Not sure what the next step is, here.

[alligande]

I think the suggestion to work on your own relaxation techniques is an excellent one, sounds like Molly is making great progress. Now that I am teaching beginner dogs I am observing how the relationship between the owner and dog really affects how the dog reacts. We have a couple of reactive young border collies and when we separate them from their owners they are very different as we are relaxed with them so we work on both the dogs skills and trying to give the owner confidence.

[CptJack]

Just a little update here, since we're back in class after a month break.

The break, + a couple of new dogs to the class (well, dogs she hasn't seen since Feb. or March) meant she was high as a kite and we had some reactivity going on but honestly... I don't care. I'm not sure that counts as relaxation exactly, but I've really realized she's not ever going to go after another dog or a person. She might lunge and bark, but that's as far as it's going to go. When she's set up in front of her sequence/obstacle and the leash comes off she holds the stay, does what she needs to do, does it enthusiastically and happily and lets me leash her again.

 

At the very, very worst she's going to seek out the instructor and try and climb her like a tree because she LOVES our trainer and apparently forgets she knows what manners are.

Then she'll go back on leash and bark about another dog staring at her too long, two other dogs barking at each other, a toad, or someone outside on the phone, but it just... doesn't mean all that much to me anymore. I'm not sure if it's going to stick or not, but at some point the fact that she is absolutely NOT going to blow me off and hurt another dog or person has sunk in and my attitude has become very, very "Eh. It's a thing."

Not that I'm not watching and redirecting or whatever, but mostly I just... don't care all that much. It'll keep getting better or it won't. Whatever.

[CptJack]

Oh, and we have a Show 'n Go on Sunday that will be Molly's first. No clue how that's going to go, but I'm looking forward to it no matter what the outcome. It'll be the first time I've brought both dogs to anything, so it'll be a good learning experience on that front, too.

[borasaurus]

There's a dog in our class who sounds to be on the same level of reactivity as Molly. She'll try to lunge at other dogs and bark at them, but when she runs the course she's perfectly fine most of the time. She really likes Kieran for some reason (actually, it's funny because females always seem to like him).

 

I was surprised that at the last class her handler didn't even participate. Well, she tried, then took her off to the side to work on "watch me." Then she ended up just leaving the class completely to watch from the car. I didn't think she was being particularly ill-behaved, but she's definitely gotten more reactive as of late. Maybe I've just been spending too much time around flyball dogs, so the pulling and barking doesn't get to me as much.

[CptJack]

I've left a couple of classes early, either because the work was more than she could handle at that point (ie: recalling past another dog running the opposite direction) or once because she just wasn't with me at all. Very early classes/the first time she was in foundations she didn't do a whole lot with the other dogs and just stayed behind barriers. It's been quite a while since either of those happened.

 

Honestly, every time I try and follow the 'rules' for reactivity, we end up with more lunging and barking then when I don't.

 

Current dog training methods say that if the dog reacts it is over threshold and cannot learn/listen and you should expect nothing of them in that state. You create distance between you and that thing until the dog can focus, stop reacting and then ask for something and reward.

 

Experience with my dog showed me that creating distance resulted in a dog who thought that barking and growling at things made them go away/got her away from them and that the BEST way I have of getting her attention on me instead of the other dogs is to work with her/teach her/give her commands.

 

Look At That made her obsessive about other dogs in the environment. Watch me, was asking her to 'turn her back' on something she perceived as threatening without doing anything to take her mind off that threat, and just kept her on edge, tense, and squirrelly.

 

I have no doubt every one of those methods works fine, but either they don't work for my dog or I don't get them well enough to make them work for my dog.

What *does* work is to ask for work and reward the work, to reward and praise for spontaneous calm checking out of other dogs (No cue - cuing it was the issue), and when reaction happens refocusing her on me via active commands, movement, or play, but NOT asking her to sit there and stare me in the eye. Glance at me, sometimes, but only as a prelude to something more demanding that truly moves her BRAIN off whatever.

 

Honestly? She's pretty good. Not perfect, no, but she reacts a heck of a lot less than she doesn't react, she's fully capable of standing calmly within 2 feet of another dog or in a group of dogs, and even relaxing last night and flopping over on her side and doing rollovers as one of the commands to keep her mind busy (that is NOT happening when she's super stressed).

I mean, I am glad I did the barriers and counter conditioning at first, because she needed it. IT's just at this point what's working or seems to be is basically ignoring the dogs and working on teaching her that nothing out there has any impact on what we're doing/that they're irrelevant. Long term I would probably get a better outcome if I stuck with the programs, but I'm not going to and I suspect I'll still end up with what I want, by the time she's 2 or 3.

[alligande]

Just a thought, do you use a crate while the other dogs are training, I used a very inexpensive soft crate that had "curtains" and I used to pop Brody in between exercises, and turn the door to a wall so he could not see the other dog running. I did not just leave him there, I sat with him as if he was on leash with me, we talked, I would ask for him for nose touch but it kept him from getting high as a kite.

Like you I did not follow all the proctols as they are meant to be followed, Brody was already 4 when we started agility and I wanted to get stuck in - for him it was really exposure and getting used to the scene I think that had the most effect.

[CptJack]

I do have a collapsible crate and intend to use it pretty heavily for our outdoor practices, trials, and the fun matches, but I can not for the life of me figure out how to use it in class. We usually end up in different places depending on the direction the other dogs are running, because there just isn't a lot of space, and I'm not sure how much luck I'd have moving the crate with me. I often even end up across the building from my training bag with treats/toys from one exercise to the next. I'll keep an eye toward a location I can stick her for next week and see if I can figure it out, though, because it would help her to have a 'safe space' with limited stimulus to unwind, I am sure.

Part of the reason for my confidence is definitely exposure (I wasn't sure where I was going to get that a month ago). We're going to have lots and lots of opportunity for it in the next month or so. We've got a trial or fun match 3 of the next 4 weekends and the 4th is a disc dog training session. Plus weekly classes. Then we have another trial and another fun match and trial next month, plus weekly classes, plus the disc-dog meet-ups and training sessions, and at some point probably club wide run throughs/practices.

Now the trials and club practices are for my other dog to run but she can go, be crated with me there (or my husband while I"m running Other Dog), worked and played with some and still get the exposure. I am throwing her in the fun matches, though, because that's exposure of a different sort, but mostly I'm just going to drag her to all the dog events I can find.

[alligande]

Just have a chat with the trainer and ask where they think you should set it up, I am sure they will work with you.

[CptJack]

So. Molly went to the show 'n go tonight. We were there for four hours and she got two turns in the ring. We didn't do, or even try, a whole lot of agility. We just did the big outside horseshoe of obstacles. No crosses, no weaves, nothing much. Agility wise she was pretty 'meh'. She ran off a few times, wasn't listening super well, just basic baby dog stuff. Well, basic baby dog stuff with a side of her stressing high, and she was stressed.

 

BUT.

She chilled in her crate for most of the night. She had minimal incidents of reactivity, and probably 90% of them were related to another dog going off and her responding. She held her start-line stays. And when I say she chilled in her crate I mean she actually *chilled* in her crate.

I'm more proud of her for that than I am my little novice dog tearing up an elite course and impressing the pants off people.

 

We've got a ways to go, but she did good. We'll get there.

 

Have a picture.

[CptJack]

I also wanted to say that the more I am around young Border Collies in agility, the less stressed out I am about Molly.

 

I think there is ONE youngish BC who isn't a complete nutball in almost the exact same ways Molly is, and that one is still over 2 and male. The rest of them are all kind of insane, no matter who owns them. And some of them are worse than she is.

It's probably wrong that it makes me feel better, but it makes me feel better.

[Maralynn]

Insane Border Collies *shudders*

 

But hey, you're doing something right with Molly!!

 

And off topic for the thread but how is the harness working for you? Thinking about getting something with a handle for Kolt as he's weird about leash pressure on his collar when he's out in public. And he's outgrown his Front Range one....

[CptJack]

Well, I guess to pat my own back I might take it too far and be too stressed, but I do at least try and manage her. I'm noticing some other people don't even SEE the issue when their dog is at the end of their leash losing their little minds. It makes me feel better about myself and my dog, anyway.

 

That harness is probably my favorite piece of dog gear to date. It doesn't fit her perfectly because she's narrow in the chest, and all harnesses fit her a bit weird, but I love it. It's super fast and easy on and off (one buckle, then over her head), it looks good, and I use the heck out of the handle as a means of close control when I need it. It looks good, it's sturdy and well made, and doesn't chafe anywhere. I think I'm going to get one for my GSD X. I don't like the smaller ones without the handle, but for the bigger pair I can't think of much I'd change.

[simba]

I just noticed the sign and I love it! What a good idea.

[CptJack]

I just noticed the sign and I love it! What a good idea.

 

It's been the best thing for her, ever. It buys her space, and in buying her space it's building her confidence. Just to know that she's not going to be messed with, and that frees up her brain to pay attention to me.

 

I. Love. It.

[CptJack]

 

Better shot of the signage.

[CptJack]

I'm just going to turn this into a "Molly learns agility" thread and keep updating it. Maybe it will be useful for someone else who's struggling with these sorts of issues in the future.

 

We actually had a really good class last night. She still reacts pretty good when we walk into class, but she seems to be recovering and focusing faster from week to week. Still had a few periods of reacting to the other young BC in class, but those are happening less frequently and it's easier to get her back with me when they do happen. Whether it's easier because she's getting less intense or I'm getting more experienced with handling them, I neither know nor particularly care.

 

Agility wise, it was a great night. I actually managed a pretty nice front cross in one sequence (my front crosses with her are usually really awkward, because getting where I need to be is just hard), and we actually had a moment in there toward the end of class where I felt like she was *working with me* and really listening, instead of feeling like we were right at the edge of totally losing control.

 

Basically, I'm seeing some good progress.

Club practice tomorrow, and she'll come along. Probably won't do agility, but she'll be there.

[CptJack]

That's Molly, at agility practice.

 

The picture's crap, but what's in the background? Yeah. I'm so proud I could cry.

[CptJack]

...Molly did a whole course at a show 'n go tonight. Oh, she didn't do it perfectly. Ran around the a-frame because I tried to use a lead out that was too long (didn't transition from Kylie well, my fault), missed a discrimination, zipped through a hoop from the wrong side, you know, stuff.

But she did an entire course at a show 'n go, and overall she did it well. She stayed with me. She came back when we needed to rework something/try again. She stayed happy. She had fun.

 

She reacted a little bit, sure, but a very little bit and SHE STAYED WITH ME THROUGH AN ENTIRE COURSE.

 

We're starting to build trust in each other - Or, well, we've been started for a while but it's starting to have some more outward expression. It's definitely paying off.

 

And it's way, way overdue.

[Root Beer]

Awesome!! That's a big step!! Congratulations!!

[gcv-border]

Congratulations to you and Molly! She looks like she is having fun.

[CptJack]

Thanks guys! I'm pretty pleased with how things are going. That vest has actually been a huge help for this, primarily because it communicates to people what she needs - and while it *DRAWS* attention from a certain group of the general public (they get over it, but they notice) the people she's around in agility are dog people and they are so, so fantastic for giving her the space she needs and that's helping her build confidence, rapidly.

I think, come January, she's going to be 'ready' to trial. By which I mean she's going to be ready to be happy, have fun, and stay in the ring. Which is all I really want for her right now.

Heck, happy and fun and safe is all I want for her, at all, really.

[CSW]

CptJack,

 

Your posts give me hope. My girl is where yours was.

[CptJack]

Well, just to keep myself honest it's not a smooth linear upswing. Next to last class (2 weeks ago?) she blew me off so she could go run into another dog's face and yell at her (that dog had been running amok right before Molly had and Molly has always hated that dog) but no harm done. To the other dog. To my nerves, well. We left the class at that point and I had no intention of going back at all.

We were encouraged to come back for the last class of Intermediate by the instructor (I was ready to throw in the towel), sat most of it out but ran the course at the end, with the other dogs behind chain link and behind chain link and she did all right again. Little overly excited after watching other dogs run for so long and not real great on the agility portion of things but she stayed with me.

 

Our trainer's known her since she last January (when Molly was 7 months old) and thinks this is an issue we can handle so we're working with a behaviorist and on these issues exclusively for a couple of months with the goal of being able to line up with the other dogs and we'll take it from there. I don't really know what her issue is, at this stage.

 

On one hand, her reactivity is clearly becoming more of an issue since she DID blow me off for the first time ever, and went after another dog. That's not something I'm okay with. Conversely, her reactivity IN GENERAL is dropping way off. It's like it's just concentrating on certain dogs/dogs exhibiting particular types of behavior.

I could tear my hair out.

[Jumpin Boots]

Is it possible for you to take semi-private lessons instead of group classes? Timber is dog reactive, we did private lessons for about 6 months, then have been doing semi-private lessons w/ a friend of mine for about 18 month which has been great for him. I tried an intro class once when he was around 12 months and we ended up working outside of the arena, which was really still too much for him at that point.

 

I have found that as his understanding and enjoyment of the game of agility has increased, his attention to other dogs has decreased. However, when he was more in the novice stages of agility, he wasn't sure that the value of the 'work' of agility was higher than the distractions of the other dogs. This probably explains part of the reason that he has never had a major issue with other dogs around stock, the keenness to work stock is above everything, though it doesn't hurt that he only has to deal with other working dogs and not bouncy -doodles and such.

[CptJack]

The only dog Molly had an issue with by the time we were done with classes was another working bred BC bitch. She was intense, loud, often at the end of her leash, barked a lot and was prone to running away from her handler to visit the other dogs. She never got near Molly, but Molly cannot stand that sort of behavior. Not that she's a big fan of dogs, anyway, but she's willing to ignore most of them now. That particular dog pushed her buttons hard.

 

The plan right now is actually to continue to play with agility as we can (lessons, at home, whatever) to build value and fun in it. I'm just taking a mental break and working on some other stuff for a while. How long a while? I don't know. I'll look at it again when she's about 3 and see where we're at. If I notice we've made sufficient progress before then we'll do something earlier, but I'm tired of beating my head against this brick wall. I'm sure she's sick of it, too.