Recallers free guest pass

[alligande]

I had a thought about this, I finally watched one of the many videos she has been putting up that participants have been posting about their journey, this the one I watched

what I see is a pet owner learning the foundation skills that have become the basics for agility, basically learning to play with your dog, have fun with your dog, and teach self control. Nothing new but not skills that seem to be taught in basic dog training, I see this with the people who come to find out about agility, they are all different nationalities so this is not a North American thing, my beginners are currently German, Spanish, English and Polish and they are all the same, have to learn to have fun, reward often, be happy etc etc.

[simba]

I'm not sure about how she talks about punishment or reprimands. It seems to be that either they are too small and therefore ineffective and don't change behaviour, just cause confusion. Or else they're 'severe and catastrophic' punishment, which actually does work but causes a lot of negative emotional fallout.

 

I mean, I'm no great shakes as a trainer and I've got a dog to stop pulling with verbal reprimands and the occasional accidentally-dropped book when the dog pulls my hand. Now all you need is to softly say the dog's name if she gets excited and forgets, and she looks up at you like 'oh yeah, forgot, sorry' and gives a bit of slack. Maybe punishment does only work to change behaviour when you're around, but it's not like I'm going to be not-around when she's on leash. Sometimes, if a dog tries to chase cattle or the cat, you need a reprimand.

 

I get the positive reinforcement thing, but why not just let it be that it puts the dog and -importantly- you in a better frame of mind for training? That it teaches the dog to seek you out when punishment will teach some dogs to evade you?

[Root Beer]

I know a lot of people have taken a closer look at +R training because of her, and I appreciate that.

 

I completely demolished Dean's weaves with her 2 X 2 protocol (He learned to enter and RUN and he never really did unlearn that), and I don't appreciate that. Yes, technically my fault, but I did have faith in her method, and the lesson in being more discerning didn't make up for the result.

I know a lot of people have found Crate Games helpful, and I appreciate that.

 

I know a couple of people whose dogs could only settle in a crate (and went ballistic outside of it) because of Crate Games, and I don't appreciate that.

I think it should be required that Ruff Love be read concurrently with Plenty in Life is Free because - whether Garrett intended it or not - people do use deprivation on their dogs in the name of Ruff Love, although the trend does seem to be dying out a good bit.

 

I read Shaping Success when I was trying to suss out a +R way to help Dean learn to be calm around other dogs in Agility class. It was not a helpful resource for that. (CU came along just at the right time for that!)

 

I'll admit, she grates on me - I don't think for the reasons that she grates on most people, but she does.

 

I lost all respect I ever had for her when she proudly posted the video of her dog running competitive Agility in pouring rain on a slippery surface and then she proceeded to accuse those who had the gall to say that they considered it unwise of being "nasty positive trainers". (The accusation is old and tired, but it did surprise me to hear it coming out of her because I did, up until that point, think she was more professional than that)

No, she will never get another cent out of me. Nor do I have anything to do with her free offers, even though I do know there are many who benefit from them.

 

Maybe my post is out of line. Nobody asked for my general thoughts on Susan Garrett. But you got 'em! My apologies if I was too blunt.

[Riika]

I know a lot of people have taken a closer look at +R training because of her, and I appreciate that.

 

 

I lost all respect I ever had for her when she proudly posted the video of her dog running competitive Agility in pouring rain on a slippery surface and then she proceeded to accuse those who had the gall to say that they considered it unwise of being "nasty positive trainers". (The accusation is old and tired, but it did surprise me to hear it coming out of her because I did, up until that point, think she was more professional than that)

 

The first part is really why I got so sucked up in her. I posted a couple of years ago on here about beginning agility training. A member told me that her Puppy Peaks was opening for registration in a little bit and to check that out. I did check it out and ended up signing up. It was a waste of money. Oh, she had tons and tons of wonderful video clips and information, but it just wasn't for me. A great course for other people, and well worth their money, but it just didn't fit with what I was thinking.

HOWEVER, I got one huge thing that may have actually made that $395 worth it. I learned that there is a training method that doesn't have to involve punishment. I was stunned to say the least. I'd never heard of such a thing! Then I was filled with relief and gratitude. Duke was really having a rough time because of the punishment he was getting, but I'd never heard of +R. Yeah, I know, I must have crawled out from under a rock but regardless.

 

I did not know the second part. I cannot, for one second, stand people who do that. I'm through. They have no respect from me if they think they need to defend themselves by dissing on other people. In private, sure everybody does. But that NEVER needs to be said publicly.

[Root Beer]

 

HOWEVER, I got one huge thing that may have actually made that $395 worth it. I learned that there is a training method that doesn't have to involve punishment. I was stunned to say the least. I'd never heard of such a thing! Then I was filled with relief and gratitude. Duke was really having a rough time because of the punishment he was getting, but I'd never heard of +R. Yeah, I know, I must have crawled out from under a rock but regardless.

 

And I hear a good many people say that, and I do appreciate that.

 

I forget that there are people who haven't had a good introduction to this type of training (or any - in some cases! ) and Garrett does get the word out there.

[alligande]

I just watched her first video of "free recallers" and what I found interesting was that she packages as if this is something new, which of course it is not, there are thousands of trainers working out there who understand how this style of training works, and so many of the people who have signed up for these courses could benefit from working with a local trainer who could help them with timing and their own dogs way of learning and not in an in-personal way. These courses have such a huge enrollment. When I sign up for an online course with Daisy Peel or most of the other agility courses I have looked at there is a limited enrollment for participants just like at a live seminar.

 

Kristine I am curious what went wrong with 2x2s and Dean?

[Root Beer]

 

 

Kristine I am curious what went wrong with 2x2s and Dean?

 

In Garrett's 2 X 2 protocol (and let me point out, for anyone who may not know - there are many ways to train 2 X 2's, and I am only speaking of Garrett's method, not all of them lumped together), you get the dog very revved up with a toy and the dog learns, first thing, to fly through the 2 X 2 and run ahead to the toy on a straight line - first standing in front of the dog completely "open", and gradually it is "closed". You do clock work around this, you spend a lot of energy on that. And Dean is a dog who gets excited about toys, and it got very ingrained, even at that stage, to go through that 2 X 2 and RUN!!!

 

When you add a second 2 X 2, it is some distance away from the first, so that same pattern got more limelight.

 

Naturally, we got "stuck" as the 2 X 2's came closer together. What is her solution? Open them up again. OK . . .

 

I think it's rather like when people train with channels and don't close them quickly enough.

 

Looking back, I needed Dean in his thinking brain, not in his "high revvy" brain when we worked the poles. I believe that if we had gone through the whole process with food (which she actively discouraged, unless use of food were absolutely necessary), and had closed up the 2 X 2's much faster (reserving around the clock for a set of six), he would have been fine. I could have added in the toy once he had a straight set of six going and - BOOM! He would have been fast and accurate.

 

He just did too much in his non-thinking brain and then when he saw poles, he went right into that mode.

 

I ended up having to retrain on wires, and we played a game where you kind of "shape" the poles by calling the dog into them, gradually moving back. I mostly got his weaves back, although in competition he never did consecutive poles on one try. His pattern - enter, run! Get called back, do all poles.

 

I am using 2 X 2's some with Bandit . . . but not Garrett's method.

[alligande]

That makes sense, I see that a lot with dogs that have been trained channels, that have not been closed where people have been more focused on the entrances and not realized they are training their dogs to run in a straight line through poles, not bend. I had the opposite problem, I was impatient so got very good weaves but not very good entrances.

[Root Beer]

Dean has been retired from Agility for over a year and he can still nail a 2 X 2 entry!!! Now it doesn't matter, so he can play with that 2 X 2 and just have fun!

 

Live and learn! And I'm glad if it had to happen, it was Dean, not Tessa!! Or Bandit, of course!

 

I took Julie Daniels weave class through Fenzi at Bronze. Bandit was still a tick young to do much with it, but it's in my library, and I think I am going to do that with him. She does use 2 X 2's, but her use of them is different. I really like what she does with them.

 

And when it comes to attitude, I do prefer the folks over at the Fenzi Academy. No pressure to upgrade, lots of options for instructors for different classes, so if you don't like one, there are plenty to choose from!!

[gcv-border]

I trained Torque with channels and got super weaves. I can't remember how fast I closed them though since it was 6 years ago and I really didn't know what I was doing. I didn't spend much time on entries, but that was something I could go back and train.

 

I had problems (maybe a bit similar to Dean??) where Torque would want to run through the weaves as fast as possible - which was a major problem when a jump was positioned in a straight line in front of the weaves. It was not unusual for him to hit the entry but he couldn't hold it, at his top speed, enough to bend around the 2nd pole. What worked for me was to put a line of 6 poles on a hill and run him downhill through the poles. In the beginning, I just handled him through the poles, but then I would use jumps, etc. to get his speed up before sending him to the weaves. He had to teach himself to slow a bit before the entry in order to get it. This behavior (collection before the weaves when necessary) has transferred to his general weave pole performance.