Agression at the Vet

[medic09]

Our vet goes so far as to keep disposable leashes in the waiting room. We always go in leashed. When I used to bring my Lab to a country vet (who did mostly large animals), he didn't require leashes on most dogs. He knew a lot of the local working dogs, and most owners didn't mind either. The time my Lab got shot apparently, he just relied on me to control him.

 

I was interested that alligande was the first one to mention a muzzle. Nothing wrong with it, and not necessarily a sign that the dog is a problem. A dog in pain can be a bit unpredictable, even the gentlest - as we find out with Golan last week. When I have provided field care to dogs, such as our SAR dogs, I have always put on a simple muzzle first. Our vet doesn't usually bother; but I have seen them muzzle other dogs and it just makes sense.

 

It does sound to me like the vet in the OP must've been cranky and a bit overreacting, unless there's something else we don't know. Vets have to expect a dog can be little reactive. I do make it a point to get all our dogs accustomed at home to being handled and lifted and manipulated and what have you. I also look for excuses when they're young to just go into the vet and weight them and get a treat or something else - so they don't associate the vet's only with actual visits for care. It's nice too, because the staff come to recognize my dogs and greet them as old friends when we do come in for care.

[Maralynn]

Most vet offices that I've been in require animals to be leashed or on a carrier. But after having 2 reactive dogs I don't even take my dog into the building until there is a room available. And if I need to wait for the bill then I'll take them back to the car before paying. I wait in the exam room for at least a few minutes before the vet comes in and it's so much easier to have fun with my dog without other stressed dogs nearby. And they seem pretty relaxed by the time the vet shows up

 

When I ended up at the emergency vet with Kolt last month we were waiting in a room about an hour. But with no other dogs around I ended up with a dog asleep in my lap. They must have handled him pretty well when they took him back to get checked out because he got a sore foot messed with and temperature taken and still had a happy attitude coming back to me. And he was ready to say "hi" to the vet when he came in the room a few min later.

[Riika]

CptJack, you have a very good point.

[GentleLake]

The vet I switched to not only has a back hall and rear exit -- each exam room has 2 doors, one from the waiting area and another leading to the back hall/rear exit -- and they also check people out (take payments) when they're still in the exam room so there are no animals coming back through the waiting area. It's a really good setup and it means the waiting area is usually pretty darned quiet. I've rarely had to wait with more than one other person/animal waiting, and that was very short.

 

Now the free roam office cats, on the other hand. . . . not so great when you have high prey drive dogs who want to kill cats, and I do have one of them. She's finally old enough now that it's not a problem, but believe me, it has been in the past.

[CptJack]

I do leave Molly in the car when I can, but that's not always possible. The car that's big enough for her in a crate can't be left running, and so she needs either someone with us to watch her in the other car, or weather that won't give her heat stroke in a parking lot. We also do our best to go in off hours, though that's not always possible because of overlap with our own schedules. Getting her out before payment also requires two people be there (and taking time off work if we make it happen during a quieter time).

It's a thing. We're working on it. Taking a collapsible crate for her to wait in helps, some, and she's not going to wig out at other leashed dogs she KNOWS she can keep some distance from - and of course I do better, too, which helps. We absolutely do muzzle her at the vet just because it stacks so many triggers for her (unwanted touching, feeling bad, too much stimulation and activity) that she has trouble coping.

 

We do the best we can with it, but sometimes she's just got to be in the waiting room until she can go to an exam room. Until we get somewhere with it, well.... She needs the vet when she needs the vet.

Free roaming office cats, I do not even begin to understand as a thing.

[Maralynn]

Fwiw, my post wasn't aimed at anyone, just throwing out general ideas that have worked for me in case someone might find them helpful. Btdt with reactivity and it's no fun

[rushdoggie]

I don't think your dog has an aggression problem, but mine does (he has fear aggression). I'll tell you how we handle it.

 

1. He learned to wear a muzzle at home, in public and in the presence of strangers (in that order). He can take soft treats (though he usually doesn't want to) with it on. We practiced putting it on, wearing it, taking it off until he no longer had a big reaction to wearing it.

 

2. We practiced restraint. I don't expect him to really relax or enjoy it, but he learned that these things happen and he doesn't die. I can restrain him, and when I am able to I do, but we practiced having others do it too (while he was muzzled). We did a "vet checks rear end" restraint, a blood draw of leg and jugular, a head hold so vet can examine eyes and ears. He learned to accept this.

 

3. We always see the same vet except in emergencies. I am lucky I have a vet who has a wonderful bedside manner, neither being fast and aggressive nor cooing and hesitant. My dog learned that this is the guy who does stuff, and its all OK.

 

4. I don't spend any more time in the waiting room than I have to. We park where I can see the door, wait in the car and when they are ready the receptionist pokes her head out and waves and we go direct to the exam room. I also try darn hard to get the first appointment of the day or after lunch. My vet accepts walk ins and the wait time gets awful sometimes.

 

We are matter of fact: nope, we are going in here: stand on the scale, sit stay, then to a room. Mom puts on the muzzle and lifts him on the table, he lets the vet touch him. When its over, the vet leaves the exam room, I put him down (much easier when the vat has left) and we go to the car. If its hot and there is a line, I take him home and stop to pay later.

[emilyfalk]

Personally, I think all dog owners should take the immense amount of time to train their dog to be just as trustworthy off leash as on.

I think all dog owners should do a lot of things, but that is far from reality

 

My question is also a "why": why do you feel the need to demonstrate your dog's trustworthiness off leash in my waiting room? Put a leash on the dog and let it hang slack or even drag on the ground if you don't have a free hand (at least you could step on it if needed). I respect a client's training, but honestly, I find it rude. Great point made about someone else feeling uncomfortable around a stranger's loose dog in a close-quarters public space.

 

Sure, if you're the only one in the whole building and the staff is OK with it, have at it to unleash your dog if you feel the need.

 

And re: muzzles. There should not be a negative stigma associated with them at the vet's. Dogs are scared, people are scared, things hurt, it's totally understandable. It doesn't mean you have a mean, untrained, or aggressive dog. It means that you are being responsible for the situation and actually saving everyone a lot of extra stress. If anyone asks, just explain how helpful the muzzle is for the scary vet visit and isn't needed during normal activities.

[simba]

I'm with CptJack and Gentlelake. You might know your dog, and you might actually have the knowledge to assess that. But most of the people I've come across who THINK they are in that position, are not. I have no way of distinguishing you from them, and neither does my dog.

 

Heck, you might be one of those people with the perfectly friendly, well-behaved, biddable dogs whose owner feels it's okay to let their dog approach and greet mine suddenly- and she might be frightened and in pain and more likely to lash out, since, yeah, vet.

 

The dogs have all been jumped or threatened by off-lead out-of-control dogs before, including for example three golden retrievers who pinned my small dog screaming. They know if there's a lead on or not, they're not stupid, they will calmly pass an aggressive dog on-lead when it would be idiocy to do that with an off-lead dog. The dogs' stress levels go up when they see an off-lead dog in an enclosed space. Sure, given a few minutes of seeing that that dog is under control they will calm down. But in a high-stress environment already that can lead to panic initially, for a small frightened elderly dog who does not need that.

 

It's not about your dog or how well-behaved he is, I would trust people on these boards more than the average person for that one. It's simply about what's appropriate for the environment. I can't see any reason not to just clip on a leash at the door.

 

I'd agree with Emilyfalk on the muzzle idea, it's not about the dog being a bad dog, it's just a sensible precaution for a good animal which may be useful in the future.

 

Edit: wait wait wait wait back it up a bit. There are free roaming office cats? Those words can't mean what I think they mean... can they?

[CptJack]

Edit: wait wait wait wait back it up a bit. There are free roaming office cats? Those words can't mean what I think they mean... can they?

 

My vet's office has one. It roams the waiting room and hallways. I hate it. My dogs don't care, but it just seems like such a horrible idea.

[medic09]

My vet's office has one. It roams the waiting room and hallways. I hate it. My dogs don't care, but it just seems like such a horrible idea.

I've seen this before. The cats usually know to stay out of reach. Our vet divided the practice into 'cat side' and 'dog side', because cats were freaked out by the dogs. Since then, I've only noticed the clinic cat on the cat side. Don't know how they keep him there, since the sides are connected.

[GentleLake]

Edit: wait wait wait wait back it up a bit. There are free roaming office cats? Those words can't mean what I think they mean... can they?

 

Yes, they can. There are often several at my vet's office, often cats that are up for adoption. It has not made me happy and I've told them when we come in that I won't be responsible if one of them comes too close.

 

Actually, this isn't the first practice I've gone to that's had free roaming cats.

 

Given that some dogs do have high prey drives, I think it's kinda stupid, TBH. And, honestly, I don't think it's very considerate of clients who do have high prey drive dogs to have to deal with it.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Emily writes: "from the viewpoint of a vet, I would encourage you and everyone else to consider having your dogs on leash in the waiting room. You may have control of your dogs, but who knows what may walk through that door (talking dogs AND people). What happens if another dog jumps yours while you are chatting with the receptionist, paying your bill, however you may become temporarily distracted."

 

From the vet's standpoint that's a sensible precaution and I bet most vets insist on it On the rare occasions I'm at a vet's who doesn't know me or my dog(s), I attach a string leash to their collar and let it dangle.

 

Those vets and merchants who let me bring in offlead dogs are showing me a courtesy and to reciprocate, I must neither cause nor be part of any disturbance in their practice/business. I cannot be distracted while chatting to the receptionist or paying the bill or . . . No different really when my dogs are offlead in the motel parking lot. Dangerous ground.

 

When I bring my slightly obedient sheep guarding dogs to the vet, not only are they on leash, I bring them in by a rear door so they cause no commotion in the lobby. If its just a shot or blood draw I have the tech come out to the car.

 

In the ordinary vet practice, most dogs will be poorly or untrained and I understand why vets want them under physical control. Like I said, my vet and I have known each other for thirty some years and I respect his medical skills as he respects and trusts my ability to not cause problems in his offices.

 

Donald McCaig

[mbc1963]

I'm on the "leash the dogs" side. For the sake of my old dog, who would overreact and snark when any other dog got too close, and for the sake of my new dog, who is just shy and scared of everything, and doesn't need off-leash dogs added to the list of scary things at the vet.

 

I always muzzled my old boy at the vet when I first got him -and for several years after it was no longer necessary. There was no shame in it at all - it stayed in his notes and new techs would ask about it every time they took his temperature until our last visit. Seemed very reasonable to me!

 

I recently met a lady with a lab who had a muzzle on. I asked her if it was safe for me to meet the dog, and she said, "Oh yes - it's not so she won't bite! It's so she won't eat everything she sees on the ground." Apparently the dog had eaten many intestine-blocking items, and even in her old age needed to be protected from her own bad choices.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Please allow me to correct what may be a misapprehension. My dogs -on or off leash - do not benefit from nor are improved by greeting unfamiliar dogs or humans. I may let them socialize at sheepdog trials - if the other dogs' handler permits/likes it (some do/some don't) or may not. I (sometimes) allow civilians to pet them because unless my dog is spooky, nippy, etc, saying "no"in the motel corridor is more trouble than it's worth. Dogs and I grin and bear it. Last year, I had a mild kerfuffle in the vet's waiting room when a tech who loves my dogs approached uninvited to meetn'greet my new dog who was offlead at the vet for the first time and I told the tech, "Please don't. He's not reliable."

 

I don't care how far the dogs roam when we're walking on the farm - so long as they check back and I don't have to call them to go home or back to the truck. When my dogs are offlead in public places they stick tight. In my vet's they are tucked under the bench beside my legs as far away from other dogs/cats as I can sit. They will not greet your old/nervous/frightened/ill-trained dog and I will make damn sure your dog doesn't get close to them.

 

Donald McCaig

[Tommy Coyote]

What drives me crazy is people with dogs on long leashes that let their dogs just run up to other dogs and people. They always say not to worry their dogs are friendly.

 

My dogs are not very socialized and I always keep them as far away from everyone as possible. I don't know for sure how they will react and I don't want trouble. So far they are fine with the vet but if they weren't I would use a muzzle.

 

 

Besides, some of those dogs are sick. I just keep mine away.

 

Lots of clinics have clinic cats wandering around. Tommy is not trustworthy with cats. I let her watch them but I keep her on a short leash and hold on tight.

[CptJack]

My thing honestly isn't even meeting the other dogs. It's that my dog is going to flip 90% MORE in a confined space with an off leash dog than one on a leash. Like someone else said, she can see a leash and she isn't stupid. She knows a dog on a leash is restrained and knows that one off leash may approach. She doesn't know how well trained your dogs are, and neither do I! If the dogs are leash trained, does attaching a leash actually hurt the dog? Even if they're not and stay with you, just put the leash on the ground and let it drag so you can step on it or someone else can and both my dog and the owner at the other end are reassured.

 

I just don't see any benefit to 'my dog is off leash at the vet's' besides an ego stroke for the owner. Which is really just not useful.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Each and every ordinary dog understands perfectly well which strange dog(s) leashed or unleashed present a threat although its worried human may signal his/her alarm.

 

My dogs aren't trained on leash and leashes aren't my default either in private or public. Yes, there are times when they're appropriate. (After my farm truck had a flat I walked down the Interstate median strip with two dogs attached to my suspenders because I didn't have leashes with me that day. Never again.) I usually bring my sheepdogs from the trial field to the ready blind on leash because I don't want to give them extraneous commands just before they run.

 

For those whose training begins on leash, it becomes the default. Often leashers will say something like: "But what if your off leash dog bolted across a busy street because a bitch in season was on the other side, got hit and yadda,yadda.

 

I'd say, "That'll do!" and my dog wouldn't cross the street. Voice is my default.

 

I dislike unnecessary tools and haven't developed the leash handling skills many of you have. For me, leashes are inconvenient. Am I proud my dogs can be off leash: does it make me a big man? Nope. Most sheepdogs are off leash and I've seen some who've never worn a collar.

 

Donald McCaig

[simba]

Again, my dog is nervous around unleashed dogs. She will relax after a while if the dog is calm and does not approach her, but she is instantly nervous when she sees them.

 

It's not travelling down the lead- she checks with me, nudges me on the leg, if she sees an unleashed dog of any demeanour, because it's something she's worried about. It's not a question of training or lack of exposure- it's that she is correctly able to identify which dog is in a better position to be a threat, a restrained or unrestrained dog.

 

Even if that is true, the population in a vet's office are often not 'ordinary dogs'. Strays with no history someone's brought in, the untrained, the anxious, and everyone already stressed beyond an ordinary situation. It shouldn't just be well-trained, 'ordinary' dogs who are able to visit the vet.

 

When there's no real reason not to use a lead in that specific situation, when there are good reasons to use it, then why not leash up when there's other animals there?

 

Edit: plus there are the owners of small animals and birds, who often have had no reason to learn dog body language. If it was a market, a festival, a bookie, a pub, a bookshop, a library, I'd have no problem with it. I accept that your dogs are well-behaved. But there are good, valid reasons to have dogs on-leash in a waiting room when there are other animals.

[CptJack]

My dog does agility, off leash and around off leash dogs on a weekly or biweekly basis and does just fine. My dog is off leash on a regular basis and is actually really, really good off leash. I still put one on her when I go into the vet's office. My other dogs are utterly non-reactive and well trained on leash and off. All of them hike, swim, walk and play and work off leash in various capacities. I put THEM on leashes when going into the vet's office too.

 

However, she DID get attacked by someone who had their dog off leash in a location that no dog had any business being off leash (a pet supply store that allows dogs), and being in a confined space with unknown dogs who aren't leashed upset her. Furthermore, we are at a VETS OFFICE, which is a place all dogs go - from the recently rescued off the streets, to young puppies, to feral, to the superbly trained - and that is a confined space.

 

Even if my anxiety in that situation (sick/in pain dog who is already stressed at the vet and has little tolerance for strange off leash dogs OR rude dogs when not actively working) is transmitting to the dog - SO? I think it's a pretty reasonable thing to be anxious about, given that I, again, don't know you or your dog from Adam. All I know is there's an off leash dog in a vet's office and that if it approaches my stressed, possibly ill or in pain, dog she is going to (at least) snark, and that if the dog doesn't accept correction/back off signal well there's going to be a dog fight. I don't know that it's not going to approach. I don't know that it will be just fine with having my dog snap at it. I don't know that it's not carrying 18 diseases I don't want my dog to have.

 

Attach a freaking leash to your dog as a visual cue to other people and other dogs that your dog is under control and restrained/not going to be coming near us. There is literally NO BENEFIT to you not doing so, except the ability to say 'My dog is so well trained it can be off leash in a vet's office'. Which comes with the subtext of "And I don't care at all about rules, other people, or other animals" which does not exactly make anyone look good.

 

It's just - What?

[CptJack]

Edit: plus there are the owners of small animals and birds, who often have had no reason to learn dog body language. If it was a market, a festival, a bookie, a pub, a bookshop, a library, I'd have no problem with it. I accept that your dogs are well-behaved. But there are good, valid reasons to have dogs on-leash in a waiting room when there are other animals.

 

This is really the crux of it, for me, yup. I mentioned it above and then rehashed it here, but realized I was going in circles so deleted most.

 

I will add that dogs are *required* by law in most areas to see a vet either every year or every three years - thanks, rabies - which further imparts that ALL dogs need to be able to go to the vet. Including ones who aren't trained and ones with new owners who can't read dog body language.

 

 

 

[highway61]

...It's that my dog is going to flip 90% MORE in a confined space with an off leash dog than one on a leash...

 

You're definitely in the norm here but I will say my BC is just the opposite! He has some fear aggression that we're working on and he's okay with other dogs; if they're not NOT on leash. Yes, he's deranged, just saying...

[urge to herd]

About unleashed/unrestrained dogs, cats, whathaveyou in the vet's waiting room - disaster waiting to happen.

 

Those waiting rooms are very, very stressful for a lot of critters, even if they are just there to get a yearly exam. Ordinary dogs can act in very un-ordinary ways in such places. I'm flat out not quick enough to protect my dog from somebody else's frantic dog who goes a little nuts from the stress, nor do I want to get caught between 2 or more biting, snarling canines in an attempt to separate them.

 

Dogs who are ill or in pain from injuries are already stressed - they are not in 'ordinary' shape. It's a courtesy to everyone, staff, other humans and other patients, that all pets be somehow safely restrained. And, in my mind, it's an 'If I'm gonna ask others to leash their dogs, then I need to leash mine.' sort of thing.

 

I've run into too many clueless humans who told me, "He/she is friendly," while he/she is standing there, stiffening up and staring daggers at my dog. I don't trust the general dog-owning population. Nor do I want to sit around waiting my turn in a room full of stressed out, unrestrained dogs or cats.

 

Gibbs is usually very, very good with other dogs. I won't take a chance on it in the waiting room - I don't want to be responsible for injury to a human or pet.

 

I wouldn't enter a veterinary waiting room that had unleashed or unrestrained animals in it. It only takes one frantic dog to set off a sequence of dangerous events.

 

Taking it a little further, such an event could be the end of a veterinarian's business. The risks are enormous for everyone.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

 

ETA - I see I rehashed some of what others have written. Time to stop beating this particular dead horse.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Capt Jack writes (in part): "All I know is there's an off leash dog in a vet's office and that if it approaches my stressed, possibly ill or in pain, dog she is going to (at least) snark . . ."

 

I quite agree that a loose, uncontrolled dog in a vet clinic isn't fair to other clients who don't know the dog especially since they - and their dog - are in a high stress situation.

 

But, as I've written, my dogs don't approach other dogs. As they lie quietly, any sign they are interested in another dog is promptly reproved. Until I walk them to the exam room most other dog owners are unaware my dogs aren't leashed. Sometimes I have to discourage owners of leashed dogs who jerk toward mine.

 

And Ms. Ruth is correct when she notes that a serious contretemps "could be the end of a veterinarian's business." It would be very bad - and I legally actionable - if during a dog melee a dog was badly hurt or a human seriously bitten.

 

So we don't let that happen. If, as has sometimes happened, other (leashed) dogs lunge and snarl at each other in the vet's office, my dogs DO NOT join the fray.

 

I thank those who disagree with me for the reminder what an important courtesy and trust my vet (and their staff) have shown me for thirty years.

 

When I am too frail or inattentive to uphold my part of our bargain, I'll bring my dogs in on a leash.

 

Donald McCaig

[Riika]

 

I've run into too many clueless humans who told me, "He/she is friendly," while he/she is standing there, stiffening up and staring daggers at my dog.

Oh, I had this happen to me last winter. This older man, on the bench about ten feet away, had a big, fat border collie mix on a leash. (My dogs were on leash too as this is the other vet clinic, that I usually don't use, am unfamiliar with, and has a clinic cat.)

The dog leaps to his feet, pulling on his leash the minute he notices us.

"Oh, he's nice," says the man. "I just got him from the ____ shelter yesterday." I'm thinking, "You've had him one day. What do you know about him?!?" At the same time, the dog begins growling and seriously struggling to get to my dogs. I basically froze in fear as the fellow let his dog pull him over to mine, growling and glaring at us.

Then I literally froze. Looking back, it was stupid of me-I should have grabbed my dogs and ran the second the dog started coming. (I was closer to the door than he.) But I honestly didn't think that guy was going to let a snarling dog lead him over to my dogs! Until it was too late and I was scared stiff!

This guy had total control over his dog! And he easily pulled it away after a couple of seconds. But he let it do that?!? Oh, was I mad. I still am actually.

My nature has always been that way that I didn't say anything and oh was I stupid. He had every chance to maul Duke. And looked like he wanted to. For the life of me, I cannot figure what made him not do it.

 

Okay, end of rant. Sorry about that.