Jump to content
BC Boards

Sudden biting. Psychological issue?


Recommended Posts

Hi, everyone! I'm new here. I decided to reach out to a bc community in addition to working with our vet regarding some sudden changes in our boy's behavior, because I am quite concerned. I would appreciate some input.



A little background... We (my husband and I) got Declan at 5 1/2 weeks old (that's a whole other story that angers me). Right from the moment we met him we knew he was the insecure type and that we would have to work patiently with him. We socialized him well. He made huge progress very quickly and has been the greatest dog ever to bring to busy parks around strange dogs and people. We don't deal harshly with him, utilizing only verbal reprimands with positive reinforcement training, which he has always responded well to.


But here is the problem now. A little over a month ago (Declan was 7 months old) we moved to a new house (rather, we moved into my parents' house because we moved from another state and are residing here somewhat temporarily while we wait to purchase a new home). This home is much larger than our last, about 4,500 sqft., with an even bigger property than we previously had. During the move, we left Declan here for a couple weeks without us. Note that we had made trips here with him many times, so he is very comfortable with all of my family members and adores their springer spaniel. They experienced no issues with him during that time.


When we got back was when we started to see Declan's behavior change. He started to snarl, growl, and bite (no puncture) in a quick sequence when pet. He will tolerate being taken by the collar and moved around, he listens very well to commands, and he is still working happily for everything he gets (meals, treats, toys). He just will not tolerate being pet at certain times of day. He's less tolerant of some people, my father at the top of that intolerance list. He will do it to anyone, though, if in a bad enough mood.


I think what I find most bizarre is that nobody provokes him. He comes up wagging his tail right to the person, who then, of course, pets him, and then he snarls, growls, and snaps. A second after, he is giving that person kisses and wagging his tail again. What is that?


We didn't waste time getting him to our incredible vet. The vet tested him for everything--pain, thyroid, etc.--all negative. He suggested we give him tranquilizers during an upcoming, multi-day family reunion (now past) to hopefully avoid any anxiety he might feel and any bad behavior, and he also put him on an antidepressant to see if that would help. The tranquilizer made the behavior worse without a doubt, and no signs of change from the antidepressant so far (it's been about 2 weeks).

I've been suspicious that it is linked somehow to his constant activity since moving here. He would play with his spaniel buddy hard all day if we let him. We now separate him for at least 4 hours out of the day and in the evening to settle, and he sleeps almost the whole time. That seemed to make a difference for a while, he is definitely worse when he is tired. Today, out of the blue, he snapped again when I was petting him, after he had come up between my legs, tail wagging.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what might be going on? My greatest fear is that this is an underlying aggression problem that is just now starting to show during this adolescent stage and we will have the lifelong struggle of handling, not curing, that.

I will also add the last note that he is crate-trained, neutered (as of 6 months), and given a lot of one-on-one work daily. He never nips either, just his "aggressive" bites.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Just a short note as I have to go and do barn chores.

 

My first thoughts are that he is in pain since his biting seems to coincide with petting. I would bring him to an ortho vet or certified rehab vet. They have more training than a general vet (however well-intentioned) to diagnose and treat orthopedic issues. There have been many stories here, and my own experience, of the general vet missing, or misdiagnosing, muscle or skeletal injuries which the ortho vet can identify.

 

I would also limit his play activity - with his springer friend and the disc - until he sees an ortho vet. He may just keep re-injuring himself.

 

Speaking of the disc, I am not sure what you mean. Are you throwing the disc for him? At this young age, he should not be jumping after a disc. His growth plates are not yet closed.

 

Another consideration may be that he is in a fear period. He is about the right age.

 

Of course, I am not a vet - just throwing out some random thoughts.

 

Good Luck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My first thought is pain. I know your vet has looked at him but maybe go deeper. If he and his dog friend play and run hard he very well might have some soft tissue injury or spine/neck out of alignment... Did you vet manipulate his limps and neck while he was awake. Like extend his limps, bend them, move neck up and down side to side ect. That is where I would I would begin. It may or may not be behavioral.

 

With him being that way with everyone I would think chances are good that he is pain. He wants to be socially but something is hurting him and he does not understand what or why. I might try some antinflammatories after the exam.

 

Xrays would by next step of his neck and spine and sent to a radiologist if your vet does not see anything

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pain was my initial "hope," I suppose, because that is probably an easier problem to address. That being said, the vet did manipulate him thoroughly with no reactions whatsoever. He doesn't seem to act like he's in pain at any time. I realize that pain could make him act out, even if it's not a localized touch, but the instances of his biting seem somewhat random. Most of the time he loves to be loved on and pet, then he turns. Most bites come after a very gentle touch too. No specific part of his body. Reminds me of a cat.

Also, to clarify, our disc training isn't strenuous. Right now it's a game of fetch with high reward. No jumping involved.

In response to Maralynn, he was on Acepromazine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I question the use of Ace, not a vet but I believe it does lower seizure thresholds and can make some more reactive.. Never liked it, I would think there are better options.

 

Ace does not calm fears it acts to prevent the dogs ability to react. The dog mentally and emotionally is the same - be that fearful or calm - but the dogs ability to move and react has been affected. I would say that is worse mentally for the dog because he is just as bothered by the stimuli but now does not have the motor skills to avoid it.

 

I would be careful in using mood altering or sedation drug until every possible route has been tried, especially in a pup.

 

Not to mention its is treating symptoms and not find the cause or treating the problem, never good in my book

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also still wonder about the possibility of some sort of as yet un-diagnosed pain issue, and perhaps even the possibility of something neurological.

 

Do you live close enough to a university veterinary hospital where you could take Declan for a consult?

 

My very best wishes for you. This has to be incredibly scary and frustrating for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't live close enough, unfortunately. There are none in the area. At the very least I might get a second opinion if the consensus seems to be a suspicion of something pain-related.

Thank you for your kind words. My greatest concern is just understanding what's going on so we can help him. Whatever the issue, if we can just pinpoint it, we'll deal with it however we need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My instinct is also "pain." I wonder if he hid his pain at the vet - my old dog could be entirely stoic at the vet and show no reaction to pain at all, but be the biggest wimp in the world at home. (I think he felt he was under attack at the vet, so couldn't let his guard down.)

 

I also wonder if something didn't happen when he stayed with your relatives - some weird coincidence that he remembers and no one else does. (Shock upon being pet? Stepped on accidentally while being pet?)

 

Keep paying attention to when the snapping happens, too! I've heard so many people say that their dogs' reactions seemed completely random, out of the blue, but when they were observed carefully, they followed very specific patterns.

 

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pain was my initial "hope," I suppose, because that is probably an easier problem to address. That being said, the vet did manipulate him thoroughly with no reactions whatsoever. He doesn't seem to act like he's in pain at any time. I realize that pain could make him act out, even if it's not a localized touch, but the instances of his biting seem somewhat random. Most of the time he loves to be loved on and pet, then he turns. Most bites come after a very gentle touch too. No specific part of his body. Reminds me of a cat.

 

As I stated in my first post, I do not believe that most general vets are 'educated/trained' enough to identify the more unusual (shall we say) muscle or joint issues. So regardless of what your vet has done, I wouldn't put the 'pain' theory to rest until he has had a complete check-up by an ortho or rehab vet (also called a 'physio' in the UK and other countries).

 

What mbc1963 said: "I wonder if he hid his pain at the vet - my old dog could be entirely stoic at the vet and show no reaction to pain at all,...". This may play into his examination results too. When he was 3, my dog was playing with a ball in the back yard and came up short and lifted his left front. I stopped play then and went inside for the night. The next morning (Sunday) he was a tripod. Would not put any weight on his leg - not even when he was ascending or descending stairs. I took him to the emergency vet, and he walked across the parking lot into the building at a tripod. The vet brought him into the back area (without me) to 'gait him' in order to see what was wrong. My dog was back 5 minutes later with a technician who asked me to repeat his history and the symptoms he was showing. She then said that they would prescribe anti-inflammatories, but that they did NOT see any sign of a limp on my dog. My dog was stoic enough to totally disguise his injury - which was eventually diagnosed as a bicep tendon tear (75% torn). The diagnosis required the expertise of an ortho vet. After he left the vet, he was a tripod again until the next day when the anti -inflammatories began to take effect.

 

Interesting you should say he reminds you of a cat. I was also thinking somewhat along the same lines. Many cats will tolerate only so much petting. For example, one cat may tolerate 3 or 4 'pets' before swiping at his owner. Another cat may withstand 30 seconds or so before they are 'outta there'. And others may lie there all day long while they are being petted. He may have a lower tolerance level for pets. Try to keep track of how many, and where, strokes he will tolerate before he bites. That may provide some useful information.

 

Best of Luck with Declan. Please let us know if you get a diagnosis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, I am so grateful for the time you have all taken to consider my boy's problems in such depth. Thank you so much.

I'm certainly looking for any sort of a pattern. Just when I think I notice one, he throws a curveball our way. He'll do it anywhere, at any time, to anyone, in reaction to being pet on any part of his body. It does seem to resemble a fear-type reaction to me--whether he's associating it with a bad memory of being pet or afraid of experiencing pain. It doesn't seem like he's in all all-around "bad mood" when he reacts, doesn't seem like he's feeling crummy. He seems fine and will even be eager to obey commands when he's just snarled or growled (I'll often ask him to roll onto his side).

But I think I'm now going to find an orthopedic vet in the area to try to rule that out. If we can somehow rule everything physical out, I'll just work with trying to recondition his associations with being pet. I have a pretty clear gameplan of how to go about that with him, but I don't want to discourage him from giving warning signs if he's actually in pain or trying to communicate that something's wrong.

I will definitely update with any diagnosis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The middle dog in my signature did this (or something similar) for a while. Bottom line? Dog did not want to be touched. She was happy to interact (follow them around, wagging tail, take treats), initially, but the more being interacted with led to petting the less she wanted to interact.

 

I will say, though, that she never bit and she only rarely directed it at household members. It was absolutely, undeniably, a fear behavior when it came to strangers (she'd flip over on her back), and with us it was pretty clearly a 'correction' type thing (like you'd direct at another dog) - not cool, but what it was. It was also really, really rarely directed at a household member. Interestingly, she never had an issue with grooming or ear cleaning or nail clipping - just PETTING.


I spent a good year just advising anyone and everyone not to touch her. It started about 6 months old, lasted until she was about 18 months old. I spent that entire year telling people to ignore her. I still mostly tell people to ignore her. She is not a dog who enjoys physical manipulation and wasn't a puppy who did, either, but she was small and cute and endearing and everyone did it and she hated it a lot, and every time hated it more.


She will, at 3.5, tolerate ANY degree of it. We just got back from vacation where she was pet by probably fifty strangers and dealt and kind of mildly happy about it, but was worn out by it. She basically built confidence through people *not* petting her and touching her all the time - and had more reserves to handle it when it did happen.

 

That said, this isn't necessarily what's going on. Pursue the pain thing, big time. In my case, though, it was having a dog who didn't like being pet, and was kind of insecure anyway, and being constantly forced to do something she found unpleasant a lot just set up a situation that wasn't so hot for her.

(Point of interest: she came home to us at about 4 weeks old, so there may actually be something there. IDK).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might be a good idea to take some very detailed notes every time it happens. Record anything and everything you can think of: what time of day, indoor/outdoors, weather, who touched him, where he was touched, how recently he'd eaten, etc., etc., etc. Everything.

 

It might even be a good idea to see if you can try to catch it on video to show the vet.

 

And even if there's no university vet hospital close, it might be worth making a trip to have him seen at one. Most states, I believe, have veterinary schools with an associated hospital. Depending where you are, maybe the teaching hospital in an adjoining state would be closer. The advantage of such a hospital is that they'll have various specialists on site.

 

Again, wishing you the best trying to figure it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The middle dog in my signature did this (or something similar) for a while. Bottom line? Dog did not want to be touched. She was happy to interact (follow them around, wagging tail, take treats), initially, but the more being interacted with led to petting the less she wanted to interact.

 

It's extremely comforting to hear from someone else who's dealt with similar behavior. Did you ever try positive reinforcement for good behavior when pet? Not pushing her to necessarily like constant petting, but teaching her the correct behavior when she is inevitably pet by people? It is a challenge to keep people from petting Declan for sure; he's a gorgeous dog (I'm a bit biased of course) and he melts you when he tries to be a good boy by not jumping to ask for attention, fidgeting and inching up until his little nose is right under your chin.

 

(Point of interest: she came home to us at about 4 weeks old, so there may actually be something there. IDK).

 

I definitely feel like, if nothing else, Declan's being separated too early set him up for failure, making him more inclined to certain behavioral issues. Interesting the connection here, though.

 

It might be a good idea to take some very detailed notes every time it happens. Record anything and everything you can think of: what time of day, indoor/outdoors, weather, who touched him, where he was touched, how recently he'd eaten, etc., etc., etc. Everything.

 

It might even be a good idea to see if you can try to catch it on video to show the vet.

 

And even if there's no university vet hospital close, it might be worth making a trip to have him seen at one. Most states, I believe, have veterinary schools with an associated hospital. Depending where you are, maybe the teaching hospital in an adjoining state would be closer. The advantage of such a hospital is that they'll have various specialists on site.

 

Again, wishing you the best trying to figure it out.

 

That's a really good idea. I'll probably keep a journal on it just incase there's some common denominator I'm missing. And I actually caught it on video today, so when he returns for his next checkup that the vet wanted to do, I'll show him that and talk to him about referring us to the closest university vet hospital (from what I understand you need a referral). Thank you again for your suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kylie was found in a trash dumpster :/ It was a sad situation all around, and she has DEFINITELY turned into a remarkable dog.

 

I did do positive reinforcement with Kylie, but I had to break the negative association first, if that makes sense. For her petting was unpleasant, and my attempts at socialization originally made her worse. I'd have her go up to people to take a treat, but ultimately what happened with that was just associated getting a treat with having to be pet. Them feeding the treat didn't make the petting positive, the petting made the treat negative and she became suspicious of the treat itself and the request.

 

So I basically started off by having her do tricks and 'work' in the presence of other people. She's just a little bit of an adorable dog (some kind of chi mix) but she has ALWAYS absolutely loved trick training. It helped our bond early on and it helped through this. Working AROUND people was positive, and a positive association to her without the negative (to her) association of being handled by them. We just started in parks and petstores and out and about. Ultimately went to an agility class, where there were dog savvy people who could feed her and not push her or follow up the treating with petting.

 

The training, the agility, the working out and about all gave her more confidence and security and as that grew so did her willingness to be pet by people she didn't know.

 

Handling it at home meant mostly teaching her things that required physical interaction she could control. Nose touches to hand, jumping into a lap, chin targeting, paw targeting, whatever with body parts. But like the other bit, mostly the more her confidence grew the more her tolerance grew, and the less it stressed her out.

 

Definitely keep looking at the pain angle, though. Better safe than sorry, and my experience isn't necessarily yours. There are just things there that remind me of Kylie (as well as making me think maybe pain)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and something like this might help, while you investigate pain and work through whatever's going on, though obviously that's more useful with the public than with your family.

 

harness2%20-%201_zps9x29dikx.jpg

 

That one's a Julius K9 Harness with patches from someone else, but they also make vests that say similar things.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

All good advice given above.

One question: since you say he is pretty happy coming up to people - what happens if you scratch his belly/chest while he's sitting up or standing? Maybe there's the fear period thing with a hand going over his head (which is what we stupid humans do all the time).

 

If you can't get to a university, you might also check out one of these websites to see if there's anyone near you.

 

http://www.caninerehabinstitute.com/Find_A_Therapist.html

 

https://www.rehabvets.org/referrals.lasso

 

diane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not trying to be contrary at all, but wondering . . . wouldn't you want to have a pretty firm diagnosis before you'd start looking into a rehab vet?

 

Especially if it isn't pain but something else, possibly neurological, or anything other than pain, it seems to me that a rehab vet might be barking up the wrong tree.

 

Just thinking out loud here. . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I did do positive reinforcement with Kylie, but I had to break the negative association first, if that makes sense. For her petting was unpleasant, and my attempts at socialization originally made her worse. I'd have her go up to people to take a treat, but ultimately what happened with that was just associated getting a treat with having to be pet. Them feeding the treat didn't make the petting positive, the petting made the treat negative and she became suspicious of the treat itself and the request.

 

So I basically started off by having her do tricks and 'work' in the presence of other people. She's just a little bit of an adorable dog (some kind of chi mix) but she has ALWAYS absolutely loved trick training. It helped our bond early on and it helped through this. Working AROUND people was positive, and a positive association to her without the negative (to her) association of being handled by them. We just started in parks and petstores and out and about. Ultimately went to an agility class, where there were dog savvy people who could feed her and not push her or follow up the treating with petting.

 

The training, the agility, the working out and about all gave her more confidence and security and as that grew so did her willingness to be pet by people she didn't know.

 

Handling it at home meant mostly teaching her things that required physical interaction she could control. Nose touches to hand, jumping into a lap, chin targeting, paw targeting, whatever with body parts. But like the other bit, mostly the more her confidence grew the more her tolerance grew, and the less it stressed her out.

 

Definitely keep looking at the pain angle, though. Better safe than sorry, and my experience isn't necessarily yours. There are just things there that remind me of Kylie (as well as making me think maybe pain)


Wow, poor girl! Declan is definitely not that bad right now. I don't think he would need so much to "break the negative association," because he seems to enjoy being pet most of the time. I just don't want to jump the gun with behavior if he's just trying to communicate pain, so I will rule that out. I'd like to get this sorted out as soon as possible so we can get on top of it early.

And that harness is a good idea. Thanks for the suggestion. :)

 

All good advice given above.

One question: since you say he is pretty happy coming up to people - what happens if you scratch his belly/chest while he's sitting up or standing? Maybe there's the fear period thing with a hand going over his head (which is what we stupid humans do all the time).

 

If you can't get to a university, you might also check out one of these websites to see if there's anyone near you.

 

http://www.caninerehabinstitute.com/Find_A_Therapist.html

 

https://www.rehabvets.org/referrals.lasso

 

diane


He's definitely snapped a couple of times with his head being pet, but it's not limited to that. Today I was catching video of an episode for the vet, and it was his paw that he didn't like being touched. I think I find he most often reacts to being pet on the back, but again, it's not limited to that.

Thanks for the resources!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the video idea is FABULOUS! If you can catch a variety of situations where the dog reacts, you can look for commonalities and patterns. It's a great (and scary) world where we all have video capabilities at our fingertips, all the time.

 

It'd also be cool if someone else could video the situations occurring, so you can watch your own and family members' behaviors - also look for the dog's body language immediately prior to the "snap."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did your vet do bloodwork? Was panosteitis considered? The latter is something of a stretch, but worth considering since it does happen with border collies.

 

Also, if he is playing rough with the spaniel, he could just have transient soreness, which means pain wouldn't necessarily show at the vet's.

 

I'd probably have blood work done just to have a baseline (good to have anyway), and it might show something.

 

I had a fear aggressive dog, but he really only reacted if someone made to grab his collar. As he aged be got touchier, but he generally didn't snap just for being touched. I guess if someone touched him quickly in his collar area he might have though.

 

As for Roxanne's question about getting a diagnosis first, I think there are instances where someone familiar with activity related injuries, etc., might provide a unique perspective on the basis of what they see daily in their practices.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be great if you could post the video you got here or even some of the journal entries, it might give us some more insight and give you an outsider's point of view on it.


To me it sounds like either something happened that freaked him out or hurt him while he was getting pet one time (a shock sounds reasonable to me), or nothing happened and he's just going through the weird teenager-y phase where behaviors change without much reason. My dog became an intense resource guarder when he hit about 6 months, and then got over it pretty quickly about 2 months later. It happens. My trainer had a dog that was fine with being pet most of the time, but sometimes would get "autistic" about it, as she described it. He'd be feeling overstimulated and then someone would touch him and he'd snap (figuratively).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll definitely try to post a good video or two of it in the next couple of days. As for the body language, I've gotten very good at noticing it, but it happens very quickly. His tail stops wagging suddenly, ears are back, breathing stops, head angles upward slowly, then the snap. Up until that point he is happy and I see no signs of it.

 

Did your vet do bloodwork? Was panosteitis considered? The latter is something of a stretch, but worth considering since it does happen with border collies.

 

Also, if he is playing rough with the spaniel, he could just have transient soreness, which means pain wouldn't necessarily show at the vet's.

The vet did do bloodwork. Interesting you mention something like panosteitis, though, because he does seem less tolerant with touches to his front legs. It's not limited to that by any means, but something like that wouldn't be too hard to believe. Or just soreness. I'm going to keep note of his rough play in our journal that I will also post some of here.

My dog became an intense resource guarder when he hit about 6 months, and then got over it pretty quickly about 2 months later. It happens. My trainer had a dog that was fine with being pet most of the time, but sometimes would get "autistic" about it, as she described it. He'd be feeling overstimulated and then someone would touch him and he'd snap (figuratively).

Declan was a resource guarder for a while. Still has that inclination. I worked with him very consistently on his food and toys, still do, and he's really a dream with that now. I can take his food up with no problem, whereas when he was about 4 months old he would growl if I approached. Thankfully that didn't last long. He seems to be so much more confident these days. Funny you mention "autistic." My husband and I often describe his behavior as a little autistic child. Brilliant in many areas, struggling in others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...