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training techniques for aggession on leash?


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Linda,

I don't know if you have tried it yet, but I took the advice above and got a gentle leader. She's just getting used to it (she's kind of annoyed by it right now), but it's already making a difference in me being able to keep her attention.

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muggs I did try the gentle leader and she fights it every time I put it on. It was suggested I don't try it for about 30 days and then introduce it again. That time is coming up soon.

 

I just went back and reread all the good info listed here. rtphokie you had some good advise about diagnosing the problem before treating the symptoms. But how do I determine what the problem is?

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Oh Linda what a wonderful reply to my question. Thank you for not getting defensive! Yes 7 months is way too young to tell if she is worth breeding. Just keep her safe from "wandering" males You know how determined they can be. As for standards for breeding, I would be curious what the breeder you got her from is looking for, does he/she trial, do farm work? It sounds like you are responsible. I have a friend from Manitowoc Wisconsin. Is that near you?

Thanks,

Caroline

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think 7 months is a little too young to tell if a dog would make good pups so it doesn't hurt to wait a little while.

 

Well, actually it does hurt to wait a little while, because the positive health benefits of spaying go away after the bitch has been allowed to have two or three seasons.

 

I had an intact bitch I never intended to breed. Fly was already almost four when I got her, so there didn't seem to be any point in spaying her. She developed a mammary tumor last year that was removed -- a low grade malignancy that is unlikely to recur, but was cancer all the same. I had her spayed, which will help if the cancer is hormone-responsive but she is still at an elevated risk for more tumors since she was spayed late.

 

Frankly, you won't know much more at the end of the summer than you know now. She won't even be a year old, and that's way too young to know if a bitch is worth breeding or not. Coupled with the health risks of pregnancy and whelping, that's something to think about.

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Caroline there is no reason to get defensive. We all care about our pets and only want whats best for them.

The breeder does have a working farm and he also does trials. He takes his dogs to different venues and shows what a Border Collie can do. He then donates the money to a Border Collie rescue in the area.

 

Manitowoc isn't too far from us. It's on the other side of the lake, we do get over that way a couple times a year.

 

Solo, when I said I still had some time to wait before making a decision I meant we would have our decision made by the end of the summer, one way or the other.

She has not gone through her first season yet and is 7 months old so by the time we decide what we will do she will not have had her second season yet. I do understand the health risks, but I also want to be sure I have made the right decision. We are not going into this lightly and our vet is OK with us taking a few months to decide.

I'm sorry you and Fly had to go through the surgery. I hope all continues to go well. I do understand the love you have for the breed because I have it too. My older girl, Lucy (BC) is going to be 11 this year and she is showing signs of slowing down. We all hate to see it but it does happen. Thanks for caring and sharing your story about Fly. If it weren't for people like you I hate to think what would happen to so many of the BC's.

 

Thanks,

Linda

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RE: Gentle leader - see I knew there was a reason I took the time to write all this! (As for whomever is saying it's best to leave a GL on 24 hours for 2 to 3 days, I'd like to put a freaking head collar on them for 24 hours for 2-3 days and see how they like it!!! aghghg!) Ok, all this information came from a very good seminar by Susan Garrett. I've copied this from a previous post of mine:

 

 

Properly fitted the GL can't come off. It is imperative that you propberly fit it so that the dog never learns to get it off.

 

Susan Garrett stands firmly behind the use of GL's as a means to an end. In her seminars she told us that your goal should be to have your dog off the GL after no more than 3 months - hopefully less.

 

Basically, you can approach this 2 ways:

 

1. It's on you now deal with it and if you try to get it off that's too bad.

 

2. Shape it.

 

I did #1 with Buddy (rescue dog) and didn't have one problem with him stopping to try and rip his face off.

 

I did #2 with Marzipan when she was about 16 weeks old.

 

Here it is:

 

1. Shape any approach and interest in the GL while in your hand. You can use a clicker or just reward and praise.

 

2. Open the nose loop as big as it can get. Shape the final behavior of the dog putting her nose into the loop. Name it "put it on" or whatever you want to name. This will be useful because you can hold open the nose loop and give your command and the dog will rush into it.

 

3. With the dog comfortable in the nose loop - tighten it. Reward and keep on for a short time.

 

4. Start to shape the click sound made by the clasp. Make sure the dog is comfortable with this noise right behind their ears, but don't put the GL on her while doing this shaping.

 

5. When you get this all together, get the nose loop on and make sure it's tight. The dog should be 100% comfortable with this by now so lock it. A properly fitted nose loop should be able to slide down just to the top of the nose leather. This "play" allows the dog to pant, drink and catch balls while wearing the GL, but doesn't allow them to get it off. This is a key fitting as it will get the most attempts at removal. Close the clasp behind the ears. Make sure you treat this alot and keep it short.

 

6. Once the dog is comfortable with the thing on, adjust the line behind the ears so it's very tight and right up under the ears. You should just be able to get 1 finger TIGHLTY under this loop. Make sure it stays this tight, check it often. Treat and reward. On and off, short sessions.

 

7. After the dog is 100% comfortable with the GL, it's time for the leash. If Lucy is a big puller you are going to need to work with her when she's really hungry and focused on you so that your rewards are great enough to her for the new "force" she will have on her nose. Attach the leash and ask her to walk. You must choose a location for her to be in - your goal with her - and make sure you are consitent with asking her to stay there. Name it if you want.

A. Maintain a LOOSE leash with her unless you are correcting her. AS SOON AS SHE GETS WHERE YOU WANT HER, release that pressure. Reward her. Keep moving.

B. Hold the leash in the hand away from the side you dog is on. The hand closest to your dog is your "placement hand" and should swing freely at your side. NEVER PULL on the leash unless you are correcting her - THIS IS SOOOO IMPORTANT.

C. Say "walk" or whatever and move forward at a normal pace. When she pulls, QUICKLY place your "placement hand" on the leash and run it down until you grasp the metal ring under the nose loop, hold that tightly and step back 1 pace placing her in the location you want her. When you do this, you want to pull her head into her body, not to the side or around. You want her to back up. AS SOON AS SHE GETS THERE, release and step forward AS YOU REWARD HER (food, praise, whatever). Keep moving forward. Reward once and go back to normal. Remember to train the position.

D. Keep walking forward and do this again and again until she gets the hint. Always end on a good note and keep the session VERY SHORT. (Put 3 treats in your right pocket, end session when they are all gone.)

 

8. Never let her stop and try to rip her face off. Keep moving, she has to follow you.

 

9. Be patient and consistent with her, especially if she's a big puller.

 

10. Weaning them off the GL.

A. When she's 100% with the GL on in all different types of situations, un-do the nose loop, but keep the rest of it on her head. Attach the leash to her regular collar. At the first sign of pulling, but the GL back on and work a few days with it.

B. When you can move around with just the head strap on, take it off her head completely but ATTACH TO THE HANDLE END OF THE LEASH. Keep it there for as long as you can. First sign of pulling, back on it goes and work with her a few days with it on. If you have to go from keeping it on the leash, to her head many times, then you are going to fast.

 

This is a 3 month plan...so allow it to happen and do not push to fast. It does work. I highly suggest you get a GL and return the Halti as it can come off easily and slips around like mad.

 

Good luck...if you have any questions, let me know.

 

Denise

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Denise, have you read Susan Garrett's book Ruff Love? At the beginning of her "program" she has you keep the GL on the dog for several days straight, doesn't she? Of course I can't find my copy of the book right now to confirm this! I remember when the book first came out there was a Ruff Love yahoo group and I asked if you should leave the GL on at agility class and I think Susan herself answered yes.

 

Cara

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Cara - I have not read her book Ruff Love. But I just went to her seminar in Jan. And some others actually went to her place in Canada a few weeks ago. She NEVER said to keep it on for many days straight. It was all shaping with treats, etc.

 

I do know that she did have "extra help" for thoses folks with dogs that were more pig-headed. In many of those cases she refered them to her book. (Which I feel is too strict/extreme for my own personal training style.)

 

PS - I didn't mean to direct my comment to the poster of the "put the GL for 2-3 days straight" item. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

Denise

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Ok, found the book. She does talk briefly about shaping the acceptance of the GL with puppies but it's a pretty short chapter and your instructions are much more detailed. With dogs though, she says the leave the GL on for 3 days to begin with, even while they are in their crate. Then after than you can take it off a night but otherwise the dog wears the GL at all time when out of the crate for the first stage of the program - 7 weeks.

 

I went to a puppy seminar with Susan about 3 years ago and really got a lot out of it and many people from around here go to her camps (about 8 hours away). I've done Ruff Love to some degree with all of my dogs and really like it. It is pretty strict but you can modify it to suit you, I know I did. If you can, I'd recommend getting it even just for the attention games. I know many people who have done the program with their dogs to varying degrees with much success and it's definitely not just for dogs who need "extra help". My very distracted, hard to bond with dog came a long way with it. And now since I've found the book and looked at it I'm going to start my youngest dog (who's become a very pushy alpha bitch) on some Ruff Love...so glad I read this thread (but my dog isn't going to be).

 

Cara

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Hi Cara -

 

Yes, I should pick it up. I had a copy for a few days but was turned off by some of it. Also, since I had just spent 4 days with her, I had so much fresh information and was trying to get it straight in my head.

 

Does she go into detail with crate games? She really stressed the importance of crate games with all dogs and I've had such great success with the little that I could recall from the seminar.

 

How I WISH I could go to her place!! Ugh!!! We are hoping she will come back to Hawaii, but she is NOT cheap and there are not many folks out here that recognize her for the trainer that she is. Our club paid for all the instructors to attend and I probably would not have gone if I had to pay (not knowing who she was). But I'm so glad I went and I'm crossing my fingers that she will come back to Hawaii soon.

 

Let us know how your girl comes along with the techniques you use.

 

Denise

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Denise-

 

Crate games? Beyond teaching them not to come out of their crates until released? Explain to me what you mean and I'll look.

 

You should get the book. I thought it was pretty strict at first but I really believe that all of the things she has you do really do build a better relationship with your dogs. Like I said, you can modify it to suit you and still have success. And if you've seen her with her dogs you can't find fault with much. She gets her dog Decaff to go nuts just with an intake of breath which is pretty cool.

 

Yes, she is expensive and pretty hard to book also. We've tried to get her but honestly it's hard to get her to answer an email. If you really like her though and her methods, I'd recommend trying to get one of her instructors out there. I've been to seminars with a couple of them and loved them.

 

Someday I'll bite the bullet and go to one of her camps. There are so many great ones around now that it's hard to choose. Clean Run Camp is actually only about 25 minutes away from me this year (but I'm not going).

 

Cara

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