Back side?

[Killua]

What Q do you guys use for them to take the back side of the jump?

 

I cant use back or out. i use it so often that it wont make sense to them.

[CptJack]

Technically, I use 'push'.

Practically, I use VERY few verbals when running with my dog, and the further into this we go the more of them I drop. "Out" "Here" "Switch" (and man, I am failing at teaching switches) and rarely the occasional obstacle name for discrimination purposes are about it for me. I just get too tongue tied trying to call out commands while running, remembering the courses, watching the dog, trying to get to where I need to be, trying to get the dog where she needs to be and not falling on my face. It also saves the dog having to slow up and wait on me to yell out the next command (shutting up has sped us up so much). Fortunately, she's gotten better at reading the non-verbals with experience.

 

(I am not super experienced, I'm not telling you what to do, just babbling on about my experiences with it so far)

[gcv-border]

I use "Around".

 

Like CptJack, I try not to rely on verbals to guide my dog around the course. To direct my dog around the back side of the jump, I will step towards his path and swing my arm around the outside of the jump (and say "Around" if possible). Of course, this strategy relies on getting to the appropriate position to influence my dog's path. As I have continued to train and use this command, with the accompanying body language, I find that I do not have to be as close to the jump to influence his path.

 

My work really paid off a couple of weekends ago at a trial because the judge did use tight wraps and one or two back sides in his higher level courses. Having said that, I got most of the hard stuff but screwed up on the easy - probably because I took his performance for granted and did not support him as I should have. I have to keep reminding myself that he gets performance anxiety at trials and is less independent than during practice.

[Root Beer]

With Dean I used "fly".

 

But, as others have said, I rely primarily on body language and use the verbal to back it up. But it was "fly". I use "out" with Tessa because I haven't trained a "fly" on her.

[Killua]

Technically, I use 'push'.

 

Practically, I use VERY few verbals when running with my dog, and the further into this we go the more of them I drop. "Out" "Here" "Switch" (and man, I am failing at teaching switches) and rarely the occasional obstacle name for discrimination purposes are about it for me. I just get too tongue tied trying to call out commands while running, remembering the courses, watching the dog, trying to get to where I need to be, trying to get the dog where she needs to be and not falling on my face. It also saves the dog having to slow up and wait on me to yell out the next command (shutting up has sped us up so much). Fortunately, she's gotten better at reading the non-verbals with experience.

 

(I am not super experienced, I'm not telling you what to do, just babbling on about my experiences with it so far)

I have a very fast border collie and I really need to use verbal commands. 'Push' is a good suggestion.

[Killua]

I have two border collies and they are both very different. One i can run with her without saying much, but my other one who is blazing fast.... I have to have a verbal command. I think i will go with 'push' thanks for everyones suggestions though.

[mum24dog]

Round.

 

Current competing collie needs and responds to a whole load of verbal cues. He's easily distracted and needs as much info as you can throw at him. My daughter runs him.

 

Youngster is being taught verbals but I doubt if they will be used as much with him which will suit me as I have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time.

[CptJack]

I have the vaguest hope that when Molly is ready to do this stuff more solidly that I will have gained the ability to USE the verbals appropriately instead of doing bone-headed things like verbally cue a jump when what I mean is tunnel, or to forget what word I want and come to a dead stop while I stammer inarticulately.

 

I am very, very glad to have started agility with the dog I did. She's pretty good at this game and puts up with my crap. Me? Notsomuch. Not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time is really it. Last time course we ran I was so worried about her weave entry that I forgot to worry about the cross after them. We managed to get our positions switched but it was UGLY.

 

SOMETHING always falls out of my head.

 

Also Rootbeer - that trial I promised to stop chickening out of? 10 days. We're doing 4 runs. I am surprisingly non-nervous. Probably because I've made peace with the fact that I'm going to do something horrible and have stopped caring. The practice run throughs we've been doing to are elite courses, so at least it'll be easier in that regard.

 

(Sorry for the hijack Killua)

[mum24dog]

Really common to be so amazed that you got a tricky bit right that you forget about the easier stuff that follows.

[teresaserrano]

CptnJack, I just entered us in a dogdisc competition 3 weeks from now. Mainly to be able to go to the trains before, as I don't train disc throwing with a group, just mess around with Tess, and thought the group train would be fun AND I would learn a lot. I'm pretty sure our performance at the competition will be awfull, as in I throwing so badly that poor Tess won't catch one, but I'm trying to cultivate a state of mind where that doesn't matter, as long as we have fun. And it really doesn't matter, except I get nervous nevertheless. So I throw even worse than usual.

[Laurelin]

Push = back side of a jump

 

Out = run away from me and take what is in front of you

 

I cue quite a bit and find it tends to help clarify things with my dogs. Hank is very new to this so needs a lot of support to go the right places. If not he just kind of assumes and has done 2-3 obstacles before I can get him back with me. My dogs also seem to do better if I am very 'up' and loud and fast too.

[Root Beer]

CptJack - HAVE A BLAST!! Please, please let us know how it goes!!

 

Shoot - I'm doing a Freestyle competition with Tessa this Saturday and I'm of the mindset "we will just go have fun!" She has little love for Freestyle and I have promised her that she can retire once she gets her last Intermediate leg. (She gets an Agility competition the following weekend as her reward for doing what I want this week!)

 

So, no big expectations. No worries if it all goes wrong. We will just go have fun, do our best, and I will appreciate the time in the ring with her. You never get it back. I know to love every experience, no matter how it goes.

[gcv-border]

Round.

 

 

Actually, I think that when I say "Around", it probably comes out as "Round" since single syllables are much easier.

 

CptJack - Are you going to Andrea's trial? I would like to show up for day of trial entry, but not sure I will make it - but the possibility remains in the back of my mind.

[CptJack]

I am going to Andrea's trial, yes! We won't be there Friday (work) but will be on Saturday and Sunday. If you show up, look for me and come say hi! Well, look for Kylie I guess and come say hi. We'll be at the one end of May, too, though that one's all games. One run Saturday for us, 3 on Sunday, but all probably there there all day, either way.

I still haven't worked up the nerve to go to the Star City ones yet, and am still trying to figure out what else might be around, and Andrea's our trainer, so it's pretty comfortable (and the people are great)

[gcv-border]

Star City NADAC trials are very laid-back too. And since they now seem to be held at Green Hill Park in Salem, they will be closer to you. (They used to be at Hollins U. - just another 10 minutes further north on I-81.)

 

Last year, Star City had a NADAC trial in the fall. Not sure what they are planning this year. (I am not a member of Star City since the club is too far away (45-60 minutes), but a lot of my friends are members.)

[CptJack]

I'll keep an eye open. Doing these few 'in my back yard' (I laugh - it's 45 minutes away) with the people I trained with should be a pretty easy way to get my feet wet and gain a little bit of confidence first. I'm really NOT concerned about the dog - what goes on there is going to happen - but I'd like to have a better understanding of how the trials run and what I need to, before I go outside the neighborhood, as it were.

 

I know AADS is doing three trials a year, now. Used to be just April and October. This year the extra is in May but going forward looks like it's going to be indoors in the livestock arena in Jan. THAT should be interesting for all sorts of people. But yeah, I've heard just about everyone locally is really nice, and Andrea was nice enough to give me a few really experienced people to keep an eye open for if I got too unsure or had (more) questions.

 

I'm EXCITED!

[alligande]

As another you can't walk and talk I have to keep my commands very simple, I have tried training myself to remember more interesting words but I always fail! I use back, as that is what I say regardless of what I want to. I also wanted another word as I use back for backing up, but he seems to have no problem realizing the different meaning as I never ask him to back up on an agility course.

[CptJack]

I think, sometimes, we don't give body language and the dogs enough credit. Not always, just sometimes, I have no doubt some dogs really do need verbals, and some dogs are very used to them and rely on them and mostly I think dogs adapt to their handlers.

 

All my joking about telling Kylie to jump tunnels aside, if I point her at a tunnel (even at a good distance and moving fast) and I yell "tunnel" she is going to go through the tunnel, not over it. If I step toward her and fling my arm out as if I'm asking her to go to the back, even if I'm at some distance away, she's probably going to wrap and take the backside.

 

I dunno. I've got practice tomorrow night. I think I'm going to play with it and see what happens if I actually run silent and then compare to running with words (on a different bit of the course).

Then I'm going to spend the rest of the time working on wrong side weaves because blergh.

[alligande]

Training in Europe features a lot of strange entries and going to the backside of the jump, so in the last 9 months we have done a lot of this. The command "back" on its own will not send my dog to the back of the jump, but it will help me get him to the back if I can not be as close to the jump as I would like to rely on body language alone.

This winter I have had the opportunity to train with a number of world team members, 3 from Spain, 2 from Holland and what is interesting is their different approaches, all use body language, all encourage distance, but some use verbals heavily and the dogs thoroughly understand the command as a distinctive cue, others used verbals as reinforcement and ran more like I do, relatively quiet.

[CptJack]

I think I just need to get more into One Mind Dog handling stuff. They're based in Finnland (or were) and it was developed for/inspired by a deaf dog. Not that I expect it to work fantastically for Molly, ultimately, but I think the system fits me more than a lot of the more popular handling systems.

 

...Not that I want a SYSTEM, per se, but that I might pick up some useful stuff? I don't know, right now I kind of want to experiment with everything in the world.

[gcv-border]

Although we are getting Off Topic, I enjoy this discussion.

 

Regarding "handling systems": I, also, prefer to try and understand the skills of several different handling systems. I like having many "tools in the toolbox", as it were. My approach probably comes from the fact that I have never been 'lucky' enough to train from foundation through accomplished, trialing dog using one handling system exclusively - a consequence of living in a region that is a black hole for agility trainers and trials. So I have had to learn through local trainers (of mixed expertise) and the occasional attendance at a weekend clinic.

 

In my area, the "One Mind" handling system seems to be the most popular right now. I heard about them approx 2 years ago, and have followed them since (I just follow their posts on FB, etc, I have not signed up for their training membership). IMHO, their popularity is due to an aggressive marketing campaign. Having said that, I do know some of their moves and they really make a lot of sense. OTOH, at a recent trial, I was watching a couple of agility acquaintances who I know are 'into' the One Mind thing, and while watching their walk-through and subsequent run, I could see that there were one or two spots where they forced a OM move - which didn't work. IMO, there was a much easier option. This is not to say that the OM system is not good. I think that it was a matter of not totally understanding the system. If I had the time, I would certainly love to get more serious about learning the OM system.

 

Anyway, I am babbling.

 

I was introduced to competitive agility with a trainer that taught the Garrett/Derrett system, and I could pretty rapidly see that many of the 'rules' were not going to work for me. That led to my band-aid approach where I try to learn many 'tools' so I can use them as needed. Doesn't always work, but I am learning a lot.

[CptJack]

I'm going to babble back at you.

 

I really think I'm at a similar place as you (and not just geographically), though not nearly as far along in the game. That isn't to say that I don't have a trainer - I do, and she's a good one . I've done foundations, beginner and intermediate classes with her with Kylie and intend to do the same with Molly.

The thing is, my schedule and hers are limited. If I wait for her to be available to teach me everything (either in classes that are offered, as best I can tell, about once a year and fairly often cancelled due to lack of interest/enough people, OR in private lessons because of her own schedule/regulars) I'm never going to get anywhere, ever.

 

So I'm doing a lot of casting around right now to figure out what works for MY dog and picking up bits and pieces here and there and trying a LOT of things and keeping bits and tossing a lot. I only NOW feel like I know enough to really see where the holes in my training are well enough to try to look for ways to fill them in - or patch them, in some cases.

 

I'll be honest. A lot of what I'm doing right now is crude. Sometimes I trip over the dog, some things just don't work, sometimes they do but they're really, really ugly. Even some of the things I've learned in in person lessons I've had to change for my dogs - start line stays are okay, but slingshots are better; stopped contacts don't work because she won't go again about 75% of the time.

 

I don't know. I guess right now I'm just cobbling together whatever I can to get around the course and have fun with my dog and digging pretty relentlessly through everything I can find to make it happen. OMD, Susan Garret, youtube, watching all the nadac v-runs I can and watching other people during run throughs.

 

I just want to play.

[Laurelin]

I'm not at a level where I really care about handling systems. I don't honestly get the hoopla. My trainer really likes Jaako (spelling?) turns though.

 

I can't even explain a blind cross versus a rear cross. I ask all the time. And I'm always answered with 'You do them all the time!' Apparently I do things and have no idea why a lot.

 

I have been told I am going to have to be much more precise and conscientious with Hank though and I definitely see that a lot. Summer saved me constantly and being faster than her made things a lot simpler in many ways.

[CptJack]

I can handle blind, take off side rear, and front okay and even explain and understand the differences between them. What I can't necessarily do is put them to good use at the time. In fact, I don't even REMEMBER where I cross in the aftermath. Pretty sure I switch sides with the dog plenty but when and where and how? Heck if I know.

I'm trying to work on that, after nearly stepping on the dog this weekend when we got tangled up coming out of weaves. :/

[Blackdawgs]

I initially resisted verbals because I always had a terrible time with left and right while riding horses. After some encouragement from people who used them, I started experimenting and verbals are now part of my repetoire. I've found that using verbals only at key places/transition points (mostly left, right, easy), actually helps me to memorize the course and I suspect that I make subconscious changes in my handling because I know that an "easy left" or whatever is coming up. Since i started using verbals, I feel like my timing has improved and that my dog and I are more together.

 

when I taught backsides using a single jump, I used "behind", but find that I rarely use a verbal for backsides when running sequences/courses.

 

As for handling systems and marketing thereof, these are interesting times indeed.