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More info on spay/neuter ages


GentleLake
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So when is the safest time to spay/neuter?

 

I have waited on my current dogs. I think Tommy and Zeke were both at least 3 and I haven't neutered Joey and won't as long as he keeps acting like he is now. He hasn't really changed his behavior at all and I really haven't had to deal with any obnoxious "boy" stuff. He's just fine. I had a minor problem when the dog next door was in season. Joey all of a sudden started marking in the house. But He knocked it off as soon as she came out of season.

 

We've talked about this before here. We have all really been conditioned to think that we should spay/neuter at an early age. And it looks like it might be better to wait until the dogs are a bit older to give them time to finish developing.

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It's studies like these that make me nervous. Callie was spayed at 8 weeks and we didn't have a choice. All of the dogs are spayed before they're released from the shelter - it makes sense, but still worries me that she could have had a better shot at not getting any of these conditions.

 

Fortunately, she's healthy right now at her young age and we're very attentive to her health since we really don't know what kind of dog she is. I'm hoping she lives a very long, happy life regardless of the risk factors.

 

Thanks for sharing the article, GentleLake.

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I'd really like to see a compilation of all the available data in a chart that lists the potential risks by breed and sex for early spay/neuter vs later spay/neuter vs none. There is a lot of info out there from a lot of different studies and it would be nice to be able to see it all together to analyse it better.

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I never know what to believe. I had one that was spayed before age 1 and lived to be 15, one of my girls that was spayed around 3 only lived to 10 due to a tumor around the heart.

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The thing is, none of us have enough dogs of our own to be statistically relevant. So if I've had 10 dogs who were all spayed and neutered and all died of various cancers, had hip dysplasia and various other ailments that shortened their lives, it doesn't prove any more than anyone else's stories about their dogs.

 

I'm not trying to be crotchety about it, but I just don't see the point. So what if a dozen people here had dogs who were spayed or neutered early and lived a long time? It doesn't prove anything. It's statistics over time and with large numbers of dogs that identify trends.

 

And even with the trends showing that spayed and neutered dogs have higher risks of developing certain cancers (or not) or some skeletal problems, it doesn't ever mean that every single dog will succumb.

 

So, again, what's the point of people posting the stories about their own dogs? I'm just not understanding how it contributes to the discussion. If there is a point, I'm all ears . . .

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To me there seems to be enough data to support leaving my male intact until 2 y/o an and maybe indefinitely unless I find a compelling reason to neuter.

 

The data doesn't seem to be so clear cut with females. Seems to be more of a "pick your risk" sort of thing (at least that is my conclusion from the studies I've read)

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I really hate articles that quote relative risks rather than absolute risks.

Four times a minimal risk is still minimal.

And the recommendation to consult a holistic vet in that particular article makes it somewhat agenda ridden to me.

I prefer objectivity and neutrality together with useful facts and figures.

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My emergency room vet really pushed having females spay fairly early - like at 9 months. He thought it was important that the chance of mammary tumors or cancer goes down to near zero if you spay early. No vet I have ever talked to thought spaying/neutering at a very early age was advisable. Most wouldn't even do it until at least 6 months.

 

And then there is the chance of a female getting a catastrophic uterine infection. Especially as they get closer to middle age. I was always more afraid of that so I got the females spayed around 9 months to a year just to be on the safe side.

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I really hate articles that quote relative risks rather than absolute risks.

Four times a minimal risk is still minimal.

And the recommendation to consult a holistic vet in that particular article makes it somewhat agenda ridden to me.

I prefer objectivity and neutrality together with useful facts and figures.

I agree with this BUT I've extrapolated my conclusion from reading a variety of data compilations from academic sources. Every one points to generally higher risks of several common cancers in males who have been neutered. Is it a significantly greater risk? No. But I haven't read anything that points to a compelling reason for a routine neuter other than to prevent unwanted litters. So I'm at the "wait for a reason" stage. If a significant behavioral or health issue arises that could be dealt with through neutering then I'd absolutely have I done then.

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And the recommendation to consult a holistic vet in that particular article makes it somewhat agenda ridden to me.

 

What are you suggesting the agenda is?

 

I see the articles coming from holistic vets because they're the ones who are putting this information together and bringing it to light instead of blindly following the status quo. Advising people to delay or even to consider not spaying and neutering their pets isn't necessarily in their own financial best interests. Ditto with over vaccinating. Both of these procedures bring the clients into the office, but at what cost to the pets? Advocating for health care that prevents illness isn't exactly an agenda that supports their financial bottom line, but rather a genuine interest in better quality of life for their patients.

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Sorry. My bad. I typed a response here, but I doubt it would contribute to the discussion, either. So, I'll just edit that out, leave my apology and move on.

 

 

The thing is, none of us have enough dogs of our own to be statistically relevant. So if I've had 10 dogs who were all spayed and neutered and all died of various cancers, had hip dysplasia and various other ailments that shortened their lives, it doesn't prove any more than anyone else's stories about their dogs.

 

I'm not trying to be crotchety about it, but I just don't see the point. So what if a dozen people here had dogs who were spayed or neutered early and lived a long time? It doesn't prove anything. It's statistics over time and with large numbers of dogs that identify trends.

 

And even with the trends showing that spayed and neutered dogs have higher risks of developing certain cancers (or not) or some skeletal problems, it doesn't ever mean that every single dog will succumb.

 

So, again, what's the point of people posting the stories about their own dogs? I'm just not understanding how it contributes to the discussion. If there is a point, I'm all ears . . .

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The thing is, none of us have enough dogs of our own to be statistically relevant. So if I've had 10 dogs who were all spayed and neutered and all died of various cancers, had hip dysplasia and various other ailments that shortened their lives, it doesn't prove any more than anyone else's stories about their dogs.

. . .

It was the personal stories that helped me make the decision about neutering and understanding the consequences of my decision. I appreciate that it does not contribute to the scientific conclusion, but I am not a scientist, my degrees are in History, and so I read all sorts of papers about neutering, trying to stick with reliable sources not random blogs, then I came here and read real world examples as well as talking to people in my agility world. Outside of agility I was the only person I knew who was contemplating not neutering, and so had no friends/acquaintances to ask, and this board was invaluable helping me decide to not neuter my current dog and see what happens.

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Based on the available information, I would not adopt a rescue dog, that was sterilized prior to sexual maturity. If I was adopting a rescue dog specifically as a sports prospect, I would not adopt a dog that was sterlized prior to at least 1 year of age.

 

My vets told me that I should keep my male intact until at least 14 months of age. He was neutered (due to too studly behavior) at just over 2 years of age and has beautiful musculature, much nicer than dogs who were neutered earlier.

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It was the personal stories that helped me make the decision about neutering and understanding the consequences of my decision. I appreciate that it does not contribute to the scientific conclusion, but I am not a scientist, my degrees are in History, and so I read all sorts of papers about neutering, trying to stick with reliable sources not random blogs, then I came here and read real world examples as well as talking to people in my agility world. Outside of agility I was the only person I knew who was contemplating not neutering, and so had no friends/acquaintances to ask, and this board was invaluable helping me decide to not neuter my current dog and see what happens.

 

Yes. This!!

 

I like hearing real people with real dogs share their experiences. I realize it doesn't "prove" anything. That doesn't really matter to me all that much.

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Based on the available information, I would not adopt a rescue dog, that was sterilized prior to sexual maturity. If I was adopting a rescue dog specifically as a sports prospect, I would not adopt a dog that was sterlized prior to at least 1 year of age.

I feel the same way. I often look at rescue sites when the urge to get a dog for agility overcomes me. And unfortunately, most of the younger dogs (not necessarily 8-12 week old pups, but dogs under one year of age) are neutered. I would not adopt if that is the case.

 

I occasionally foster for a BC rescue and have also considered adopting a younger dog from them when a candidate comes into the system, but I am pretty sure that, even though they know me, they would insist on neutering no later than 5-7 months of age. [i say this based on some of the email conversations that have ping-ponged back-and-forth in the group. I have never specifically asked.]

 

There may be a state regulation for non-profit rescue groups that require documentation of neutering before (or very soon after) adoption. I know that the regulatory directives are becoming more strict.

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For those contemplating a rescue dog, there is an alternative to neutering which is a vasectomy. I looked into this when Rievaulx was about 18 months, I adopted him from a small rescue who were willing to work with me about delaying neutering once I explained my reasoning. My vet was willing to do the vasectomy, although she thought we should just leave him intact, for me it was fulfilling an obligation on the adoption contract. We never went ahead as our other dog became ill and over a two year period we just kept spending money at the vets, and by that time even the rescue agreed there was no reason to go ahead. We were a foster home for them so they knew him well.

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Obviously, vasectomy is only an option for males. ;)

 

But there are also ovary sparing spays for the females. Not as many vets are well versed in this procedure, but one could be found if a person were committed.

 

Tansy had just been spayed when I adopted her at 6 months. I seriously considered passing on her because of it. If I weren't able to work with a rescue next time around to do either a vasectomy or ovary sparing spay, I'd probably pass.

 

I could see offering them a pretty hefty refundable deposit, to be returned upon proof of neutering. Many rescues would consider that as a show of good faith.

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  • 2 months later...

Did you notice the article on Cushings? They are using melatonin to treat it?

 

My ER vet really believes that early spay drops chance of mammary tumors to zero.

 

I'm glad all my dogs were spayed and neutered late. Joey isn't neutered and i'm not seeing anything negative about his behavior so far.

 

Tommy was 3 when I had her spayed. It's just such a nuisance to have a female in heat. And I am afraid of uterine infection which is awful. Zeke was 3. I would not have a puppy spayed early now. I used to think it was gospel because that was all I hadever heard. No more.

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There was a thread a couple weeks ago started by someone who was having her 6 mo. old spayed that week. She'd read that spaying before the first heat "prevents" mammary cancer. Obviously her vet didn't disabuse her of this notion, perhaps believed it him- or herself.

 

Someone else commented in the thread that their vet had warned her to watch for mammary tumors in her newly adopted dog because she'd already had pups and that the risk of mammary tumors increases 25% in dogs who've had 2 heat cycles. There's another vet who's repeating the party line.

 

I used to believe that spays and neuters should be done around 6 months, too, before a female's first heat and before a male's adolescence. But I've known for a long time now that that's questionable at best. How can the vets not know this?

 

I understand that vets can't possibly read every study that comes out, but how is it that so many are missing this? Obviously some are reading it because they're writing about it. And there are definitely conversations going on among informed lay people, so why are vets seeming to be less informed? It's a lot like the vaccination issue, where some vets (quite a few actually) still recommend vaccinating annually when their own professional associations publish different guidelines -- and those were politically motivated rather than based on science!

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I suspect it's the party line, with all the effort that the shelter/rescue organizations put in to cutting the stray numbers down and using the health benefits of spay/neuter as one of the main reasons. My vet recommended that I keep Rievaulx intact untill he was at least a year (she also bred standard poodles) and then continued to recommend that we don't bother as he was not an "annoying boy" but I had known her for 13 years, and I know they regularly spayed/ neutered at 6 months.

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