't have to deal with this:

And he's asleep in that picture.

[GentleLake]

Oh, forgot to add . . .

 

In answer to your subject heading question, it's the work. Plain and simple. These dogs wouldn't be what they are without that focus on breeding for the work and not what they look like.

 

People are always taken aback when I tell them that Bodhi is a lousy border collie. He's a beautiful dog, mannerly and a great therapy dog. But he doesn't work. In all fairness to him, he was only ever put to sheep one time, shortly after I adopted him. A former stray, he was still regaining his confidence and it was someone other than me who took him into the paddock. He was more worried about getting back to mom than he was in paying attention to anything else, so I can't honestly say he's had a fair trial at it. But I've always suspected he was bred by a color oriented basically puppy mill breeder not too far from where he was picked up, so probably not working bred.

 

But it gives me an opening to tell people what a border collie does is what he or she is, and how breeding for appearance is not the be all and end all to dog breeds. It's interesting watching people grapple with the concept, and every once in a while someone actually gets it.

[Debbie Meier]

Looks like our Tory with more white and heavier ticking and over weight, Border Collie. Link to her photo http://leaningtreestockdogs.com/dogs/Tory/IMG_8629.JPG

 

 

If you share his pedigree some here may be able to show you relatives that resemble him.

 

Would be looking for him to be in the neighborhood of 45 lbs in fit condition.

[geonni banner]

I agree with those who think he has a lot more than 5lbs to lose. I think Debbie Meier has it right. He needs to be lots thinner. He'll thank you for it, especially in hot weather. And his joints will thank you too. When you get him down to a good weight, be prepared to hear about how skinny he is and how "you must be starving him."

 

I get it all the time about my new girl, a ropy 9 mo old. When people find out I just got her they say, "Oh! The poor thing! They must have starved her!" She's skinny, but not unhealthily so.

[simba]

Sometimes I reckon that with a short-coated dog, if you don't occasionally get people stopping you to berate you for starving your dog, it is probably too fat. I'm a cynic, I know.

[Debbie Meier]

Like to see them lean and muscular, "ripped", muscle definition from front to back with nice tuck leading up into their flank, also muscle over their back.

 

Believe it or not, this dog is a couch potato, though some lines are less muscled then others naturally https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11223310_948654855177930_8478530314046147029_n.jpg?oh=a1f7a49c27a18d52004344785cf41a83&oe=567E4DBA

[Gloria Atwater]

....

 

Bottom line, is I don't really care at all if he is a purebred BC or a mix from whatever breeds - it's just a curiosity stemming from 8 out of 10 people thinking he's an Australian cattle dog.

 

I've got wisdom panel DNA tests pending - but understand that's only 90% accurate.

 

After researching that test - it appears the issue is pretty complex when it comes to breeds and traits and DNA testing.

 

Again, it's just a curiosity, I'm not hung up on it - just a little perplexed. I imagine he might just be a unique BC that doesn't follow the traditional appearance.

 

Anybody else have similar experiences?

 

 

Honestly, there are a whole lot of people out there who don't realize that border collies ever look like anything but the stereotypical dog they see on TV. (Example attached.)

 

And they just don't get that border collies come in many different physical types, coats, ear sets and colors. My 10 and a half month old female looks like a cross between a hound and a whippet! (Example also attached.)

 

So, I wouldn't put much stock in what people say. He looks like a border collie to me, albeit a pretty chubby one. Good work getting him down from his old weight! But I think your vet is used to seeing nothing but pet dogs, because I see more than 5 pounds yet to go. When you can see a neat tummy tuck from the side and a defined waist when viewed from above, you're getting there. Think athlete, not couch potato.

 

Cute dude!

 

~ Gloria

[simba]

Ooh, one helpful thing is to search 'weight' or suchlike to look for old threads. Then you can see a load of pictures of dogs at a good weight with different body types and coat lengths.

[urge to herd]

I got my first bc in 1997, when even more of the general public were of the black and white and fluffy makes a border collie mindset.

 

Samantha was a gorgeous red tri, with lovely golden eyes. Had several people tell me that she couldn't possibly be a border collie, she was probably an Australian Shepherd. More than one got a little heated about it. Even now, with Gibbs and his black/white w/tan splotches, people look askance.

 

I ignore them.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[juliepoudrier]

I have a dog who is heavily built in the front, deep chested, big ruff around her neck (even as a smooth coat). She's an easy keeper and now that she's retired I have to work to keep her from getting too fat. This is not a great photo of her, but she looks like a thinner version of your dog.

 

Twist is the one lying down on the left. The heavily ticked medium coated dog and the white dog are her puppies (they are littermates). The little dark tri standing behind her is related to her. The tri puppy lying next to her is not related.

 

Color her red, and she'd look very similar to your dog. She has other relatives who were red and were more heavily built. I would have no trouble with accepting your dog as a border collie. I agree that he could probably stand to lose more than what the vet says he should lose.

 

BTW, these are all working bred dogs.

 

J.

[SKYWALKER]

Thanks everybody!. Just an hour ago I got the whole "neat looking cattle dog!" comment. Funny. Very helpful to see other BCs with similar appearance. And advice well taken on Luke needing to loose more than 5 pounds going forward. I was able to see from a vet record when he was 2 years old that he was at 45 pounds, and he is 8 now. Will focus on getting him down to 50 and go from there. Somebody also mentioned posting the lineage in case there were any relatives here on the boards that might post any info. See below for that.

[Gideon's girl]

The wedge head and small triangle ears are probably what people are keying in on, but Border Collies can have those too, and your Luke is not a typical ACD color at all.

 

Many vets are so used to looking at overweight dogs that they just come to accept it and when giving recommendations for weight loss, they recommend the least that need to be lost, not the best weight for the dog. They generally assume that the owners aren't going to take the weight off the dog anyways. Border Collies are supposed to be athletes, so they should be lean and muscular. People should be commenting on how thin he is, just like they do for runners.

 

Good luck with him and thank you for rescuing!

[GentleLake]

Unless he was emaciated when he was 2, I wouldn't think his ideal weight now should be more than a couple pounds over his weight then.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

A lot of well known dogs, Dryden Joe, Wilson's Jet, Kuykendahl's Glen, ElBaff's Glen., Cropper's Cap The red may have come from Peg Brown who deliberately bred for red working dogs. Not the best idea and her dogs don't show up much in modern trialing bloodlines but the Browns were sheepmen and I imagine most of their dogs made useful farm and ranch dogs.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maralynn]

Unless he was emaciated when he was 2, I wouldn't think his ideal weight now should be more than a couple pounds over his weight then.

 

Yup. And also keep in mind that there's also a possibility that he was on the high end of normal then, too.

[SKYWALKER]

Dear Doggers,

A lot of well known dogs, Dryden Joe, Wilson's Jet, Kuykendahl's Glen, ElBaff's Glen., Cropper's Cap The red may have come from Peg Brown who deliberately bred for red working dogs. Not the best idea and her dogs don't show up much in modern trialing bloodlines but the Browns were sheepmen and I imagine most of their dogs made useful farm and ranch dogs.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Donald,

 

Thanks for that insight. Can't say it doesn't make me a little sad that he was pent up for most of his life - and knowing what might have been for him - a real working BC. Can't give him the life he should have had, but can make sure that for the rest of it he'll be healthier and happier and experiencing far more exercise and play and companionship then he ever had previously. This info, and the recommendations from others, helps fuel my fire to get his inner athlete/puppy as expressed as it can be, and even though he is eight now...