alligande Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 We endlessly have the conversation on these boards as to why working bred is best, when I am around agility folks I do keep my own council unless I am being asked my opinion. But recently I made a convert, his dog is an American sports bred dog, from a very successful agility breeder, he got her when she was 5, and to put it mildly she is wired a little tight, he also comes from the north of England and grew up seeing these dogs work. We spend a lot of time hanging out at agility trials due to sharing a language and at the last trial he told me he had been thinking about my arguments for working bred dogs that they are the complete package, while breeding for other purposes missed some of the elements and that it made sense. Before that he felt that you went to a good breeder to get a dog suited for the purpose you wanted to use the dog for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 He's right! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted May 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 He's right! . Not if we follow the philosphy of these boards... His thinking was if you want to do agility you go to an agility breeder etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizel Posted May 24, 2015 Report Share Posted May 24, 2015 Some other ideas - working bred dogs tend to work with their handlers and are often will to cover for our mistakes to get the job done. I have found they are also excellent at "mental mapping" and reasoning on the fly. They sometimes seem to have read a course map. The little speed demons the sport breeders tend to produce don't always have those attributes! I have seen some that really want to run, run ,run. You have to be a really good handler to keep up and keep safe. If you are a less than perfect handler, some of those working traits can help you get further than you would otherwise, especially if you have a fast dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 There are over generalisations made in both directions and good, bad and indifferent breeding whatever the purpose. Â I don't happen to believe that sports are a good reason for breeding but I don't deny that there are people breeding good dogs perfectly suited for a domestic / sport style of life just as I don't deny that some working dogs can be a nightmare for the inexperienced owner. Â No guarantees either way, you need to do your homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think it is about time the breed was officially split. No, a sport bred dog is NOT a better agility dog, but the more the working lines are crossed the fuzzier the distinction becomes. I would love to see an end to dual registration (with a conformation registry). Desexed dogs it would not matter. NR papers would be great but few use them and many people want to purchase a dog and leave it intact (an attitude more among those who work their dogs). Â But if you breed for a different purpose it is not the same breed is it (and sorry had more to comment yesterday but had to run quickly and never finished the thought) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I think it'd be hard to compare a newly rehomed 5-year old dog from any breeder to a dog owned by a dog-savvy individual and worked with since the pup was brand new. Though without question, some sports breeders are breeding very, very wired dogs. Though I know of sports breeders who are breeding nice, balanced and successful dogs too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 I may get in trouble for this but I'm going to say it anyway. Â You know, a working bred border collie is still extremely wired compared to, say, a St. Bernard. Â I see no fault in people breeding for sport. Or most other purposes for that matter. As long as the health of the animal is considered before anything else, I don't care. After all, that's how all dog breeds began. Somebody decided they wanted a sheep dog and after breeding for herding instinct for x amount of years, had the dog they wanted. Bird dogs, hounds, etc. All came from the same source and people began breeding them for different purposes. I know on this forum "designer dogs" are hated. And for the most part, yes, I agree with you. But let's take the Labradoodle. Somebody decided they wanted the hypoallergenic traits of a poodle, plus the traits of the loveable lab for the end purpose of a wonderful pet that some dog sensitive people can have. What's wrong with that? It's just a new breed of dog bred for something different. Â Maybe working bred BCs are better all around as agility dogs, but if the agility crowd doesn't mind having a wired dog, (and can control it) then what is wrong? It is just a new breed, essentially. Â I think they should name these sport bred border collies something different to tell them apart from the REAL BCs but can't condemn them for creating a new breed of dog for the purposes they want it for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 I may get in trouble for this but I'm going to say it anyway. Â You know, a working bred border collie is still extremely wired compared to, say, a St. Bernard. Â I see no fault in people breeding for sport. Or most other purposes for that matter. As long as the health of the animal is considered before anything else, I don't care. After all, that's how all dog breeds began. Somebody decided they wanted a sheep dog and after breeding for herding instinct for x amount of years, had the dog they wanted. Bird dogs, hounds, etc. All came from the same source and people began breeding them for different purposes. I know on this forum "designer dogs" are hated. And for the most part, yes, I agree with you. But let's take the Labradoodle. Somebody decided they wanted the hypoallergenic traits of a poodle, plus the traits of the loveable lab for the end purpose of a wonderful pet that some dog sensitive people can have. What's wrong with that? It's just a new breed of dog bred for something different. Â Maybe working bred BCs are better all around as agility dogs, but if the agility crowd doesn't mind having a wired dog, (and can control it) then what is wrong? It is just a new breed, essentially. Â I think they should name these sport bred border collies something different to tell them apart from the REAL BCs but can't condemn them for creating a new breed of dog for the purposes they want it for. Your average rock is more wired than a St. Bernard... Â I don't care if people breed dogs for sport either - as long as they don't call 'em Border Collies. Although, those dogs that are wrapped too tight are giving Border Collies a bad name. And since you can get a Border Collie (or a Shetland Sheepdog or a Lurcher or a mutt, for that matter) that can jam around an agility course at a great rate, why would you? Â Labradoodles aren't hypoallergenic. That's breeder hype. They may shed less, but that's not the same thing, and coat types are pretty variable in a litter. So you get some pups that are "more hypoallergenic" than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 But let's take the Labradoodle. Somebody decided they wanted the hypoallergenic traits of a poodle  Ask any allergist. There ain't no such thing as a hypoallergenic dog. It's a myth.  Do you know what breeds of dogs they collect dander from for allergy testing? Poodles and GSDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 I know a St. Bernard may be a bad example but just felt like using an extreme opposite. Â I also know that no dog is hypoallergenic-that's why I said "dog sensitive people" not allergic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 Labradoodle as an example makes me smile. Someone I know had a lab that shed loads (as they do) and for her next dog got a labradoodle and it was even worse. Lucky she thought it funny. Â As for agility dogs - working dogs are not generally better than sport bred dogs, nor are they worse. You get all ranges of ability in both - the difference is in the training and handling given the right raw materials. Â Take 3 working bred dogs (well bred) of 10 - 12 months that I know, including my own. All intended for agility and all belonging to experienced and ambitious handlers. In my case I mean my daughter rather than me. Â Dog 1 - bitch - going to be an absolute star. Can't fault her. Sits calmly watching by the ring but is ready to employ warp speed in the blink of an eye. Â Dog 2 - dog. Half sibling and cousin of the first (not inbred though). Takes longer to see the point but should be fine. Could be a dog v bitch thing. Â Dog 3 - Wild eyed and crazy for anything that moves. I'm sure she'll be good with consistency once her focus has been shifted onto the job but it could be a struggle compared to the others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 I have no issue with healthy dogs being bred for a purpose. Unfortunately, the purpose of most "designer dogs" is solely to make money for the "breeder". And that is the type of breeding I disagree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 To me it seems like the most exceptional border collies in regards to agility can seemingly come from anywhere. Even though I see some 'big name sport kennels' with dogs ranked very high, it's not surprising considering how they market themselves and their dogs and just plain how many dogs they produce. If you pump out 80+ pups a year and sell them to very ambitious handlers, surely a few will be very good. If they were really that much better than your run of the mill BC I'd expect to see more of them at the top. Â It's the same handlers you see over and over with various dogs at the top. Â I'd think any really exceptional handler could take a decent to nice border collie of whatever breeding and make a great agility dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 Yup ^^^ that. Â A SAR friend has trained 5 different dogs from 5 different breeders and 3 different breeds to FEMA certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 I agree with Laurelin. At least for agility, I think that the trainer is the most important part of the equation. Not sure if I can find it again, but about 5 years ago, I remember reading an essay on Sylvia Trkman's website (she of the multiple European and World Championships in agility). She described how several of her dogs were the unwanted or the leftover dog from a litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted May 26, 2015 Report Share Posted May 26, 2015 I agree with Laurelin. At least for agility, I think that the trainer is the most important part of the equation. Not sure if I can find it again, but about 5 years ago, I remember reading an essay on Sylvia Trkman's website (she of the multiple European and World Championships in agility). She described how several of her dogs were the unwanted or the leftover dog from a litter. Â Is that the one on choosing an agility dog? I think I read it a couple months ago when Kieran and I started taking lessons. Â Most of the dog breeds in our classes aren't ones that you really see seriously competing. It's neat to see all the different styles. All of them are capable of learning the obstacles - the main issue is the communication between the dogs and their handlers. Although, some of them do have really short attention spans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Â I see no fault in people breeding for sport. Or most other purposes for that matter. As long as the health of the animal is considered before anything else, I don't care. After all, that's how all dog breeds began. Somebody decided they wanted a sheep dog and after breeding for herding instinct for x amount of years, had the dog they wanted. Bird dogs, hounds, etc. All came from the same source and people began breeding them for different purposes. I know on this forum "designer dogs" are hated. And for the most part, yes, I agree with you. But let's take the Labradoodle. Somebody decided they wanted the hypoallergenic traits of a poodle, plus the traits of the loveable lab for the end purpose of a wonderful pet that some dog sensitive people can have. What's wrong with that? It's just a new breed of dog bred for something different. Â Â Actually, no. A labradoodle is not a breed. They can't be bred to each other and reproduce true to type. If you breed a labradoodle to another labradoodle, and continue that cross for 3 or 4 or 5 generations ... I don't know what you'd end up with, but it won't be a labradoodle, any more. That's the point of the argument against the designer breeds. They're mutts. They're only created by breeding two disparate purebred animals, not by creating a new, true breed that can self-perpetuate. Â Just an aside. Â ~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Some of the designer breeds have made a club, started keeping track of their lines(pedigree), and have created a standard to breed by  Just curious... if the border collie standard is its work style and not all border collies pups in a litter will have it. By your standards is the border collie a breed? Since you can breed border collies for their working ability and end up with non herding pup aka not breeding true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Some of the designer breeds have made a club, started keeping track of their lines(pedigree), and have created a standard to breed by  Just curious... if the border collie standard is its work style and not all border collies pups in a litter will have it. By your standards is the border collie a breed? Since you can breed border collies for their working ability and end up with non herding pup aka not breeding true. Oh goody! These people will be "the new AKC" if and when the old one tanks! They can create new breeds based on a combination of breeds from the genetically impoverished AKC dogs. More screwed up dogs with a new "brand-name."  Breeding true to type doesn't mean cookie-cutter looks or minds. It means dogs that as a group have a high percentage of individuals bearing marked similarities of some kind. In the case of the Border Collie, a body, mind and temperament predisposed to stock work.  I don't think of the Border Collie as a breed. I think of it as a type. Yes, there are a range of coat types, sizes and colors, and working styles. The latter because the dogs work in different climates, on different stock and on different terrain. A range of characteristics are needed to supply successful dogs for different situations. A number of combinations produce a number of different dogs on the ground. But if you added all the working-bred Border Collies and their offspring together you would come up with a high percentage of dogs capable of a useful amount of stock work. That counts as breeding true to type to anyone with any sense.  Though it doesn't seem to be a popular notion here on the Boards, I don't even think of them as Border Collies. I think of them as collies - small case "c". Which is what they were for centuries before the "fancy" started casting covetous looks at them and appropriated the name for their quickly-deteriorating show dogs.  Your question strikes me as rather passive-aggressive. You've been around here long enough to know the score. If I am wrong, please accept my apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Â Â Actually, no. A labradoodle is not a breed. They can't be bred to each other and reproduce true to type. If you breed a labradoodle to another labradoodle, and continue that cross for 3 or 4 or 5 generations ... I don't know what you'd end up with, but it won't be a labradoodle, any more. That's the point of the argument against the designer breeds. They're mutts. They're only created by breeding two disparate purebred animals, not by creating a new, true breed that can self-perpetuate. Just an aside. ~ Gloria Well whooops! I guess I'm one of the people the designers sucked in. I take back what I said about Labradoodles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Just curious... if the border collie standard is its work style and not all border collies pups in a litter will have it. By your standards is the border collie a breed? Since you can breed border collies for their working ability and end up with non herding pup aka not breeding true. Â Good question. I've always wondered what breed the pup who flunked herding is. I think geonni banner answered it pretty well though I'm still not quite satisfied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted May 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 I don't think I explained myself well. A recurring debate on these boards is that the only reason to breed is for working ability, but we all know there are 2 other strains of border collies, sport and confirmation. My friend is a former confirmation shower of Weimaraners and believed that you found the best breeder for your purpose ie an agility border collie should come from a specialized agility breeder which is not what is advocated here. After many conversations one day he said the more I look around I think you are right they need to come from a working breeder they really are more solid dogs. I was quietly proud of my sucess so came here to share that you persuade people that working bred dogs can do what ever it is you want them to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 ^^ That's what I understood you to have said, Alligande, and I was very confused by some of the replies. Â Good job convincing your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 ^^ That's what I understood you to have said, Alligande, and I was very confused by some of the replies. Â Good job convincing your friend. Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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