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I was thinking about this tonight after a conversation with someone. Border Collies are often extremely intolerant of people and other dogs who don't follow proper social etiquette. By this I mean that they may strongly dislike humans that do things that are rude in dog language like loom over them, hug them, get in their face etc. The same can be said of their frequent dislike of dogs such as Boxers who put their paws on top of each other during play, Labs that just don't know when to stop despite being growled/snarled at, etc.

 

So then I formed a theory. We breed Border Collies to be experts at reading behavior in livestock. We breed them to follow strict rules for reacting to that behavior. For example, you don't bite stock except in self defense. You walk up and politely give them the opportunity to move. If they oblige, you guide them along. If they don't, you insist, but you aren't a jerk about it. It seems to me that by breeding the ultimate stock dog, which requires them to be exceedingly aware of social cues in other animals, we have also bred a dog that is fairly intolerant of rude humans and dogs.

 

When I consider all the Border Collies I've owned, the ones with the most natural stock sense were also the most "weird" socially. (Weird by the standards of modern, obnoxious humans who think all dogs should love being smothered and hugged by strangers and pounced on by their rude dogs.) These same dogs had the best dog social skills (when around other socially intelligent dogs) and were the most in tune with people.

 

This would certainly make an excellent argument for why selecting for pet/sport/show dogs with more "friendly" temperaments could quickly lead to the ruination of the breed. It would be selecting against the very thing that makes them such superb stock dogs.

 

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I....don't know.

 

*disclaimer* I don't work my dog on stock.

 

I was on board with everything until the friendly = not good on stock stuff. Aloofness to people is not what creates a good working dog. It might go hand in hand, but it's a correlation/causation issue in my mind.

 

I'd be more inclined to say that every dog has a different set of rules with people, dogs, sheep, cats, cattle, etc. And I wonder how much of the rules are determined by us. The are very in tune to behavior, but I think many of the rules are guided by the human. I'd guess that the natural inclination towards a behavior can be enhanced or diminished, and the social "weirdness" with people is an example of that. My dog was NOT happy about being picked up, cuddled, and whatnot as a pup. But enough positive enforcement has changed his mind. He's no less aware, he just has a different frame of reference for those interactions. More anecdotal evidence, but our farrier's top trial dog is one of the sweetest dogs I've met. And my horse trainer just got rid of a pig headed BC that was useless on stock and nasty to people.

 

Anyway, I think it's very fair to say that dogs that are sensitive to stock will be sensitive to people. But I wouldn't be inclined to take it so far as to say that breeding dogs with friendly temperaments makes them bad on stock. Now, breeding for a friendly temperament FIRST would certainly lose ability on stock! (After typing all that I'm wondering if that was what you really meant...)

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You could be right Liz.

 

My working bred youngster is friendly and polite to dogs and humans (most of the time) but he isn't a cuddly dog although a certain amount of physical contact is fine. I understand and accept that a potentially good working dog is probably going to be a little aloof compared to a pet / sport bred dog.

 

He doesn't understand rude canine behaviour, and some of the rudest he has met has come from a couple of not completely working bred collies.

 

Socially he is much more mature at 10 months than our 9 year old who struggled to learn how to behave with other dogs and people and is still only 80% there. I don't think lack of early socialisation explains him completely.

 

My youngster's breeders do breed for good temperament but I imagine does so because it helps produce the sort of working dogs they are aiming for, but by doing so they open up their market by being able to sell their surplus for purposes other than working. You might get away with an antisocial working dog but you aren't going to sell for domestic / sport purposes if that's what you are producing.

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From what I can see, many sports people are not breeding for temperment. I include things like fear and extreme noise sensitivity in the temperment category.

 

Let's face it, people are willing to forgive a lot of tempermental shortcomings, if a dog is good at its job (regardless of the specific job). And dogs that are good at what they do, get bred regardless of temperment.

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Socialization plays a huge part in how dogs interact with people and other dogs.

 

Breeding can make a dog more tolerant of other dogs and people.

 

Dogs do not generalize well (compared to humans)

 

I believe dogs come with an innate set of 'rules'. I also know that good frequent (at least daily) socialization and handling CAN help dogs overcome their issues with others. And this socialization NEEDS to continue through puberty.

 

I recognize that most people cannot properly socialize dogs.

 

And I do agree that Border Collies do have a low tolerance for 'rudeness' as Liz puts it. I often ask people why they expect their dog to like everyone-do you?

I've had this breed for longer than many and seen changes, some are what Liz mentions. As the breed got more popular it changes, the dogs became naturally more friendly-and I see a lessening of the sensitivity on stock- is it a correlation? I think it could be linked. After all, If you want a dog which allows others (dogs and people( close rough contact in their space, then these dogs may not mind the close rough contact with stock.

 

However due to the variability of socialization it would be hard to study.

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Interesting thoughts. I wouldn't go as far to da that that runs true across the board though.

 

Is the "more friendly" aspect nature or nurture? Because dogs are getting out and about more?

 

And is the perceived intolerance due to the breeding of the dogs or the fact that society as a whole is further removed from animal behavior and expect rude behavior as the norm?

 

I mean, the SAR dogs I'm around are largely polite and respectful regardless of breed. Because their owners have higher expectations of their dogs.

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Dear Doggers,

 

If you're lucky and skilled you get what you breed for. If you breed for laid-back and/or friendly you'll get that. If you breed for stock savvy, you'll get that.

 

I don't see as many pet Border Collies as some on this list and can't comment on them. Most sheepdogs are friendly enough to their owners/ owners' families but have no particular interest in strangers and are surprised when strangers attempt to fondle them.

 

I recall the 88 international when the Duke of Athol presented the trophy to Merion Jones and bent to pat Spot. Spot jumped to the end of his leash in astonishment and the Duke jerked his hand back. That, sorry Ms. Donaldson, is a genuine "Culture Clash".

 

Donald McCaig

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I'm not sure about the overemphasis on socialisation that we get nowadays. You can have too much of a good thing and it isn't a panacea for all behavioural ills.

 

Working dogs can spend most of their lives on the farm but if they are bred right can be very adaptable to unfamiliar situations.

 

Socialisation will only get you so far - you need the raw material too.

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re: socialization. Actually way back in the day, dogs got more socialization-at least here in the States. They ran loose, often forming small groups, playing with the children who were out playing (often in the streets). People did not keep their dogs confined when I was a child. A few did, a few also spayed/neutered their dogs and there were litters often.

 

I'll never forget the Farmer's astonishment at my knowing his dogs were Border Collies. I've seen lots of changes in the breed since the 1970's when I finally saw my first live Border Collie.

 

One of the biggest is the more friendly, "toned down" nature of most today. I remember Ian Dunbar being surprised that a Border Collie could be as laid back as mine. But laid back does not mean breeding for a dumbed down version of the breed it means I work hard at keeping my dogs calm. The advent of the 'off switch' mentality led to the production of easier to handle dogs on a daily basis. I think it also led to a change in the working dog overall as along with the 'off switch' came an increase in dogs being selected as 'weekend dogs', those dogs that sit around all week and go to trials on the weekend. And IMO this has changed the breed. Not all changes are bad, but it is getting harder to find certain types of dogs.

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Maralynn, I see very few dogs(outside one or two bloodlines) that the first time on stock go to the balance point, using eye will walk up (perhaps a bit fast-it is the dog's first time) and lift/move stock. dogs with natural pace, good sensibilities, Dogs that just "know" how it is dong (and it is proper knowledge). The type of dog that any farmer can use without any training (other than the kick and cuss method).

 

I do see dogs that are much better as pets than my first Border collie

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Interesting, Pam. My first dog was pretty natural. I had no clue what I was doing but she was pretty useful anyway. My youngster i think could be the same way if I needed him to be. I took him to a friend's place and tried him on stock when he was about 9 m/o and I loved what I saw. He went to balance pretty quick, switched sides nicely, tail went down in short order, quite interested and engaged but sensible as well. Kinda made me want to eventually train him for stock work

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It seems to me that by breeding the ultimate stock dog, which requires them to be exceedingly aware of social cues in other animals, we have also bred a dog that is fairly intolerant of rude humans and dogs.

 

I think maybe, that its less about "being intolerant of rudeness" as it is being more sensitive to "abnormal" behavior. The same way some dogs will freak out a little if you move your furniture around...it feels wrong and they are suspicious.

 

 

I'm not sure about the overemphasis on socialisation that we get nowadays. You can have too much of a good thing and it isn't a panacea for all behavioural ills.

 

Working dogs can spend most of their lives on the farm but if they are bred right can be very adaptable to unfamiliar situations.

 

Socialisation will only get you so far - you need the raw material too.

 

Truth...its about 70/30 I think. I have owned 2 rescue dogs that were pretty much completely un-socialized as puppies, a Border Collie raised in an outdoor pen and a Papillon who never left the inside of his home (he was way fun to house train, I tell ya). Both blossomed into dogs confident enough to take out and about and do obedience and agility with. My neighbors little terrier chihuahua mix who never left his house from the day he arrived until he was 7 months old is skittish and will run from me, but if I stand still long enough he will adjust and be friendly-ish. Intrinsically he is a stable dog. Its too bad they didn't better prepare him for the world, though.

 

My current dogs was well socialized by both his breeder and myself and he is quite fearful and uncomfortable around strangers, and even people who he knows and likes will get a drive-by greeting then he prefers not to to be touched except in a very casual way.

 

I do think some people actually socialize too much, exposing their puppies to bad experiences and not letting the puppy set his own pace and don't give recovery time. I used to teach Puppy Kindergarten and I think I spent 30 minutes of each 1 hour class talking about not over doing it, letting the puppy tell you and reading his body language, etc. People are pretty clueless and if socialization is good, more must be better, right?

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Could it be as simple as this? Stockdogs, dogs that work for a living, belong to stockmen/women, are simply of a mindset like their owners, that is, they don't suffer fools gladly. Working with livestock is something that puts your feet right down on the ground. When I lived on our chicken farm in Texas, we didn't harbor any frivolous notions about the chickens. That attitude tended to bleed into other aspects of life. We had a Collie - the Lassie kind - who was expected not to act like a fool. He didn't. He was quiet, well-behaved and useful as a watchdog. He received strangers calmly, and with reserve. He was not above a snap, if he was not accorded the same.

 

Maybe it's because I live in a pretty frivolous part of the world now - the San Francisco Bay area. But most of the pet owners around me create personalities in their dogs that I find obnoxious. So does my dog. Don't get me wrong, I have fun with my dog, and she has dog friends. But there is a no-nonsense attitude about her. She is aware of what is going on around her and she takes herself seriously. She is not an attention-seeking, "isn't everything just great?" sort of dog. When she meets someone new, her attitude is more like, "And you are?..." I'm the same way. I don't think I'll ever get used to the California habit of greeting not-very-close acquaintances with a smothering hug and expressions of ecstatic delight. It looks phony. It is phony.

 

Sensible dogs distrust pretense. They can sense that it is covering something else. Horses are the same. I'm guessing the same is true with a sheepdog that encounters a stroppy ewe who challenges it. The dog takes a good look and knows whether a grip is called for, or to just wait a moment and stare until the pretense crumbles. It probably behaves the same with other dogs. And people.

 

The average city-bred pet dog is promiscuously friendly. It does not look any deeper than the high, squeaky voice, the proffered treat and the ceaseless petting. It is always shocked (as is it's owner) when it's feckless ways net it a sharp reprimand from a dog (or person) offended by it's lack of propriety.

 

If a dog is bred to be sensible and serious about its work, I would expect it would be like that about life in general. Such a dog would perforce have a different sort of relationship with its owner. Which is not to say it could not have moments of letting its hair down, and be capable of sharing a joke with people with whom it has an established relationship. Even a wolf is occasionally goofy. But if the ne plus ultra of breeding a stockdog is producing a serious and intelligent worker, then that is the sort of character the dog would likely have.

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I'm the same way. I don't think I'll ever get used to the California habit of greeting not-very-close acquaintances with a smothering hug and expressions of ecstatic delight. It looks phony. It is phony.

I dunno, I hug and grin and tell people how glad I am to see them because I really am- even my acquaintances, sometimes. I might look like a tit to some, but it's how I was raised and it's at least an honest expression of gladness.

 

 

Otherwise yeah, I agree totally. I have no problem with my dog getting excited to see their friends, if they remain polite, but it's needless to do so for strangers.

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I dunno, I hug and grin and tell people how glad I am to see them because I really am- even my acquaintances, sometimes. I might look like a tit to some, but it's how I was raised and it's at least an honest expression of gladness.

 

I am only too happy to paw and be pawed by good friends, some family, and even folk I've recently taken a shine to, but here it's just over the top. If you meet someone at a BBQ and run into them a few days later they're liable to fold you to their bosom as if you were the prodigal something-or-other. It's creepy, really... =)

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Well said, Geonni.

 

Pam,

I have no problems finding natural working dogs (t's what I prefer; no micromanaging for me) who can manage stock at home and trial on weekends. True, I stick generally to a particular bloodline(s), but I find it hard to believe that there are only one or two such in existence in this country.

 

J.

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I am only too happy to paw and be pawed by good friends, some family, and even folk I've recently taken a shine to, but here it's just over the top. If you meet someone at a BBQ and run into them a few days later they're liable to fold you to their bosom as if you were the prodigal something-or-other. It's creepy, really... =)

 

Living in SoCal, I never really understood this phenomenon of hugging either, lol. It's not that I wasn't raised in a loving family...I just don't really get it and it feels awkward to me when it's someone I don't know too well. I had friends who did it to barely even acquaintances and let's just say we aren't really friends anymore. It's not the hugs themselves, but more of what they represent - the superficiality - that drove us apart.

 

People are always confused by the fact that Kieran is very reserved around strangers. Once he knows you well, he's your best friend, but if he's never seen you before and you come bumbling up to him to pet him, he doesn't want any part of it. I find it to be very genuine in that sense. I don't know why people expect him to be friendly to everyone he meets. I certainly don't.

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Living in SoCal, I never really understood this phenomenon of hugging either, lol. It's not that I wasn't raised in a loving family...I just don't really get it and it feels awkward to me when it's someone I don't know too well. I had friends who did it to barely even acquaintances and let's just say we aren't really friends anymore. It's not the hugs themselves, but more of what they represent - the superficiality - that drove us apart.

 

People are always confused by the fact that Kieran is very reserved around strangers. Once he knows you well, he's your best friend, but if he's never seen you before and you come bumbling up to him to pet him, he doesn't want any part of it. I find it to be very genuine in that sense. I don't know why people expect him to be friendly to everyone he meets. I certainly don't.

 

When I was doing Collie rescue I heard people say more than once about some dog with a calm, aloof temperament," Oh, he's got temperament problems. He'll be hard to place. Maybe we should put him down."

 

I'm afraid I wasn't very tactful in my reply. I said, "If this dog is considered to have fatal temperament problems, then half the people I know in rescue should be put down."

 

The Golden Retriever is the current gold-standard (sorry) for pet dog temperament. At least, where I live it is. A dog with an once of self-respect is deemed "shut down," or possibly "spooky." People will go to elaborate lengths to get my dog to come to them and "be friendly." We usually just walk away and leave them chirruping and snapping their fingers, and saying "Oh! she's been abused." Sugarfoot and I - two curmudgeons who found each other on the Internet, and try to ignore the wriggling canine and human sycophants together. But then... Once in a while Sugar will meet a complete stranger that makes her practically turn inside out with delight. And slightly less often, so do I. Go figure. =)

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Yeah, being an introvert myself, I totally get Border Collies. I sure don't want to be hugged by everyone I meet, so I don't imagine my dogs do either. Sometimes they meet a person they really click with and that's great. i just ask that they be polite in public.

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