Occasional aggression towards other dogs

[Kylos86]

Hi,

 

I havn't posted in a while as what I have learned from this board has helped work with Django and he has grown into the best companion I could ask for and continues to get better each day.

 

Now I have searched for answers and can find none for this current development, here are the details;

 

There are a regular group of us who walk our dogs at the local park, all off leash and everybody gets along fine. Django mainly 'works' though by chasing a ball or whatever toy I bring, there are other dogs there who enjoy this and Django is happy to share, if he and another dog get to the ball at the same time he always allows them to have it and has never shown any possessive aggression at all.

 

Now today there was a puppy bull dog bitch named lola who is very boisterous and jumps in other dogs faces, she was 'told off' by a leashed dog who has fear aggression issues (which is why he is leashed) the young lad who owns lola can't control her off leash but everybody elses dogs tolerate her.

 

Django was pooped after running around in the sun and cooling off in the shade, I walked over to leash him as it was time to leave, I clipped the leash on whilst he was laying down then lola (the bull dog) bounds over and Django went mental growling and pinning her, I stearnly corrected him, checked she was OK and then we left.

 

This has only ever happend twice, another time was with a springer spaniel who is a regular also and I thought it was just him he didnt like so when he is around I make sure Django stays away from him.

 

Can anybody explain this? as Django shows no other aggression at any time towards anyone dogs or humans. Everybody always comments on how well trained and behaved he is, is he trying to assert he dominance like a pack? they are all together everyday at the same time there are around 5 solid regulars and then 5-6 less regular dogs.

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long read.

[Liz P]

The bull dog should be on a leash. SHE is being the rude one. Don't correct Django for defending himself.

 

How would you feel if a friend told this story about a man being out with his wife? Strange man at the bar keeps getting in the faces of women, hovering around them and generally being rude and too forward. Suddenly, he comes over and starts groping her. She asks him to stop, but he doesn't so she slaps him and tells him to get the hell away from her. Your friend then goes over and screams at his wife for being a foul mouthed, unfriendly bitch. The strange man was just being friendly! Sounds ridiculous, right? Well, that's what you did to Django when he tried to defend himself from a rude dog.

 

Be your dog's defender and champion and he won't have to use his teeth against another dog or human.

[gcv-border]

I agree. Your dog was defending himself against a rude dog. The other dog should be leashed.

[Riika]

Yeah that's what I was going to say. The interactions with crowding, rude dogs should be prevented in the first place. But if a dog ever came up, off leash, and acted like that to my dog and I wasn't able to stop the interaction, my dog would be more than welcome to tell off that dog. Of course, no dog should be encouraged to bite but he should be able to defend himself.

 

I desperately wish I knew a good dog who would do that to Duke yet without harming him. He has no dog manners and really needs someone to tell him to just knock it off. Of course, I'm not going to quit stopping him from being rude but I think a dog is a dog's best teacher.

[Kylos86]

Yes I can see your point thanks Liz P but in human terms this would be like a child tugging on the womens coat arm and continually saying lets play, lets play, would she be OK to slap the child? I think her husband would have something to say to her about that however they are dogs so neither of our hypethetical human situations hold weight.

 

I'm trying to figure out the why? as it is such an out of character behaviour, maybe he did feel threatened or protective I have in fact given the young lad a long line to help with control and told him this would happen sooner or later if he allowed her to just run up to any dog but didn't expect it to be Django.

 

Yeah Riika I should have been more specific when I say stearnly corrected I mean vocal redirection, I use his name in a long deep voice then say easy, its OK. This is mainly used when he barks which is when anything moves outside the front of the house, but that behaviour get redirected before he reacts most of the time.

[Liz P]

Bull dogs suck at body language and social interactions with other dogs. It's the breed. They come off as being very rude. It would not at all be like a kid pulling on someone's coat, more like the loud kid screaming his head off and being a spoiled brat, throwing a tantrum because he wants to get his way. This likely played a large role in the level of reaction she got from Django. Border Collies are, socially, more like an older person who expects everyone to be on their best behavior and is shocked by the state of how kids are raised these days.

 

In dog language, flipping a pup and teaching it manners without leaving puncture marks is quite acceptable. Django probably saw the pup being rude all day and decided it needed to learn the lesson loud and clear the first time. He was also tired. We all have short tempers when we are tired mentally and physically.

[Maralynn]

They're dogs. The young one was being a brat. No one else corrected her and her behavior continued. Django told her to knock it off in dog terms. It's not abnormal, it's a mature dog not putting up with an obnoxious youngster.

[Kylos86]

Thanks Liz P and Maralynn thats how I have learned a lot about body language from training with Django so I must have missed the 'trigger' it must just be the rudeness as the springer psaniel is also young and 'springy' bouncing around so I agree and think Django is setting them straight.

 

This puts my mind at rest it's funny because Django will not go over to any new dog or dog he knows until I say 'go on' this was never trained he just check with me which I appreciate so whenever he tells a dog off it is them invading his space.

 

People can be ignorant though as I could tell what some of the people where thinking because all they see is a 14 month old 55lbs 25" tall BC pin a 7 month old bull dog.

[urge to herd]

Ah, 7 months is an age when many pups start getting corrected by mature dogs. They lose their puppy license for bad behavior and the grown-ups start putting them in their place.

 

Hopefully the bulldog's owner will keep her on a leash. If not, she's likely to get corrected several times by the other dogs.

 

Ruth and SuperGibbs

[alligande]

The bull dog should be on a leash. SHE is being the rude one. Don't correct Django for defending himself.

 

 

Be your dog's defender and champion and he won't have to use his teeth against another dog or human.

Everything Liz says is spot on.

[borasaurus]

A little more extreme, but it's like the interaction between Kieran and my friend's dog. Her dog will constantly try to hump him - she spent the weekend with me once and the whole time he tried. He wouldn't even give it up for five minutes. At first, Kieran would tell him to stop by pushing him away or just flat out leaving. However, her dog clearly did not get the message, so Kieran resorted to growling and then to snapping at him. Even that did nothing, so eventually Kieran grabbed him by the neck and pinned him down. He didn't hurt him; he was just trying to give as clear a signal as he could that he didn't like it. Of course, that didn't work, so we just had to separate them. Some dogs, like people, are just dense and rude.

[teresaserrano]

Ditto, don't correct your dog for telling an obnoxious pup he's being rude. Ît's good for the pup, anyway, to be told to mind his manners. There's nothing wrong with your dog and it doesn't mean he's agressive.

 

If I wanted to think Tess is agressive towards other dogs, I could, considering she's quite quick at responding to rude behaviour. But:

 

- she loves other dogs, and plays well with all breeds and both sexes.

 

- she imediatly identifies dogs she might not get along with because of this and that and does a wonderfull job at avoiding and ignoring them. She looks the other way, keeps distance, doesn't walk head on to them, sends calming signals. She doesn't initiate behaviours that could lead to problems. She doesn't stare at them, aproach rudely, dispute their possessions, body slam them, put her head or paw over them, growl at them. She doesn't initiate fights.

 

- When she reacts to a dog, the dog IS being rude. Sometimes what the dog did would not be considered that rude by some other dogs, but Tess is who she is, and a bc by the way. Although she is tolerant and actually loves wrestling and bodyslaming with her gsd friends, a girl has her limits.

 

- When she does more than an air snap, her reaction is quite impressive in terms of sound and overall aspect, but she has never made another dog bleed. Basically she growls and snarls ferociously, pins dog to the ground with mouth on his neck, and stays still til he gives up. Then she lets go. She isn't intent on hurting or killing, she's correcting. I'm fine with that.

 

- She doesn't hold a grudge. Just because she corrected a dog doesn't mean she doesn't like him or will forever have problems with him.

 

- Finally, when she does feel the need to correct a dog every time they're together, then I'm carefull, as that could turn into an enemity. I don't correct her, but I'm even more vigilant than usual, and ask (force, if needed be) the other owner to also be. I watch for possible triggers and, if necessary, explain them to the other owner, and together we make sure to avoid and manage those triggers. Of course this is only needed if the dogs must be together often, like at training. Otherwise we just don't mingle with dogs she doesn't like.

 

- Bottom line is, she isn't agressive. I actually think she's pretty balanced. In spite of her sometimes snarly little self.

[mbc1963]

Yup, I jump in line to agree wth the others. My old boy was he KING of intolerance for bad behavior. He had friends he would wrestle with... but any dog who crossed into his personal space area without being a good friend got flipped, pinned, and scolded. All very gently, with no biting. It was horrible to watch, but after he'd done it a couple times, I learned to just let him scold.

 

(Mind you, I also learned to avoid places where strange dogs were going to charge at us... because in terms of human interactions, one dog's pinning another one is not acceptable. The other owner was always freaked out. And Buddy's idea of what was "rude" was much more strict that other dogs' idea... so he had a hair trigger.)

 

Once, when I was in the woods with Buddy off-leash, an adolescent boxer pup came CHARGING down a big hill at us. Luckily, he saw me first and came to me; I put my leash on him and held him till his owner came. Buddy was fine with my walking the strange dog - because it kept the dog out of his face. The boxer's owner apologized, because she realized that putting others in the position to manage her dog was not a good thing.

 

The bull dog is going to keep getting that reaction until it learns to watch other dogs' body language and approach respectfully.

[Maralynn]

Oh gosh - 7 m/o is a teenager who absolutely needs some self control, not a baby. If they still view her as a baby then I can see where the issues are coming from.

 

Fwiw, my youngster got corrected by another Border Collie at SAR training when he was 4 m/o. He got excited, lost his mind and ran right up in the other dog's face. And promptly got smacked down. I kinda felt bad for my pup, but it was his fault and he learned from the experience.