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Curious about genetics and coat length


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According to Anadune database I can expect to get 1-2 smooth coated puppies by breeding my rough coated bitch to a rough coated stud dog. (They both have smooth coated mothers) But I have been told that it is impossible to have a smooth coat from that cross - basically that one HAS to be smooth....just curious which is correct....

 

Thanks!

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Welcome!

 

And I am just curious to know if you have read the "read this first" to understand the philosophy of these boards, particularly with regards to breeding. If you haven't, you might want to do so.

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Thank you, I understand that the Boards are to help improve the breed and I really just wanted to come to a place where I hoped I could trust the answer to my question was correct. Neither here nor there if the resulting litter is all smooth, all rough or a mix.

 

If this is not the correct forum to ask this question I am happy to ask elsewhere.

 

Again, thank you.

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I think people here want to understand your reasons for asking the question. Are you breeding for appearance or have your dogs proven the working ability that we consider paramount to any other considerations for breeding?

Working in the veterinary field, I can assure anyone on these boards that appearance is not a consideration on my list of requirements for a breeding dog. LOL. My breeding criteria: Temperament, work ethic, natural ability to do the job she was bred to do, orthopedic soundness, genetic soundness.

 

Yes, she works. Agility, primarily because I am better at it than I am at herding, which we do for fun.

 

I understand it is easy to assume that the question at hand could cause someone to think that I am doing this to get a certain color, or coat length or markings...but if that was the case I would breed to a smooth coat, or a dog with dilute coat color, etc...Really, I'm just curious.

 

Thank you

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Welcome!

 

I believe that rough is recessive, meaning two rough coats could only produce other rough coats. Correct me if I'm wrong though!

Thank you. That's what I gathered from others as well. Which is why I was confused by the Anadune site results.

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Is the Anadune site information owner submitted? If so, the (mis)information could simply be the result of mislabeling dogs as smooth when they were rough and vice versa. Obviously incomplete dominance, modifying genes, etc., could complicate matters.

 

I also understood that two roughs would give only rough, though degree of roughness could certainly vary. Bearded is another story, lol, as it apparently can trump the smooth is dominant "rule."

 

If you've read the "Read this First" then you'll know that this forum doesn't support the breeding of sport dogs, though certainly people do it. The only way to preserve working genetics is to select for (and test) them in every generation.

 

J.

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Anadune information could be owner submitted - really we were just using to verify percentage of relation to stud dog and they have a nice database which is free to use for that. The genetic results (coat color/type) just happen to also be calculated as a part of the search. Thank you all.

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No, I don't think you really gave the impression that you were breeding for a particular coat but what concerned me was that I didn't pick up any real feeling that your interest in breeding had anything to do with breeding for working ability - and that has nothing to do with a dog's ability to do anything but stock work. That is why I referred you to "read this first" so that you would understand where the vast majority of people here are coming from with regards to reasons for responsible breeding.

 

Now, what you *do* with your dog (companion, agility, sports, livestock work) is not and never the issue - the issue is that we feel that dogs should only be bred who have proven themselves as worthwhile for breeding by being good stock dogs, in order to maintain the breed for the unique characteristics that made it what it is. Any other activity, while requiring genuine effort and training, is not "the work".

 

Breeding for reasons other than those that are outlined in "read this first" is not considered responsible breeding on these boards, and so is quite a flashpoint in discussions!

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Sue couldn't have said it any better, and my read was the same as hers.

 

Other "work" is fine for the lives of most border collies, but aptitude for sports, SAR, etc. (IOW any other kind of "work") is not supported here as being an ethical parameter for breeding selection.

 

The dog should demonstrate excellence as a working stockdog to be considered for breeding. This proof isn't achieved in an instinct test, casual work or a low level trial. It takes time, work and commitment to bring a dog to the point where it can be considered viable breeding stock.

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I'm probably going to start a fight here, but I must say this. And this is not a hasty, I'm mad, paragraph. I've been thinking of saying this for months.

 

Must we always be so closely scrutinizing every new member that ventures on these boards? How many fresh members have been run off just like this one? And there have been a couple senior members who've bailed for much the same reason! (Maybe more than a couple-the seniors on here now would know.) Why can't we just answer their innocent questions and be done with it? Why start getting all over them about our breeding philosophy when, perhaps, they don't even plan on doing it?

 

The OP never said that they planned on breeding their dog. All they were doing was playing with the Anadune database and their play raised a question. I do stuff like them all the time without ever following through or even planning, on it and actually doing it! Get bored, surf the internet, and find all kinds of stuff. I've bought several goats, bred them, bred the kids, etc. to several generations in my head while surfing the internet and finding does and bucks I like? I have no intention of doing it, I'll just playing around! And yes, sometimes questions arose that I asked on forums, the members of which wouldn't condone the carrying-out of the question, but they don't do this! All they do is answer the question and mind their own business.

 

You know, it's kind of like meeting someone with whom later, you will become good friends with. But right now you are strangers. And you go out for lunch on your first meeting. The person gets in your Dodge Cummins truck, and immediately starts in on you. "Oh, how could you drive this thing? Don't you know how bad it is for the environment? Look at all that black smoke! Oh, you should really get a solar or electric car. If you don't you're such a terrible person."

Maybe you would take that after you had become good friends, but right away? I don't think anybody in this world would.

 

So why can't we just answer their question and let them get acquainted with the atmosphere and people of the boards before setting in? I know, you aren't really attacking anyone and actually try to sound quite courteous. And that is good. But to a new member, it sounds very cold and harsh. I know, because it happened to me when I first joined.

 

I won't reply to any posts made on here-this is just food for the thought and doesn't need any replies.

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When someone comes on here, asking a question that can readily be understood to imply that he/she is looking at breeding a pet, companion, sport, or color dog (as has often happened over the years), it would be doing a disservice to simply answer the question as that would imply that that breeding choice was considered to be just fine. In addition, there are others, new members, non-members, newbies, etc., who would be reading that topic and also might get the impression that that's a fine reason to breed a litter.

 

It is amazing how many people don't read "read this first" until it's mentioned in a topic they start, and that's one reason I often include that in any reply I make to a new member. After all, that's the point of "read this first".

 

No one's ethics were attacked and no one intended to "drive anyone away". My apologies if anyone felt that was my intention.

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I'm sorry Heartful, I tried to diffuse the situation. :( I do hope you might hang around a bit, I always enjoy "meeting" new members and their dogs.

 

Guys, I think we jumped a little too far down her throat. Even if unintentionally. I think things could have been left at the "read this first" message.

 

But I'll stick my foot in my mouth before I make a fool of myself.

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There is a Coat Color and Genetics facebook page that may be able to answer your genetics questions. I do not breed and never intend to, but my BC has interesting colors, so I was checking out this board. I have never posed a question to them. You may find it helpful. They look not just at appearance questions but health testing as well. Many of the questions are from folks who are just curious about their BC.

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I've reread what was written, and all I see are requests for the OP to read the "Read This First" information and explanations of the Board's philosophy, which were simple statements of facts. Oh, and welcomes! I don't see where there was anything offensive written.

 

It was not my aim either to antagonize or to chase anyone away. I was simply trying to provide information. It's unfortunate that offense was taken where none was intended.

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Actually the OP said she was on the Anadune site to "to verify percentage of relation to stud dog," not to mention that the original post talks about what seems to be a planned breeding. At any rate, no one here was ugly to her. And nothing was said that isn't said every time someone asks genetic questions related to breeding. Honestly, I get the "just answer their question and move on" philosophy, but my choice recently has just been to NOT answer at all. I come here less often than I used to, and I answer a lot less. For me personally that's a better choice than facilitating the willy nilly breeding of dogs by "just answering their questions." I'm sure there are folks here who disagree with that, but those who disagree are free to answer any and all questions. What happened to the days when people actually tried to figure out what sort of group they were joining before just making assumptions and then getting their feelings hurt when they find they aren't where they thought they were or wanted to be?

 

J.

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Yeah, I see a lot of 'welcome!', people posted 'read this first', someone answered the question, when Heartfelt asked why people were saying that someone explained and asked about the breeding. Seems fair enough. Further in the discussion people further explained but also to my eyes bent over backwards to be nice about it.

 

 

I can't think of any nicer, friendlier way to do that without actually not giving Heartfelt information. For some people there is no way to tell them something they don't want to hear, without them taking offense. I am sure those people would love for people to just not give them that information. Heartfelt could go to a westie forum and start talking about breeding black westies and people would doubtless give them a much harsher reception than that.

 

If you start talking about breeding dogs that aren't to the most basic aspect of the breed standard, dog people will tell you this. That's expected.

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Well, apparently I am still here, with some encouragement of the admin via several emails back and forth. Thank you to those who have been helpful and to Eileen for her courtesy and patience. And thank you Rikka for your kind reply.

 

In spite of my effort to find the "read this first" I did not do so until after Eileen replied to my email. It just wasn't where I expected it to be. And certainly, had I read it first I would have gone about finding my answer in a different way. But I didn't, so here we are. (Really it should be on the Boards home page, not just on the genetics forum)

 

As an outsider, I encourage you all to put yourself in my shoes. How would you all feel if you joined a forum, lets say photography...You just purchased a really nice camera and took a few photography classes but live in an area where you were limited on really good private instruction....so you join a public forum in hopes of increasing your knowledge. Then you ask a simple question to clarify something for which you have had two answers in regards to what an F stop is....and suddenly are inundated with people exclaiming "Welcome! and then follow it up by asking you why you think you are qualified to have such a nice camera...? (any photographer should know what an F stop is, after all). Does that seem like a warm and fuzzy welcome?

 

There will always be new people. I am not here to diminish the value of a working border collie. I am here in hopes of learning about working border collies. My dog is co-owned and under contract will have at least one litter of puppies. I have been taking herding lessons for one year (which was my choice because I want to be sure she is, in fact, able to what a border collie was bred to do...)So far, my trainer has yet to tell me that my dog does not have what it takes to continue on... She may never be perfectly trained or be able to work on a ranch to "prove" herself, but she puts forth an honest effort and is very thoughtful about her work. That may never be enough for many of you but honestly, there isn't really much I can do about that.

 

At any rate, my question has been answered so perhaps we can agree to move past this and on to more productive discussions.

 

So, cheers to you all. I am officially signing off on this topic. If you want to reply, please send me a pm. :blink:

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