We need help

[AnyaDogz]

We need help. Jack doesn't need help, we as his humans need help. We need a trainer that specializes in either border collies and or rescue dogs. Or rescued border collies.

 

Just walking him or riding a bike with him isn't working. We know he is bored. Absolutely bored to tears. The trouble WE are having is in training. When we try to work with him he either rolls onto his back or he jumps up. We are just lost. I don't know how else to say it other than we are totally out of our element. We know rescue labs and the tools, we need extra tools in the tool box.

 

Jack is a fine livable house trained dog that needs a job. We just don't know what job to give him. He's probably the most laid back BC you'll ever meet. However, we know that isn't enough.

 

If anyone knows of a trainer in the Miami, Darke, Shelby, Montgomery county Ohio area please let me know. We need help.

[GentleLake]

I'm not sure I understand.

 

Yes, border collies have some temperament traits that make them somewhat different than other breeds, as do Labs and any other breeds, or more accurately, various breed groups.

 

But they're still dogs and you train them like you train other dogs. You might have to be aware that they can be more sensitive than some other types, and therefore may not do well with harsh training methods. But I wouldn't recommend harsh training methods for a Lab, either. My first dog was a Pointer/Lab mix. My second was a border collie. Other than toning things down (I was doing old school training with positive punishment back then) for the more sensitive border collie, I used the same training methods. My training has evolved to mostly positive reinforcement these days, but I still use the same methods with my border collies as I do with other breeds I may be helping people with.

 

As rescues they don't usually carry different baggage than other rescues.

 

You say he needs a job. OK, how about giving him a job? Trick training, agility obstacles, Treiball, nose work, etc. are all things that will engage his mind. Therapy dog work has been a great job for my laid back guy. He knows it's a job and he takes his job very seriously . . .

 

I certainly won't discourage you from finding a good trainer, but it doesn't have to be a trainer who specializes in either border collies or in rescues. Familiarity with either would be a plus, but not necessary if they're good.

 

You don't really say what you've tried so far. Maybe if you could elaborate, someone might be able to offer you some more suggestions. It might also be helpful if you could tell us how old Jack is and how long you've had him.

[borasaurus]

If you find something that engages his mind, then he might settle more. Is that even the issue? If he's laid back, what's he doing that's causing problems? It's funny, even after taking Kieran on a long walk, playing at the park, and then going to flyball, he will come home and have the zoomies. But fifteen minutes of trick training? Then he's in his bed.

[denice]

I am just outside Cincy an hour into southeastern Indiana. My web site has contact info. Happy to have you come out and give some suggestions

 

 

www.clearfieldstockdogs.com

 

Feel free to give me a call

[chrisandgabe]

He might take well to clicker training. For both of my dogs (doodle I had as a puppy, BC we rescued at 2 years old about 6 weeks ago), when the clicker comes out, it's work time. We do trick training or leash walking or just working on in the house things like "settle". I've also used it to help Gabe figure out his "brain games" like getting food out of the Nina Ottoson Tornado or Kong Wobbler. What is your dog doing that you know he's just so bored? Have you done obedience classes? Is he jumping or rolling on his back because he's nervous or overwhelmed? I feel like we need a little more info about what's going on, but probably any good positive reinforcement trainer could help you out without specializing in rescues or BCs. I work with trainers certified through CPDT, and you can use the "find a trainer" link on the CPDT website.

[AnyaDogz]

Let me apologize for the lack of details. Last night was a brain dump, we're both frustrated and that is bothersome to us. Bear with me while I try to clear things up without hopefully making myself less clear.

 

I can't express enough what a great dog Jack is. He's housebroke, crate trained, walks on a leash very well, comes when called everytime, you can call him off of chasing the furry little creatures. He isn't ocd over anything, rarely ever barks, is very people and dog friendly. We've taught him to sit, lay, stay, off and shake. As far as general obedience goes, he's the best dog we've ever had. I'm not saying he's perfect or anything like that, he's in general a cool dog. He's always ready to go for a car ride, he follows us all around the house, when we're chilling in the evenings he's either laying on the couch with us or laying at our feet. He's very interested in whatever we are doing, unless it's mowing, then he can't get far enough away from the mower. Or the vacuum cleaner. As I'm typing this, he's sitting on the floor watching me, ears at full prick.

 

As an example, my husband was trying to teach roll over a couple nights ago, he got two tries into the training and Jack pee'd on him. We are not harsh negative training humans. It's all very positive training. Plenty of treats, pets and good boys. Let me say again, we are not harsh trainers. There is no yelling no angry training. We've had dogs long enough to know negative reinforcement gets you absolutely nowhere. Whenever you try to work with him in any type of physical fashion (trying to move him or really just touch him) he rolls right onto his back or jumps.

 

We've tried getting him to chase a ball and he will not do it. I've cut open a tennis ball, inserted the treat, shown him there is a treat inside (he's very interested in the treat) rolled the ball forward, given the get the ball command and he literally just looks at you and wags his tail. We have both tried it I don't know how many times and he just won't chase. Which is fine, he's not a lab so chase isn't his thing. We've tried getting him to tug with us and he won't tug. He'll tug with our lab but not us. When we toss a treat, it bonks him in the nose and hits the floor. Honestly, I've never seen a dog, of any breed, not at least make an attempt to snag a treat. It's almost like he is scared to death of us. Which puzzles the both of us, as we have been nothing but loving with him.

 

The only thing we've had moderate success with is agility. (all on leash) We set up a little course in the back yard that has some jumps, some weaving type of obstacles etc. He'll run with you for a few minutes and then he wants to start running away and go lay on the porch.

 

And maybe using the word bored is wrong. As I said in my first post, he's very laid back. Maybe we are expecting way way more energy. I don't know and I'm sure I'm not expressing myself well. We both wish we could figure out how to engage him better. We also may be expecting way too much. We've all seen the videos of border collies doing very intricate complicated tricks. That may just not be Jack's thing. Perhaps we should be happy that we've taken a rescued BC into our home, have accomplished what we have and leave it at that.

 

I guess it just boils down to the fact that we both feel like we are failing him in some sort of fashion. When we first rescued him, everyone was like "omg, get him a job asap or else he'll make your life miserable" Well, we're just over a year with him and he's hardly made our lives miserable. He has absolutely wrapped himself right around our hearts. We may be just over thinking things and should let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe Jack doesn't want a job and is perfectly happy laying around getting belly rubs or wrestling with ya on the floor.

 

I'm sure I've been clear as mud explaining myself. And again I apologize that my post is probably disjointed and hard to read. It's difficult to express myself on a message board and not in person

[jvw]

You say he is bored. What makes you think that? Perhaps he is perfectly content.

[denice]

sounds like he is submissive. Not a bad thing. May simply be his personality. Tugging with toys some dogs see as great fun but it is him vs a person. The rolling over on his back can be a very submissive gesture as well but can be other things as well. Would not be able to say unless I saw it. When you husband is teaching him to roll over I imagine he is close to the dog and leaning over him - a very dominate display to a dog. More so to a sensitive submissive dog. Most likely the reason why he urinated - again a very submissive gesture

 

I would look up dog postures, dog behavior ect on the net or in some training books. Might help you figure out what he is thinking.

[gcv-border]

Jack sounds like a wonderful dog, but may be the atypical BC - calm, content, lower energy?

 

Having said that, a couple of his behaviors seem to indicate that he is not confident enough to engage in some of the play activity with you that you had expected. [Please take this with a grain of salt since I am only going off your description and not seeing the behaviors first-hand.] *I just saw denice's post and agree with the submissive thought and the possibility of the dog fearful of your husband leaning over him.

 

I have a friend who has a dog (Springer Spaniel) that hangs its head if she so much as sighs hard when the dog does not perform an expected behavior - for example, the dog knows its weaves, but will occasionally not finish the last 2 poles. She stops and sighs, and then in a happy voice, brings the dog back around to re-do the weaves. Her sigh obviously means something negative to the dog. She didn't even know she was doing it until someone pointed it out to her.

 

Some dogs are so super sensitive that behaviors, postures, voice tones, etc. that are not usually thought to be negative - do, in fact, affect the dog. You may have to really examine your interactions with Jack to see if he is being affected in such a way.

 

With regard to agility: [again, I can not see how you are training/interacting with Jack] reward him for every try he makes, even if he doesn't perform the obstacle. Since you have to build value for agility in his mind, if you don't reward him enough in the beginning, he will decide it is not worthwhile to him to engage in that behavior. Again, remember he is probably not like other dogs that pick up on agility fun pretty fast, you will have to do a lot more rewarding in the beginnning. If he is quitting on you after 4 or 5 tries, then play with him for only 3 tries and reward hugely. Build from there. Always stop training when the dog is still wanting to work.

[urge to herd]

How about just letting him do what he wants for a while? It sounds like he's a wonderful pet and companion, but not your typical 'letsdosomethingallthetime' border collie. We talk on these boards about installing an off-switch, so that a dog knows that it's not all action every minute. Sounds like your Jack already has his installed.

 

Within the limits of good housedog behavior, give it a rest. Let him decide when he wants to play with you. If he's content lolling about, let him. He might be a very socially sensitive dog - and be perceiving the training you're attempting with him as just too much.

 

If he's playing with your other dog well, that's great. If you really like agility, do 1 or 2 jumps with him, then call it quits. Let him do what he wants to do with you.

 

He might, in time, start dropping the tug toy at your feet. Or the ball. He might not. I think the best thing to do here, as you say his basic manners are excellent, is just stop. Give him some mental space.

 

Does your lab like agility, or tugging with you?

 

Please let us know how you get on.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

[PSmitty]

Does he have to learn to roll over or chase a ball? Are you interested in doing these things (including the intricate tricks) yourself, or do you think Jack NEEDS to do more? Because it doesn't sound like he does, honestly. If he's happy and well adjusted and a joy to live with, that's enough, right?

I can't express enough what a great dog Jack is. He's housebroke, crate trained, walks on a leash very well, comes when called everytime, you can call him off of chasing the furry little creatures. He isn't ocd over anything, rarely ever barks, is very people and dog friendly. We've taught him to sit, lay, stay, off and shake. As far as general obedience goes, he's the best dog we've ever had. I'm not saying he's perfect or anything like that, he's in general a cool dog. He's always ready to go for a car ride, he follows us all around the house, when we're chilling in the evenings he's either laying on the couch with us or laying at our feet. He's very interested in whatever we are doing, unless it's mowing, then he can't get far enough away from the mower. Or the vacuum cleaner. As I'm typing this, he's sitting on the floor watching me, ears at full prick.

 

I think this quote below is your answer in a nutshell, IMO.

We may be just over thinking things and should let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe Jack doesn't want a job and is perfectly happy laying around getting belly rubs or wrestling with ya on the floor.

[chene]

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=36684&hl=

This thread might be worth a read. Similar situation, looks like they found a way to make it work with less formal training.

[Chanse]

Maybe you can try free shaping. This would let Jack lead the training session instead of him being led. Do a search online (also, there should be some info on this forum) and you should be able to find some ideas for free shaping. Lots of people seem to start with a box or a target. Basically you just need a clicker and lots of treats/kibble. You reward very small improvements on a behavior until you achieve the desired behavior. The important thing with this is that you treat very rapidly. I think the goal is something like a treat every 3-4sec. A popular game for free shaping seems to be "101 things to do with a box", lots of youtube videos of that. Might be worth a try to see how Jack responds. This would definitely give him some mental stimulation, and might help with confidence.

[GentleLake]

I see you've had Jack about a year. How old is he? Do you know anything about his background?

 

It's possible that he was handled harshly before he came to you. That could make him very cautious about offering new behaviors if he's been punished for doing the "wrong" thing in the past.

 

8 years ago I adopted a then 1 1/2 - 2 year old border collie who'd been a stray for a while. He's also a soft dog by nature, but what I noticed was that he had no idea how to play. Not with a human and not with another dog. My older dog gradually taught him how to play with her and I slowly taught him how to play with me. He had no bite inhibition when he first started to play with us. We both taught him what was acceptable. We both had to encourage him gently at first and know when to back off when we were putting too much pressure in him.

 

In Bodhi's case, I think he may just not have had many of the normal early learning experiences that most dogs have. Add to that his experience as a stray (he was on the way to starving when he was first picked up) and in the shelter, where border collies often don't do well. He was pretty shut down and needed tome to come into himself. Jack may have had a similarly limiting past.

 

Time is the key, and each dog will have his own timeline.

 

It could also be that he's not so much bored as content. Bored dogs are often restless, looking for something to do and getting into mischief. I can't see Jack, of course, but it makes me wonder if he's OK with the way things are.

 

I agree that it appears he's submissive . . soft and probably a lot of this is his not really understanding and/or very uncomfortable about what's expected of him. It sounds to me like the attempts to teach him to roll over were just too much pressure for him. Each dog's different and it's important to be able to read their signal, especially when you have such a sensitive dog as Jack seems to be.

 

It took 3 1/2 years for me to teach Bodhi how to fetch a ball, though it wasn't a continuous effort. In the end it wasn't even a ball the he responded to but a squeaky stuffed "egg" from an Egg Babies toy. I started to roll it & gently praise (too enthusiastic praise distracted him) if he'd follow it, then pick it up, then for each step back in my direction. Then one day a light bulb went off in his head and he'd gotten it. We transferred it to a tennis ball and now he's the stereotypical ball obsessed border collie. The point is that I had to wait until he showed me signs that he was ready for it.

 

So I'd think that in the absence of any real indication of boredom, just giving Jack whatever time he needs to grow will be best for him. You're probably giving him more love and attention than he's known before and he may be perfectly content and happy with the way things are.

[Cass C]

I can sympathize with you about submissive dogs. My lily used to submissively urinate all the time. Things that put your dog in a venerable position may not be a good thing right now. He needs to gain confidence. Agility has been great for Lily's confidence, but if that isn't your thing you can try basic shaping. You see him do something you like click and set a super tasty treat by him. Then add a word to it after the dog starts offering the behavior. I was able to shape Lyka into bowing by shaping everytime she stretched.

[GentleLake]

I was able to shape Lyka into bowing by shaping everytime she stretched.

 

Not to be pedantic, but when you're rewarding for a something they're already doing it's called capturing a behavior. Shaping is rewarding successive approximations that get increasingly closer to the behavior you want to want, essentially breaking it down into small increments leading to the finished behavior. I'm sure there's a more descriptive definition online somewhere.

 

I captured the front stretch, which he was already doing when he'd get up, and cued it as "Take a bow" for Bodhi. Then I captured a front stretch followed by a back stretch and cued it as "Do your Yoga." People love it when he does either of them.

[Gloria Atwater]

Maybe we are expecting way way more energy. I don't know and I'm sure I'm not expressing myself well. We both wish we could figure out how to engage him better. We also may be expecting way too much. We've all seen the videos of border collies doing very intricate complicated tricks. That may just not be Jack's thing. Perhaps we should be happy that we've taken a rescued BC into our home, have accomplished what we have and leave it at that.

 

I guess it just boils down to the fact that we both feel like we are failing him in some sort of fashion. When we first rescued him, everyone was like "omg, get him a job asap or else he'll make your life miserable" Well, we're just over a year with him and he's hardly made our lives miserable. He has absolutely wrapped himself right around our hearts. We may be just over thinking things and should let sleeping dogs lie. Maybe Jack doesn't want a job and is perfectly happy laying around getting belly rubs or wrestling with ya on the floor.

 

 

 

How long have you had Jack?

 

I think the bit I've quoted above says it all, though. What if he's happy just being with you? What if he's happy just being your Jack?

 

What if he doesn't NEED a single thing - except you?

 

I think it sounds like he's a mellow, laid back, submissive sweet guy who totally didn't get the memo that he's supposed to be a hyper, OCD border collie who desperately needs "a job."

 

What if you just relaxed and enjoyed him as he is? What if you stopped trying quite so hard? I think it would be kinder to you, poor soul! You're not failing as owners if he's happy just hanging out, and he's not failing at being a dog if he's not into games or boisterous play. He won't be a lab and he's not required to be the stereotypical border collie.

 

Sometimes you get lucky and end up with a sweet, mellow dude. There's a lot of pet owners who'd give their eye teeth for a nice, good boy like your Jack.

 

~ Gloria

[CSW]

You mentioned bike riding. Border Collies and bicycles, strollers, etc, do not generally work well together. I would not try anything like riding a bike while have the dog run along. While that works with other breeds, definitely not with BCs. Likewise, snow shovels, rakes, brooms, even a mop can be a problem. It is the motion of the items that is a problem. BCs want to stop the motion.

[chene]

You mentioned bike riding. Border Collies and bicycles, strollers, etc, do not generally work well together. I would not try anything like riding a bike while have the dog run along. While that works with other breeds, definitely not with BCs. Likewise, snow shovels, rakes, brooms, even a mop can be a problem. It is the motion of the items that is a problem. BCs want to stop the motion.

 

I think this absolutely depends on the dog. Some can be motion reactive, and some aren't. And even within that spectrum, my pup was hugely reactive to cars at one point and never had a problem running beside a bicycle. He understood to stay out of its way.

[Cass C]

 

Not to be pedantic, but when you're rewarding for a something they're already doing it's called capturing a behavior. Shaping is rewarding successive approximations that get increasingly closer to the behavior you want to want, essentially breaking it down into small increments leading to the finished behavior. I'm sure there's a more descriptive definition online somewhere.

 

I captured the front stretch, which he was already doing when he'd get up, and cued it as "Take a bow" for Bodhi. Then I captured a front stretch followed by a back stretch and cued it as "Do your Yoga." People love it when he does either of them.

Oops! That's what I was thinking, for some reason my brain swapped the words. Thanks for correcting me.

[GentleLake]

I know a number of border collies who love jogging along with their people riding bikes. Like anything, it often requires some training, but it's similar to teaching loose leash walking.

[chrisandgabe]

I'm feeling kind of sad that you two are feeling so frustrated, he sounds like a great dog. He does sound pretty submissive and maybe a little nervous? Hard to tell without seeing him. I think some of the recommendations to click for behaviors he's giving you and turn them into "tricks" is a great one. And just as an aside, I know a lot of dogs who have trouble with "roll over".

[Chanse]

I know a lot of dogs who have trouble with "roll over".

 

My BC definitely struggled with that one and I almost didn't train it. It made him nervous and frustrated. I had to start with just holding a treat to the side of his head while in a down position and giving a click&treat for a small head turn. Took a while to get him to roll onto his side, but once he got that far the rest was easy. He is great at it except for certain types of floors. It took a while for him to get over his fear of rolling over on linoleum and tile. Once he figured it out he started rolling over every time I asked for a down Corrected that issue... mostly, still does it if he is super excited. Hard to complain though because it is entertaining.

[AnyaDogz]

Thank you all for the replies. Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner but I have the next few days off work and was trying to get some things in order so hubby and I can relax together.

 

One of the reasons why we feel Jack may be bored is if he is left outside of his crate for more than a couple of hours alone he will get into things he's not supposed to. And he's chewed a couple of things up. For us that's always been a sign of boredom but maybe for Jack, it's a form of separation anxiety. Here again, we may be projecting some sort of human emotion. I guess we just expect him to be bored because we haven't found a job for him.

[alligande]

One of the reasons why we feel Jack may be bored is if he is left outside of his crate for more than a couple of hours alone he will get into things he's not supposed to. And he's chewed a couple of things up. For us that's always been a sign of boredom but maybe for Jack, it's a form of separation anxiety. Here again, we may be projecting some sort of human emotion. I guess we just expect him to be bored because we haven't found a job for him.

 

Rather thank thinking boredom - how about curiosity - I live with a very nosy dog, bring something new home he wants to know what it is, but he also knows the house rules, no raiding the garbage can, taking food from the kitchen or having a chew. a border collies job can simply be being your best friend, we have had a couple of those. They really just want to be part of your lives.

 

PS I have never taught a dog to roll over, my dog can do complex agility moves, performs like a circus dog as part of his rehab program and has a huge vocabulary but roll over defeated me, I did not try that hard but it was obvious he was not keen, other silly tricks like learning to ring the type of bell you get on shop counters, he thought was fun!