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how do i train a 3-year old border collie


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got my border collie Celti or Celtic last October/November as a rescue and i been trying my best to train her along side my other dog Hermione (black lab mix) of who is 13 year, but i have been having trouble training a dog i didn't have since she was 6-8 weeks old.

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facts about the border collie:

1. she knows the basic commands like sit, lay, and shake though she is stubborn about them

2. she is kind and very loving but she can also be jealous when i try to give my parents dogs some playful attention

3. she has been (from what i been told) abused from when she was young, but she doesn't show it a lot

4. she guards the dog food when other dogs need to eat, i even tried 2 bowls down but similar to same reaction

5.she still has some issues with not being house broken (IE: today when we got back from a walk she decides to pee in the living room though she went pee outside)

6. she is still learning how to bring the ball back to me when we (with the lab too) are at the park

7. when i call for her she is instantly at my heels

8. she pulls when walking

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my family and i usually take the dogs collars off when they are inside but the border collie has a harness

if i think of anything else ill post it on either this post or as an reply

 

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I don't believe not having her since she was 6-8 wks old has anything to do with being able to train her. but do start her as if she were a pup. go back to the beginning, take an obedience class. treat her as if she knows little to nothing and YOU have to train her as you like, hopefully, with lots of positive reinforcement. every time I have adopted a dog, usually 1+ yr. old, and there have been about 7, the first thing we do is find an obedience class. I find it helps bonding, helps with socialization and gets me help and great feedback. I know that after all these years of training I could do this myself, in the privacy of my own yard, but I find paying for it and having to show up (cause I'm cheap and if I paid for it, I'm going!) is beneficial.

I would, and do, take the same approach to housebreaking. I assume the dog is not and crate when I'm away and walk the dog almost hourly when I'm home to get the results I want. mostly lots of praise for correct behavior. in fact my latest dog pretty much goes on command because he loves the praise. even if he doesn't have to go, he will "assume the position" so i'll tell him what a good boy he is for going peepee. LOL

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I second everything rufftie says. Training this dog isn't going to be much different than training a younger dog, just find what motivates her and use it for positive reinforcement. I also think obedience classes are great, both for socialization, getting used to working in distracting environments, and accountability for the owner :) Is the dog crate-trained? It might be useful for housebreaking and also doing some crate-and-rotate while the dogs are eating.

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Agreed with rufftie. No matter what her age is, treat her like a younger dog. A blank slate.

 

1. Stubborness about commands. Only ask once and make her do it. You're better off only giving a command once a day and MAKING her respond to it than repeating yourself over and over. The command becomes white noise and makes the dog bored.

 

2. She gets no attention for any kind of "jealous" or aggressive behavior.

 

3.Rescues are always a guessing game. Just treat her like any non rescue dog and make little mental notes about behaviors that strike you as unusual and her reactions.

 

4. Are you free feeding? Can you switch to 2x's a day and not leave food out? Or feed in crates?

 

5. Were you right there when she peed on the floor? If not she should be in a crate if you can't watch her closely. This goes much faster than an 8 week old puppy, but structure is your friend. I actually don't mind it if I can catch them in the act. It gives me a chance to tell them that's it's wrong. If you didn't see it, it didn't happen! Can't scold after the fact. Hence being in a crate if you aren't engaged with her.

 

6. Does she bring the ball back at home? If not, she sure won't with the distractions at a park. Simplify it by training her somewhere she's very comfortable and then expand to new places once its solid. NEVER chase her. Run in the opposite direction to get her to come to you. A check cord would be helpful here.

 

7. Good!!

 

8. I don't like harnesses as they create pulling. All we use are choke chains, but if you can't use one or don't know how to use one correctly, something like a halti would be an idea.

 

I second the obedience class suggestion! There are a lot of things in dog training that it greatly helps to see firsthand.

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I love training dogs and I can tell you training an 8 week old dog is no different from training an older dog. My grandma adopted a 3 year old cockapoo from the shelter who was a stray, had no manners, was not house trained, had no idea how to play, and was terrified of EVERYTHING. On top of that she also had worms, parasites, and a pretty nasty ear infection. You know what reward she ended up loving the most? Toys.

 

Try sparking an interest in tug. Just take a rope toy and bounce it around on the ground and when she takes it just let her pull and get it from you, but not super easily just hold it a second before the dog gets it. That can help build confidence. For fetch start inside with a soft toy and make it seem really exciting and then toss it a foot or so away. Get super excited when the dog picks it up and then start walking the other way. The majority of dogs will follow you. Then stop and let the dog drop it. Repeat until that is solid then add more distance.

 

I use a no pull harness with Lyka and it does wonders with her pulling. I used to use a pinch collar, but my trainer asked me to try the harness as another less painful option.

 

As far as food aggression if you are free feeding stop. Feed twice a day or small meals 3 times a day. Do not feed the dogs together. Even my dogs who don't guard their food are not fed together, because Lyka will eat all the good bits (raw food or meat toppers) out of Lily's dinner if I do. I would reccomend feeding in separate rooms for now. Slowly move them closer as they begin to understand meal times.

 

I will also third seeking out an obedience class. Look around and talk to the trainers to figure out which one is best for you and your dog.

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Gosh, LOTS of good advice above. Everything I was going to say and then some.

 

You may benefit from reading the book "Love Has No Age Limit" by Patricia McConnell, a leading dog behaviorist. You can purchase it from her website. Very inexpensive. It is a fast read (less than 100 pages) and concisely covers the major issues that some rescue dogs, and their new owners, face during the first few months (or longer) after adoption.

 

One major point about rescue dogs is that -some- dogs will require one month, three months or longer to express their full personality.

 

From your post, I don't see anything that can't be overcome with appropriate training (positive-based methods) and management.

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When she pees in the house, could it be that she's marking? My friends have a dog who will do his business outside, but they can't leave him unsupervised with their other dog around because he'll start marking. When the dogs were separated for a couple semesters, he completely stopped. Then he picked it up again when the other dog moved back in.

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Some great advice so far. For the food guarding I would recommend Mine! by Jean Donaldson. It was a great starting point for us when Aed was having resource guarding issues. The key for me was just being really diligent about not giving him opportunities to guard while we were working on the issue..

As far as stubbornness with commands, I'm not sure about "making her" do the commands, since it's pretty hard to make a dog sit if it doesn't want to. Instead I would ask for a behavior (sit, lie down, whatever), and if she doesn't do it, just walk away. But if she does do it, throw a party! Get really excited, praise heavily, and give her something she really likes, whether that's tug, treats, affection, whatever. Keep getting excited and rewarding her until she's doing it 100% of the time, then you can tone it down (but still reward occasionally for sure. I make sure I do this by asking for simple behaviors like that in my daily routine, like before taking a leash off, throwing a toy, giving dinner, etc.)

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Lots of good suggestions that I won't repeat, but will comment on some things.

 

So-called "stubbornness" is often actually a dog not completely understanding what it is you want or expect from it. For example, a dog who's slow to respond to a cue has often not properly been taught that the expectation is for the cue to be complied with promptly. It can be because you've accepted and maybe even rewarded slow responses, repeated the cue when it wasn't immediately complied with, poor reward timing, etc. First make sure Celti understands the cue and has been rewarded for responding. Have you clicker trained? If not, it'd be something to look into.

 

Once you're sure Celti understands the cue, you could start implementing a No Reward marker into your training. If she doesn't respond promptly, neutrally say something like, "Ooops!" or "Too bad" and walk away. Try again in a little while and make sure to use your positive reward marker (click, mouth click, Yes!, etc.) immediately and follow with a reward -- a treat, play, enthusiastic praise, whatever. The response time can be delayed just a little at first, but gradually increase the criteria so that you can eventually expect her to respond within a maximum of 3 seconds (One one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand or Mississippi instead of one thousand).

 

I don't see why a halter would encourage pulling any more than a buckle collar would. It's a matter of training. Reward loose leash walking and treat from the position where you want her to be. A good positive reinforcement trainer should be able to help with this. No need for choke chains.

 

Jealousy when other dogs are getting attention seems to be a breed trait in border collies. I've never had one who doesn't want to horn in when someone else is getting any kind of attention. ;) As long as it's not aggressive, just ignore it. If it's bothersome, teach her an alternative behavior like "go to your mat".

 

Re: peeing in the house. Have you made sure she doesn't have a urinary tract infection? If she's peeing frequently, it might be a good thing to rule this out with your vet. If not, then what others have said. And make sure you're cleaning the areas where she's peed with a good enzyme based cleaner. They can smell even the slightest residue that we can't detect.

 

I've trained a number of older rescues and fosters. As someone else said, it's not that much different from teaching a puppy. Just start at the first step and move on when ready.

 

Best wishes to you and Celti.

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I'm going to agree here with GentleLake's point about not understanding the commands. This is crucial. You cannot correct for a command that the dog doesn't know or understand. This is why going to a trainer would be vital to get the "between the lines" info that is missed or assumed on boards like this.

 

I would correct only for blatant disobedience where I KNOW that the dog knows the command and is CHOOSING to not comply. The praise is so, so much more important than the correction. (Just a pop on the leash with the choke collar in our case)

 

With most people I have found that yes, harnesses encourage pulling just because of where they are located on the body. They do not cause discomfort when braced against, excepting of course a anti-pulling harness. We prefer the choke collar because when use correctly, it is in fact gentler than other collars. Pressure is distributed 360 degrees around the dog's neck. It's also psychological warfare. I only need the dog to hear a couple links together to remind it of what it is supposed to be doing. Whatever method you use should be by far more positive than negative. Mark good behavior with a cue word (Or click) and get them striving get rewarded by doing the correct thing. It's their choice whether they get rewarded or not.

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One of the problems with choke collars is that few people actually understand how to use them "correctly" (in quotes because I disagree with their usefulness at all. ;) ).

 

And most people don't know that they don't know how to use them "correctly." So I discourage people from using them, especially when there are (IMO) better methods for training loose leash walking.

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You may benefit from reading the book "Love Has No Age Limit" by Patricia McConnell, a leading dog behaviorist. You can purchase it from her website. Very inexpensive. It is a fast read (less than 100 pages) and concisely covers the major issues that some rescue dogs, and their new owners, face during the first few months (or longer) after adoption.

 

Someone recommended that book before I brought my rescue dog home. I bought a copy cheap off the Internet, read it, and would be happy to pass it along if you'd like. Message me your address and I will put it in the mail. :)

 

I agree with the "not understanding commands" piece. My dog Cricket had been in a hoarding house in the south before being brought north to rescue. I suspect she had litle human interaction before getting into her foster home. (Though... she loves the couch and the car, so it's also possible she had some good human interaction during her life.) Anyway, she didn't know any common commands: no sit, stay, lie down, etc..

 

I worked on "sit" for a while! She wouldn't let me touch her or push her down, and she wouldn't sit on her own with the "raise the treat over her head" trick, because I think sitting put her in a vulnerable position.

 

I told my family I felt like Annie Sullivan trying to teach Helen Keller what all the finger spelling was about! If only I could break through and let the dog know that my word/sign had a meaning!!

 

My trainer suggested waiting until Cricket sat on her own, and then saying the word "sit" and making a big fuss. Meantime, folks in the forum had suggested loading the clicker, so I did train that "click" meant treat.

 

Once the "click" was in place, it only took a day to teach "sit." Cricket just had to make the link between my saying the word/doing the sign and her sitting. Once she knew, she really WANTED to do what I asked. At this point, as soon as we run into human beings anywhere, she does a strong and solid "sit." It's awesome! :D

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got my border collie Celti or Celtic last October/November as a rescue and i been trying my best to train her along side my other dog Hermione (black lab mix) of who is 13 year, but i have been having trouble training a dog i didn't have since she was 6-8 weeks old.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

facts about the border collie:

1. she knows the basic commands like sit, lay, and shake though she is stubborn about them

2. she is kind and very loving but she can also be jealous when i try to give my parents dogs some playful attention

3. she has been (from what i been told) abused from when she was young, but she doesn't show it a lot

4. she guards the dog food when other dogs need to eat, i even tried 2 bowls down but similar to same reaction

5.she still has some issues with not being house broken (IE: today when we got back from a walk she decides to pee in the living room though she went pee outside)

6. she is still learning how to bring the ball back to me when we (with the lab too) are at the park

7. when i call for her she is instantly at my heels

8. she pulls when walking

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my family and i usually take the dogs collars off when they are inside but the border collie has a harness

if i think of anything else ill post it on either this post or as an reply

 

 

Hi there!

 

You've already gotten some great advice, so I'm probably just singing along with the choir, but here's a few thoughts from me. :)

 

1. If she appears stubborn, I'd suggest two things. One, make sure she is truly clear on what you are asking AND that there are not too many distractions going on at the same time. (Working her with Hermione might be too distracting. Have you tried training her by herself?) Two, don't repeat yourself so that she learns to ignore commands. Ask once, then help her do it right.

 

2. Jealous is not a good thing. She's resource-guarding you. Don't let her do this. You could teach her to sit or lie down and stay, while you briefly pet the other dogs, then send them away and praise her for being good - IF she's been good. You might minimize the playfulness with the other dogs until she's more settled about their interactions with you. If she persists in being inappropriate, don't yell or throw a fuss, just remove her from the situation and put her away somewhere. Let her learn that being jealous = removal from your attention.

 

4. Guarding the dog food? Were you feeding all the dogs from a common bowl? If you are free-feeding , I feel this is time to stop. I recommend instituting regular meal times and give each dog its own bowl to eat from. My 4 dogs all have their own bowls and their own specific spots in the kitchen where they are fed. Teach each dog to wait its turn and sit while you set the bowl down. No lunging or grabbing for food.

 

I don't care for free-feeding dogs, period, unless a dog has trouble keeping weight on. By having specific meal times and individual bowls, you achieve several things. One, you can monitor how much each dog eats and address things like obesity or the occasional upset tummy. Two, you can see immediately if a dog takes ill and goes off its feed, rather than noticing only when the dog begins to lose weight. Three, it gives each dog the comfort of having its own safe spot to eat and eliminates any competition. That would certainly help with your dog's food guarding issues. You would of course have to monitor mealtimes for a while until they get the hang of it and to keep everybody "honest," but they'd soon pick it up.

 

5. The accidents in the house could be that she just hasn't quite entirely got the knack, yet. Not knowing exactly how she lived before, she may just be a little fuzzy about the whole thing. Be patient and persistent, and though she's grown, maybe handle it like she was a puppy. If she's been playing outside and comes in, then maybe send her out alone and encourage her to potty again. No play, no walk, no interaction from you, just potty. That might possibly help until she learns the rules.

 

And that's about all I got. :) The feeding thing, though, I feel needs to immediately change to each dog having its own bowl and regularly timed meals, so that there is no competition for the food bowl.

 

Congrats on your new (well, new nearly a year ago) girl! She looks lovely, such a sweet face. :wub:

 

~ Gloria

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I think anytime you view training as "psychological warfare" there's something wrong. Partnerships work best, where the dog is taught fully to understand what you want and where corrections, and especially physical corrections, are kept to a minimum (improves effectiveness).

 

Most people don't know how to properly fit or use a choke chain. And their timing sucks. And I think most of the people on this forum prefer a dog that does what it's asked out of the joy of the partnership and not the fear of the repercussion. At least one could start with more positive-based training techniques. There's certainly no harm in it.

 

J.

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To each his own. We use the choke collars very effectively. This proves the negative attitude that most people have of them when all they have seen is them used incorrectly. We teach all our clients how to use the collar as well.

Psychological warfare is not meant as a way to cause mental distress. The collar just also makes a slight noise to refocus the dog. It also doesn't swell up when wet like the british style or martingale collars. You have the additional benefit of the noise. No different than a tone collar. All of our dogs are trained with positive methods. Rarely do I ever have to do more than have the collar make a noise. If I was reefing on a dog with it, obviously I would be a pretty poor trainer. I don't want to hijack this thread and still insist that the poster find a good reputable trainer with methods that they are comfortable with.

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The collar ... doesn't swell up when wet like the ... martingale collars.

 

Huh? I've used lots of martingale collars on foster dogs (the rescue I volunteer with requires them) and I've never had one "swell up" even after a good swim or bath with it on. We use standard flat nylon martingale collars. No swelling up when wet. And no chance for misuse when properly fitted because they can't tighten to that point, though I'll concede that if they're fitted wrong they can be used aversively, just like a choke collar.

 

And if you do leash pop corrections, that's not positive training.

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Choke chain - Should be no need to punish a dog in that way. Yes they work but not in a way I would want to inflict on a dog. I shouldn't be surprised that there are still some trainers using them as a regular tool but I am.

 

Harnesses do not encourage pulling. That is a misconception that seems to be shared by people who don't use them.

 

Martingales swelling up? Another Huh?

 

And as a Brit, what is a "British style collar"?

 

Julie has it right.

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Whoops, misread and the OP isn't who was saying things about choke collars, later.


Bottom line: If you have to resort to force to be clear about rules and boundaries with a BC, who is about as biddable and eager to work with a human and please as they come, you're not much of a trainer. Furthermore those methods are incredibly limited - you will never teach a dog complex, chained, behaviors or independent performance with a choke chain.

 

Other bottom line: My martingales are made out of freaking satin covered nylon. There is no way for them to swell, and any dog who truly understands what loose leash walking is about isn't going to have a problem walking on a harness and teaching LLW doesn't need to involve discomfort to the dog, anyway. Doesn't matter what the leash is attached to, if you actually train the dog.

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Well said. My problem with the choke chain is simply that there's nothing you can achieve with it that you can't achieve just as well or better with proper training. I don't want to suppress my dog's instincts and urges, I want to change and redirect them.

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