Working bred versus sports bred ... interesting conversations with top competitors

[borasaurus]

OMG. I was so not prepared when I clicked on the Chinese show GSD picture. It looks deformed - like there's something off about it (or more than one thing). After looking at the working one, I can see why people suggest Kieran might be part GSD. I'm just so used to seeing the show/pet lines around here.

[Riika]

To be fair these are nothing like AKC show line GSDs. It looks like the Chinese have taken West German showline GSDs and made them more mastiff like (why?). The AKC showlines don't tend to have the roached back like these dogs but do tend to have highly exaggerated rear angulation. I do not like either type of show GSD (American or West German).

 

There are tons of working GSDs out there though being bred in the US.

 

EDIT: Here's a page showing the various GSD types.

 

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm

Yes I realize that the AKC GSDs are different than the Chinese bred-I was just referring to AKC.

 

It's not that hard to find WL Labs or GSDs in the US. They're not as easy to find as the pet/show/byb dogs of course but, when you start asking in the right places, they're certainly out there.

What are the right places?

 

Volunteering at the vet clinic, I've seen two GSD pups that looked pretty soundly built to my inexperienced eye. Alas, I wasn't brave enough to go up and ask where they'd gotten them from.

[Eileen Stein]

There are tons of working GSDs out there though being bred in the US.

If that's true, then why does every police K-9 handler and vet I talk to say they have to go to Europe to get a decent GSD?

[Riika]

Also, I just remembered that German Shepherds were originally bred for herding. (Duh) So are there ANY herding GSDs around anymore? I've never seen one anywhere.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

If I wanted a German Shepherd (pretty good guard dog, adequate small farm sheepdog) I would go to http://www.whitecloversheepfarm.com/.

I don't know anyone else.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maralynn]

Finding a working GSD is kinda like finding a working Border Collie. You need to be in the network. The good ones bred here are apt to be from small time breeders. They don't have websites, you find them at trails and through friends and you have to get your name on a list and wait for a litter

 

Police handlers usually just head to Europe as that is where the brokers and larger kennels consistently producing good dogs are. When you need a dog, they can find one for you pretty quick (which can be a priority) instead of the putting the networking in here and waiting for a well bred litter in the US.

 

For instance, a friend has a nice GSD bitch that competes in shutzhund. The dog has produced some nice pups who are sound sport/working dogs but has only bred bred twice in 4-5 years now. So while the pups have been quality, there is hardly a consistent supply of them.

[Maralynn]

Even many of the working GSDs I see have a bit too much length in the back leg and a suggestion of a roached back. While I have seen a few I liked, most have still strayed too far from the original working type to be as sound/athletic as they could be. There was actually a "pet" breeder in the northeast with some old lines; very moderate, lovely structure and rock solid temperaments. Had I been in the market for a GSD, I wold have seriously considered one from that breeder.

 

The sloping back and funky stand makes them look powerful (when in reality is does the opposite).

 

I'd say at least half of the ones I see in SAR work leave something to be desired structure wise. But the nice ones sure are beautiful.

 

I saw a shepherd silhouette design on a SAR sweatshirt and thought "wow, that doesn't look like a GSD". Sure enough - the silhouette came from a picture of a Dutch Shepherd not a German Shepherd.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Maralynn,

 

With respect: no. It is very easy to find a Border Collie that will work stock. Any farmer who works them will have likely pups. I've seen many a farm dog I'd buy. It is very much more difficult to find a working BORDER COLLIE BREEDER which is what most first time buyers are seeking. Er, there aren't any. If you want a top dog, top dog breeders don't breed often and their pups are taken well in advance.

 

While you need connections to find a potential Border Collie pup for trials/started or open trial dog, there's no strong reason such a dog will prove better than the pup you picked up in the back pasture. Border Collie genetics are so much better than German Shepherd genetics that to find a working dog one doesn't need to make friends or be in the know.

 

There are more sound Border Collies. Thousands. Unlike the police handlers who head to europe, you can find all the sound Border Collies you need here.

 

Donald McCaig

[Maralynn]

I'm not sure how this -

The good ones bred here are apt to be from small time breeders. They don't have websites, you find them at trails and through friends and you have to get your name on a list and wait for a litter

 

differs all that much from the formula you give for finding a working Border Collie, Mr McCaig.

 

Substitute breeders for farmers perhaps. But otherwise it's pretty much in line with the suggestions given out by most members of this board when it comes to finding a Border Collie. Go to a trial. Network with people who trial or use Border Collies on the farm. Then someone will know someone who has a litter. You might have to wait for 6-12 months to get the pup you want.

 

If you're not in some farming or trial dog loop, it's quite a bit harder to find those working bred litters. I found my pup through a network of Border Collie people - someone suggested someone who suggested someone else who had a pup. It wasn't hard, but if I hadn't known who/where to start asking in the first place then it would have been.

 

I do agree that overall it is easier to find a good working BC than it is a good working GSD. And it's easier to just go buy a GSD from Europe because they are more common and there is a well established buying network there. But the GSDs can still be found in a reasonable amount of time in the US if you've got a couple connections who have nice dogs.

[geonni banner]

Here is a perfect, scary, sickening example about how breeding for a purpose other than work can ruin a breed.

But at least there are working bred German Shepherd Dogs in China too.

[Tea]

Working

off leash. This is what I know.

 

How bout this.

 

Working off leash at the mobile slaughter unit.

Hop out of the truck and the noise and smell of the place.

 

Where a dog must be direct and calm

And often you must trust her with your back.

 

Or what about this off leash scenario

 

Having to shoot a rifle over your dog's head,

where if she bolted, she may become someone's lunch.

 

One young dog I have had, this happen he was about 1 1/2 years. He had never heard a rifle. But he was bred to be calm, and brave. And he trusted me.

and that day there was little choice.

 

This is what I have learned from my dogs about leashes. They have taught me these things.

 

Some by being

calm, and brave.

[Gloria Atwater]

Also, I just remembered that German Shepherds were originally bred for herding. (Duh) So are there ANY herding GSDs around anymore? I've never seen one anywhere.

 

 

There are German Shepherds herding in AKC and AHBA venues, to varying degrees of ability. All those I've seen are the classic show-type conformation, though, with that exaggerated slope-backed gait.

 

They don't work like border collies, being more of a tending/boundary-working dog than a gathering dog. They'll keep sheep within an area or lane, but they're not really made for outruns or big gathers. AKC even has a "C" course specifically for the tending dogs.

 

I have a Facebook friend in the UK who has the more old-style, working GSD and they look like "real" dogs, no roached back or clapping along on their hocks. One time she posted a video of her moving sheep with her GSD and a border collie, and the GSD kept the rear-most ewes moving by wearing back and forth keeping that "boundary" clean as they moved, while the collie worked the flanks and sides. They were a nice team!

 

~ Gloria

[GentleLake]

Here's a page showing the various GSD types.

 

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm

 

Interesting to read the below quoted portion from this site. It echoes just what we've been saying about border collies bred for reasons other than working ability.

 

It is important to note here that just as singular focus on conformation showing has altered the look and temperament of the show lines over the decades, the same is also happening in the working lines although here the focus is on winning sport competitions rather than conformation shows. As schutzhund, now IPO, has developed into more of a competitive sport and less of a breed test in many cases, breeders, exhibitors and judges have gravitated to certain types of dogs that possess the traits that make for successful competition dogs. And in many cases this specialized breeding has lead to sacrificing overall balance and general utility in favor of focusing on a more narrow set of specific drives and temperament traits. Many of these dogs that excel on the sport field lack characteristics needed to also be able to perform other forms of work and serve as good family companions. This means that with the working lines, just as with any other type, it is important to investigate the focus of the breeder's program and their track record of success to ensure that it fits with your goals and lifestyle. (Emphasis mine.)

 

....While the German Shepherd Dog has seen huge increases in popularity over the past several decades, this has been more detrimental than advantageous for the breed as a whole. Most German Shepherd Dogs in the world today, and almost all that can be found in the United States, have lost their working ability. They have been bred to win in the conformation show ring, or to serve solely as family pets, without true understanding or regard for the breed’s origin and intended purpose. In most cases, the characteristics that are required for a working dog have been neglected either intentionally in favor of breeding for looks, or unintentionally through ignorance and lack of use. The result is that the German Shepherd Dog’s working ability has been diluted to the point that it is virtually nonexistent in many German Shepherds and relatively few GSDs today can do the work their ancestors did.

 

Maintaining the original characteristics of the breed is an all important part of ensuring the longevity and quality of the German Shepherd breed as a whole.

[kingfisher7151]

Very interesting. The beginning also sounds a little like the situation with working BC's of trial dogs vs. ranch/farm dogs. Not in as negative of a light though.

[aschlemm]

Seeing what has happened to the GSD is awful. I found the old black and white Rin Tin Tin series on tv and love watching it. What a beautiful dog! What happened!!! Who ever thought that that sloped, roached back with those deformed hocks was at all appropriate!!!! I want to find a GSD like Rin Tin Tin!

[GentleLake]

I loved Rin Tin Tin and German shepherds as a child. I hate what's happened to them.

[B Point]

This thread is both interesting yet depressing at the same time. Japan is a horror show of BC breeding ignorance. Other than a very underground fringe of responsible breeders (just finding them now) the vast majority are breeding for color simply because people are unaware. I've met "ONE" dog that was an actual working dog....ONE!! And there are a lot of BC's around.

Hell, I even thought a Border Collie equaled "Frisbee Dog" until I found this site. Aahh.......regardless,, I'm still going to introduce my two boys to sheep sometime this year just to satisfy my own curiosity. Expectations are low.

[alligande]

I met a lovely GSD male puppy here in Mallorca last week, he had lovely shape and I started chatting with his german owner, and she told me that in Germany they credit the breeds survival to East Germany, the West German GSDs were well on their way to the dogs we all dislike, but in East Germany the dogs had remained sound. The puppy had come from Germany and was going to be an IPO and obediance dog.

[Pam Wolf]

BPoint. those who work the dogs in Japan do know the 3 types and regularly refer to them as show, working or sport. Often the sport dog is a mix of working and show (or simply sport dog to sport dog). Try to check out the Japanese Sheepdog Trials Association (not sure what the exact name is). That is the group that started the process for entry to the World Trials. There is also a fellow (Boya Farm?) On the northern island who holds lessons or such, but there is another near Fuji-san which is closer to you. There is another fellow who has a very small place. His is quite good (also ran in the World Trials) but limited in space. I think he has an acre or so. But he has held clinics with Aled Owens

[B Point]

BPoint. those who work the dogs in Japan do know the 3 types and regularly refer to them as show, working or sport. Often the sport dog is a mix of working and show (or simply sport dog to sport dog). Try to check out the Japanese Sheepdog Trials Association (not sure what the exact name is). That is the group that started the process for entry to the World Trials. There is also a fellow (Boya Farm?) On the northern island who holds lessons or such, but there is another near Fuji-san which is closer to you. There is another fellow who has a very small place. His is quite good (also ran in the World Trials) but limited in space. I think he has an acre or so. But he has held clinics with Aled Owens

 

Thanks again Pam...PM answered. My wife is from Hokkaido (North Island) and I had lived up there for several years. I will be contacting Boya Farm once it warms up a bit to see if I can get a visit arranged with them. I was up there in December but way too much snow to travel out to where they are.