Problems training advice needed

[Marlo]

I have 2 border collies female 21/2 , male 11/2. They both have been well socialised , raw fed get on great but have few issues that training does not seem to help.

ruby is great, very people friendly loves her ball, stick, bottle when Mack arrived she growled a lot put him in his place but they get on brilliant complete opposites. ruby loves people but is getting less tolerant with other dogs. She is alright with ones she knows but has started the lip goes up, growls even snapped at other dogs when too close. She does not play with others apart from Mack. Her recall is good she behaves well in the house. But I don't want her to behave like this towards others..

Mack on the other had runs for a ball when he feels like it, just loves other dogs but constantly circles them, which some dogs ignore but others hate. We try the down command which works , but as soon as he is up again he circles.

Both of them are outside when nice we have large back garden, they get two long walks a day off lead. I have moved house and business lately feel I should be training them more but unsure of what to do.

Lastly the both of them pull terrible on leash, tried halti and special leads but nothing helps.

They both still go to training, I feel they are bored with it and are going backwards ..

Any advice to help with these issues

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

If your dogs are retrogressing and bored with a training protocol, change trainers. Many owners (and trainers) expect too little of their dogs and bore the hell out of them.

 

Sunday am, as I drove up a narrow one lane dirt road to Steve Wetmore's Vermont SDT, I came upon Fiona Robertson walking her six Border Collies off lead. She called them to the verge and laid them down while I passed within two feet of the nearest. That's mannerliness. It's what our dogs can easily do.

 

Assign more difficult tasks: agility/competitive obedience/free style should keep them interested. If your dog is pulling on the leash, tell him to stop. Mean what you say.

 

Donald McCaig

 

Donald McCaig

[Marlo]

Ha ha Donald very easy to say..we tell them no ..correct them ..stand still..tried everything but they still pull. I know it is us that are in the wrong, must be sending mixed messages..Mack even looks at you retreats back when corrected but then proceeds to pull again.

I think u are right about the dogs being bored, do u think if I changed them to more difficult tasks it would help with the issues of growling at other dogs and spinning...tried to look in my local area for things like that but can't see anything.

Occasionally we go pack walks where if we meet another dog all dogs lie at the side to let him pass. Good manners

Thank u for your input

[GentleLake]

I think you need a different trainer too. Obviously the one you're using now isn't helping you learn what you need to do.

 

There's a good chance your dogs aren't getting the mental stimulation they need. Agility, nosework, Treiball or the like could help.

 

You might want to consider the Look at That exercises in Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" for the growling. The puppy edition is supposed to be better. It's been explained here, too, so you may find it by searching the archives.

 

Best wishes finding the help you need with your dogs.

[D'Elle]

Control Unleashed is a great book, and I second the recommendation. As for the growling, I recommend a book called "Click To Calm". And I second the suggestion that you try a different trainer. How long have you had these dogs?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms Marlo, You wrote:

 

"Ha ha Donald very easy to say..we tell them no ..correct them ..stand still..tried everything but they still pull."

 

Mean what you say. Explain to the dog that if he continues to pull you will do whatever is needed to correct him and if he pulls DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO CORRECT HIM.

 

Example: I was walking my two offlead dogs beside a friend's pulling Border Collie. When friend asked me how to prevent pulling I suggested a simple leash pop.

 

She replied, "Oh that would never work with Bess. She has a very strong neck."

 

"Then kick her in the ass."

 

Donald McCaig

[Chanse]

I may have had a similar problem with training (probably not the same, but maybe this will help). Archer was getting bored and lacked focus. A set of articles that really helped me out were by Denise Fenzi. Check out her blog (http://denisefenzi.com/) and do a search for "engagement". She has a lot of good advice in there. This is all about getting the dog to ask to work with you, instead of you always trying to get the dog to engage in training. The "give me a break" game from Control Unleashed (CU) is basically doing the same thing.

 

Working on engagement has helped a lot with basically everything. Archer use to pay zero attention to me on walks and now he will check in with me. His loose leash walking has improved considerably. He still tries to pull occasionally, but I just stop moving and he will return to me to continue walking.

 

No comments on the dog social issues, can only wish you luck with that challenge.

[Marlo]

Thanks everyone will try to take suggestions on board. I have had my 2 since pups at 10'/12 weeks. They are very good with each other, play well and behave well in house. No chewing ect...

We have been very firm about pulling..obv not enough..a lot of reading to do ..also a new trainer I think

[Riika]

How I've trained all my dogs not to pull is to just stand still until they release the pressure and look at me. I praise them, then walk on. As soon as the leash tightens, repeat. When first starting, every time you take a step you will be stopping and waiting for up to several seconds for them to give. Just be patient and take one dog out at a time.

[waffles]

I have always just praised for walking on my left side. Start with a long line so the dog can make mistakes without continuing to pull. Click/treat for walking at your side. If they go ahead,recall click/treat when they turn towards you. I praise for any attention given to me while walking,not that I want them focused solely on me on a walk but I want them to know that I am a part of the equation when we walk. Whereas most dogs that pull, could not care less that you are back there getting dragged around.

 

Definitely train with one dog at a time. They are used to pulling now and it is rewarding to do so. If they are stuck at the end of the leash with you standing there, wait for them to look back at you then click/treat or verbal praise and walk in the other direction. When the dog catches up to you at your side,again click/treat. You want the dog to learn th at pressure on the leash means they should check back in with you instead of "pull harder" as most dogs think. Start in a field, without many distractions with no destination in mind, just walk around figure 8's or roam around without a straight line destination.

[highway61]

Example: I was walking my two offlead dogs beside a friend's pulling Border Collie. When friend asked me how to prevent pulling I suggested a simple leash pop.

 

She replied, "Oh that would never work with Bess. She has a very strong neck."

 

"Then kick her in the ass."

 

Donald McCaig

 

LOL!

 

I ONCE tried the "kick in the ass" but it didn't work with my defiant and somewhat fearful BC. He just turned back at me growling and snapping toward the leg that kicked him (of course its not really a kick but more push from my foot). He and I are works in progress and while I'm prone to an occasional leash pop and only when harnessed, he never gets kicked.

[Marlo]

What is a leash pop?

[mum24dog]

For some it will be no more than a slight tug on the lead to get a dog's attention, for other a hefty yank on the lead that pulls the dog off it's feet. It depends who is using the term.

[Marlo]

Well then we leash pop a lot...but I think they have got into the way of thinking this is how I walk lol

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Ms. Marlo,

 

Any correction you do "a lot" is no correction. It's nagging. A correction will break the dog's focus - make it rethink its -by now - ingrained habit. Startle the dog, sure, but don't hurt it. If the leash pop has become nagging try a sudden yell. You might also try some longe line work. If the dog is responding to everything BUT you, you need to do something about that.

 

Donald McCaig

[mbc1963]

Marlo,

 

I don't have a puller but my trainer is very good at stopping things he doesn't want - he simply teaches the dogs that doing the unwanted behavior ALWAYS loses the dog what it wants. With pulling, he simply stands in his tracks (as Riika described above) to show the dog that pulling gets them the opposite of their desired rush forward. He also sometimes turns 180 and goes in the opposite direction of the pull.

 

The trainer will teach puppies not to jump to greet by simply walking toward the tethered pups, and walking away as soon as they break a sit. The puppies all learn in a couple minutes that if they want to greet him, they just have to stay seated. It's really reliable and simple.

 

Good luck with the socializing piece - my old boy played a bit when young, but really didn't love most dogs. He didn't want them to rush his face, and would tell them off VERY CLEARLY if they didn't read his more subtle body language cues. He was very obedient and would do a down-stay forever if I asked him to, so I could greet other dogs and play with them. But I could never let other dogs rush at him, and had to warn other owners for ten years that he wouldn't be friendly.