simba Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Older bitch has lost a lot of weight. This is the one who used to be obese before she got put on a strict diet. She's been fed the amount of food suggested on the bag to put weight on a thin dog, but I decided to bring her in to the vet for a couple of things (arthritis, fever and abdominal pain). Shock horror, she had lost quite a lot of weight- 10lb. I had noticed weight loss around her face and some reduced muscle on her hind legs, but I wasn't sure if it was normal ageing. I still cannot see, looking at her, where the 10lb came from. I kind of can't believe it. If you said to me that anyone could not notice their dog losing this much weight, I would have thought they were either completely unobservant or a terrible owner. I don't understand. I mean, this dog sleeps with her head on my lap. She's had blood tests done, some liver markers were elevated and she's going to be treated for hepatitis. But the vet doesn't seem to think this has caused the weight loss. I am starting to get dependent on you guys when scary-dog-things happen, but it is nice to have that feeling of 'I have backup'. Having read the hemangiosarcoma thread of course I instantly go to 'red alert, full panic mode'. Edit: I wonder if it's the flip side of 'fat dog looks normal'. Any normal weight dog looks underweight to me, so I have to consciously go 'no, dogs are not naturally coffee-table shaped'. So I didn't see when she was actually underweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 24, 2015 Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 Other than the elevated liver enzymes, did your vet have any comments regarding possible causes of weight loss? I'd certainly start by looking for medical causes. If she's become a lot less active, then muscle atrophy can account from some weight loss. I had my hands on my 15 year old the other day, and she clearly has lost muscle mass along her back and one hind leg (she doesn't get around well because of a spinal embolism a few years ago left one hind leg somewhat disabled). At her age and activity level this doesn't surprise me (she has normal bloodwork). If your vet doesn't see any organic reason for the weight loss, then you can increase the amount of food she gets, add fat, or add oatmeal (I've had great luck with the latter for working dogs who have lost weight). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted April 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2015 She is going to go in next week for more tests on the weight loss front. Her arthritis has worsened recently so we're doing walks with less flat-out running or steep slopes etc. which could also contribute. I've added oatmeal and some wet food in addition to her normal ration, I'll continue that once she gets back from the vet's (unless of course he says not to). Thank you for the reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschlemm Posted April 25, 2015 Report Share Posted April 25, 2015 You didn't say how old your dog is. One thing, muscle weighs more than fat so if she is losing muscle it doesn't take as much "noticeable loss" to loose 10 pounds. This could be a completely normal way that she is aging. If all the other tests come out normal and you think she is acting normal (appetite, thirst, stools, urine) you may just want to address the arthritis issue ( can't do NSAIDS with the liver issue but Trammadol would be ok, glucosamine supplement, Adequan injections) and see how things go. If something is abnormal about her or you have a gut feeling that something else is going on I'd take her for an ultrasound. What does your vet think of her fever? Is her white blood cell count normal? Maybe an ultrasound would be the best thing to check her liver to see what is going on. My 13 year old Border died from splenic hemangiosarcoma. He never lost weight, never slowed down, nothing really changed but I just had a gut feeling that something was off and I wish I would have addressed it sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted April 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Yeah, she's on tramadol. I looked into glucosamine but there's not enough evidence for it. The vet reckons given her age and symptoms (particularly since the weight loss was quite fast) it could likely be hepatitis or a tumor. Fingers crossed. Edit: the three-pronged approach (studies for information, here for practical advice, vet for.. well, everything that can be fitted into a consultation), if nothing else, at least keeps me busy while I panic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolync Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 My 15 year old started losing weight, and I was concerned, the vet was not, she felt it was better for his ailing hips, but I had not changed his food intake, so it still worried me. He has lost a good deal of muscle mass in his hind end, but he was consistently losing weight, this is a dog whose weigh rarely fluctuated. Blood work was fine. We did a fecal, and it turned out he had giardia. With some Panacur and antibiotics in a couple weeks he had gained back a pound and a half, with no diet change. Hoping yours is something as simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted April 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Thank you Carolync, that really reassures me! Edit: did he show any other symptoms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolync Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Thank you Carolync, that really reassures me! Edit: did he show any other symptoms? Not really. Occasional loose stools, but that was it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 The spleen is enlarged, they're reckoning it's likely a spleen tumor combined with hepatitis. They didn't mention a specific likely cause- although honestly they could well have, and just I've forgotten it- but they are advising that she gets surgery within the next week because of the possibility of "blood-filled cysts" inside her rupturing. I'm also supposed to keep her on-lead, no running about the place etc and she's on antibiotics and pain killers. I would tell you more but I've forgotten it- I knew I should have brought a notebook in. It's not even lack of interest and not paying attention, it's more that I heard 'needs immediate surgery' and 'tumor' and that blotted out all the other information. Does that sound like they think she has hemangiosarcoma (given it's one of the more common causes of spleen tumors- 2/3 of spleen tumors are malignant and 2/3 of those are hemangiosarcoma) or am I imagining that since I read about it here recently? I desperately hope not, because apparently if a dog gets that in the spleen it's likely metastasized by the time it's detected. Am I doing the right thing by thinking of surgery? I am afraid I'm falling victim to my own 'cut it out and get rid of it' mentality. On the one hand she is 13 and quite sick at the moment, so perhaps surgery would be more harm than good- a painful recovery or the risks of sedation for her, and it could turn out to be for no benefit. On the other hand she is happy in herself, and if I can keep her alive and keep the quality-of-life worthwhile for a bit longer it'd be worth it. It's a hard call to make simply because I can't keep my head straight enough for it, I'm too emotionally involved. Please, any advice you can give is welcome. I just don't want to do the wrong thing by my dog, even if it is for 'the right' reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Oh wow. I'm sorry. I would want an ultrasound before surgery to check for evidence of it spreading. If they feel it I confined to the spleen and if she has been overall fit and healthy, then I would strongly consider surgery. With the understanding that if they find it has metastasized then opt for euthanasia. Once again I am truly sorry you are going through this. I lost my first dog to hemangio. AN U/S showed spleen and likely liver involvement so I opted to keep her happy and comfortable for as long as possible. She lived 8 pretty good weeks post diagnosis. But she wasn't showing any symptoms when diagnosed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 My first thought with your description was hemangiosarcoma. I would ask the vet just how "operable" it is and what he/she feels are the likely outcomes. Of course, until they go inside, they may not know with any certainty, either. As Mara says, an ultrasound may help in your decision-making. By the time our old Mac was discovered to have hemangiosarcoma, it was very large, he was not a good candidate for surgery (aged 15), and there were too many things factoring against surgery for him. On the other hand, he'd lived a good, long life and the tumor did not noticeably affect him until just two days before we put him down (he turned his head to the wall on Saturday, after the vets were closed, and so we did not take him in until first thing Monday but just kept him clean and as comfy as we could over the weekend). Alternatives? Surgery or keeping her as comfy and "normal" as possible until she lets you know it's time. Consult with your vet and listen to your heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 The vet seems to be pushing for surgery so presumably they think she will likely be all right? They were strongly advising she go in for surgery in the next week, because of the rupture risk. There was no mention of ultrasound, I am not sure if they have the facilities there having just checked their website. I will call them Monday and ask. Edit: I asked about relative risk and likely outcomes but they said they couldn't really say before they actually saw what was going on, so until after the surgery. At the moment I am trying to feed her up and keep her happy. She is cleared for walks, at least, and she's gained weight since last week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would ask what the likelihood of the liver being affected and if that could be a possible cause of the hepatitis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I will ask again but I gathered during the visit that they thought it was likely unrelated, hence the antibiotics? Like I said, my memory of this discussion is a bit fuzzy. Next visit I am going to bring a notebook, maybe even explain and ask if I can record it on my phone if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would want more information prior to surgery--minimally an ultrasound and chest xray. It should be possible to perform an ultrasound-guided biopsy of both the liver and spleen. But, if a chest xray and/or abdominal ultrsound show multiple tumors, there is no point in performing surgery. It is rather surprising that surgery is even being considered without an abdominal ultrasound. When I am considering surgery for my dog (or a family member), I want to know that the surgeon has the skills needed to perform the type of surgery under consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 I am getting more and more confused on what to do. Friends are telling me ""She's an old dog, leave it" and "Stop fretting. It's a waste of Daisy's energy to give her surgery that might not prolong her life. Just leave it for a couple of weeks." But she's a happy bouncy little dog- I'm having trouble keeping her calm and not-running. She's eating with a good appetite, begging for the most incongruous scraps, stealing asparagus, having no trouble telling off the other dogs if they try to take her toy. She's just got started on fetch this year, she's learning how to close a door, she's got the first toy she's really liked in years... I know, logically, that none of these are reasons for believing surgery is still an option or the best option, or that she has any chance of cure or of prolonged survival. But, but, illogical-and-emotional-yet-compelling thought processes! Edit: they don't know any better than I do about this stuff. And the vet thinks she should have it. On the other hand you'd expect the vet to think so- not necessarily out of money-making, but simply because doctors etc tend to be pretty ready to accept or reccommend treatment, 'trying something', they don't like to have a patient die either and they like to be able to DO something, figure it out, find the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 I think that's why you need more information. You should be able to get a better grasp of what you're dealing with with some minimally invasive testing. Is there another vet you can take her to to get a second opinion? With just that amount of information, I would have opted for surgery for both my dogs. With further information from basic testing I opted for palliative care as the outcome for surgery would have been poor for both. If testing had indicated a halfway decent chance of something more treatable then I would have opted for that. It's tough and confusing. And the pressure of time makes it more difficult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted May 3, 2015 Report Share Posted May 3, 2015 And the vet thinks she should have it. On the other hand you'd expect the vet to think so- not necessarily out of money-making, but simply because doctors etc tend to be pretty ready to accept or reccommend treatment, 'trying something', they don't like to have a patient die either and they like to be able to DO something, figure it out, find the problem. So sorry you are faced with all this. I also vote for getting more information before surgery. That may mean a second opinion. It certainly calls for more tests. Vets are individual in how they approach these things. Without knowing your vet (and more importantly, having a history with him) or hearing what you were told, I agree you need a clearer picture of what is going on so you can decide if the recovery from surgery, average length of survival, overall quality of life, and expense makes sense your situation. Not everyone is going to have the same answer and that is ok. You do what is right for your dog and you based on as much information as you can reasonably gather. I wish these things were easier or at least clearer. Wishing you both the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschlemm Posted May 4, 2015 Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 I'd look into an ultrasound. My BC had a splenic mass that ruptured. I got him to Emergency in time and told them that when they opened him up, if there was ANY sign of spread to liver/elsewhere to put him down. It was hemangiosarcoma but at the time everything else looked ok. He lived another 9 weeks after surgery. 8 good weeks with only a couple setbacks and one week of a slow decline. I had him euthanized when it became evident that cancer was everywhere (heart, kidneys, lungs) and he no longer wanted to eat and needed a blood transfusion. He was 13 years old. I work as a Vet Tech and we do see benign splenic tumors in older dogs. They recover from the surgery and do just fine so I consider it worth it to consider surgery as long as the dog is a good surgical prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2015 What's recovery time after a big surgery like this? The other thing friends are telling me is that it'll be cruelty to prolong a dog's life by a small bit by having it in recovery from major surgery for most or all of it. Or that I should wait a few weeks and then make the decision- but would that make sense, given some of these cancers can develop very quickly? If it's something nasty and treatable now (small chance I know), that chance won't be there in a couple of weeks. I'm also getting lots of 'don't read about it, don't look up anything, it'll only upset you'. I don't understand that. I mean, how can I make a decision based off no information? The dog isn't going to go look this up herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschlemm Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 As far as recovery time each dog is different. My dog's splenic mass ruptured at home. He screamed and fell over. I got him to the emergency service before he bled out. They x-rayed his chest and abdomen and saw no other sign of tumor. He was very painful post-op and at the time I regretted putting him through it. I transfered him to the local vet in the morning and he was too uncomfortable to lie down. He had gotten Torbutrol at the emergency but my vet gave him Rimadyl and then he was comfortable. I took him home the next day. I remember him being quiet for a couple days after that but because the mass had ruptured he was quite anemic. He was himself after that. At the time of suture removal he was 100% himself. It was cancer so he did age but had eight good weeks of eating well and doing what he enjoyed. I am a Vet Tech and if the dog looks good before surgery they recover quickly and within a day or so are back to normal. We removed the spleen from an 11 year old Lab two weeks ago and he looked terrible before surgery but I swear after surgery it was like he woke up and said "Wow, it's gone, do I ever feel better." Unfortunately, his biopsy came back hemangiosarcoma. In all honesty, I wouldn't wait unless you are positive you aren't going to do surgery. I will forever regret not having an ultrasound done back when I thought Cory was "a little off." That mass rupturing just seeded cancer throughout his abdomen that much faster. If they x-ray your dog's chest and see tumor or do an ultrasound and see tumor elsewhere in her abdomen I wouldn't do surgery. I'd just enjoy what time she has left and see that she enjoys it too. If everything else is clean and the only tumor is in the spleen I'd get it out. It could be benign. I'm sorry for what you are going through. At the time I didn't know what was the right thing to do for Cory. I'm glad I did what I did. He had more time to do what he enjoyed and it gave me extra time with him. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 I would not want to wait around. I really recommend you talk to your vet ASAP and look at options for getting a clearer picture of what is going on, also ASAP. Ultrasounds are usually not too hard to find, aren't real expensive and may provide valuable information. Without a better diagnosis or at least narrowing down possibilities, reading may not provide the answers you are seeking. This is the time to be talking with your vet and perhaps getting a second opinion. Your friends want to be supportive, but however well-meaning, they are not experts on veterinary care. It is imperative to partner with a vet to decide on a course of treatment for your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 I don't think they do ultrasound- can't find anything about it on their website. I suppose I'll go to their walk-in clinic and wait to go into the vet and ask? Or would it be better to write them an email asking so they can reply to me and I don't have to queue with the dog, and they don't have to pull the info up on the spot? Or maybe ask at the desk? I am at the 'asking stupid questions because my brain is not going to make a sensible decision' stage, sorry . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 Call the clinic NOW, explain the situation and ask if they can perform an abdominal ultrasound. Tell them that vet X at their clinic wants to perform surgery and you need more information so you can make an informed decision If yes, there is an ultrasound--> make appt for ASAP If no ultrasound-->ask for a referrel I just paid $300 for an abdominal ultrasound that performed by a board-certified radiologist that goes from clinic to clinic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted May 5, 2015 Report Share Posted May 5, 2015 I recently paid $200 for both abdominal and chest ultrasounds by a board certified radiologist, although I did have to travel about an hour. It should have been $250, but he gave me a $50 discount, I think because he liked Bodhi, who made exceptionally easy work of it, so much. The same U/S at Cornell would have been $500, $250 each, with travel time the same. So costs can vary. I'm with the rest, though. I think I'd be asking more questions and asking about an U/S and probably a second opinion before making a decision soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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