Donald McCaig Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Dear Doggers, Ms. Mum writes: "But real labs are nothing like the breed standard you speak of." Agreed. Except for the way words work to benefit one argument or another. See "Socialism" and "Obamacare". I saw the Working Gundogs class at Crufts. As I recall they were required to have worked for a gamekeeper on an estate within six months of the show. I thought the dogs were much handsomer than the handsome dogs winning the important ribbons, appearing on TV and in the center ring. I also thought the working dogs' handlers were better dressed (knickers/barbours/terrific tweeds) than the celebrity handlers in the showring. From the get go, dog show critics and apologists alike understood that there was a disconnect between "show" and "working" dogs that shared nothing but a - roughly - common appearance and ancestors somewhere back in the pedigree. Show people minimized it, those who needed the dogs insisted on it (mostly to no avail). So the show people started talking about "types", which allowed them to imply that A Lab was a Lab but one was a pet that won show ribbons and the other retrieved ducks under difficult circumstances - and here's the important part - the show people could claim (and did, especially during puppy sale negotiations) that Lab "Duck Pond Sky of Skye" would of course "work" provided he had the time/space/location yadada while the "working Lab" people were left sputtering. "Working Labs" vs what? "Non-working Labs"? I don't recall that category at Crufts. Call them what they are: different breeds bred for different purposes. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 When people ring me to go on our waiting list for agility classes and say they have a lab I ask what type because it informs my decision as to how old they need to be to start. I probably don't need to though as it is years since we saw a show type. If you live where I do lab doesn't generally conjure up visions of a waddling coffee table. Some people will always be susceptible to being misled otherwise why would advertising work? They will find some way of being fooled whatever the label. Stupid? Naive? Gullible? Uninformed? Just don't care? Or even getting what they actually want, whatever the hype? Could be any of them. Reverting to the collie, in agility most people here wouldn't distinguish between work and sporting bred because both have a pretty good chance of being at least adequate for the purpose, also because, as mentioned, there is overlap that blurs the distinction for many. You'd get more comment about a show bred dog, but even there some show breeders inject working blood. It didn't used to be the case but there are some good show bred agility dogs around. I think for most people in my world a dog is defined by what it does well. I'm not advocating anything, just telling it like it is. I have no objection to dogs being bred for a useful purpose. Beyond that I would much rather the surplus in rescue was pmopped up before anyone else thought of breeding, but that's not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Yes, in the US border collies are pretty much always called border collies. I've noticed that in the UK they are called "collies" or "sheepdogs, but if we did that here, people would be apt to think we're talking about the Lassie-type rough collies or Old English sheepdogs. and Shelties ~ Gloria Lassie has a lot to answer for. You just don't get discussion here about who should be allowed to use the name "border collie" because that isn't the every day label of the working dog. It is just a technical term on a piece of paper if the dog is registered. If I come across a breeder's web site containing the words "border collie" I would be a bit suspicious. I've just double checked the web sites of about a dozen working breeders and all say "sheepdog". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 You just don't get discussion here about who should be allowed to use the name "border collie" because that isn't the every day label of the working dog. It is just a technical term on a piece of paper if the dog is registered. Yes, it's so often a mistake to assume that the situation in one country is the same as the situation in another. One of the differences here is that I can't imagine that anyone in the US who is not directly involved with working labs would ever ask what "type" a lab they were told about is. The working lab has been so marginalized here that even in the unlikely event someone knew such a distinction existed, he would just assume the lab in question was the show/sport/pet type. Very occasionally there will be a pet owner who will have gotten a lab of the working "type" and s/he will almost always make a big point of saying so. The usual response is something like an uninterested,"Oh really? Well, he sure is a pretty dog." And privately: "There can't be any distinction there that matters -- a lab is a lab, after all." Another possible difference: I'm guessing the trousers worn by competitors in the Working Gundog class at Crufts would not have been called knickers in the UK? Just a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 "Huh. That's just a poorly bred lab, he was 'sold a pup.' So lanky, not how labs are supposed to look. It doesn't help that it's STARVING." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Maybe it's a Recreational Lab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Dear Doggers, Eileen corrected me: "Another possible difference: I'm guessing the trousers worn by competitors in the Working Gundog class at Crufts would not have been called knickers in the UK? " My blushes, Eileen. "Breeks" of course. Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 Yes, it's so often a mistake to assume that the situation in one country is the same as the situation in another. One of the differences here is that I can't imagine that anyone in the US who is not directly involved with working labs would ever ask what "type" a lab they were told about is. The working lab has been so marginalized here that even in the unlikely event someone knew such a distinction existed, he would just assume the lab in question was the show/sport/pet type. Very occasionally there will be a pet owner who will have gotten a lab of the working "type" and s/he will almost always make a big point of saying so. The usual response is something like an uninterested,"Oh really? Well, he sure is a pretty dog." And privately: "There can't be any distinction there that matters -- a lab is a lab, after all." I happened to notice that when we visited the Outer Banks, virtually all the Labs belonging to the year-rounders were yellow Labs and not at all as portly as your typical pet Lab. A resident pointed out that locals who hunted understood the difference between a "real" (read that as working-bred or field-bred) Lab and a show/pet Lab, and the Labs found residing on the banks were normally not the fat show/pet types so common elsewhere but rather the "useful" (hunting) Labs that could be depended on to help put meat on the table. There are pockets, generally where waterfowl hunting is a serious endeavor, where the difference is well known and recognized, just like where livestock work is a serious endeavor, that people who know dogs know the difference between working-bred and not working-bred. It is a shame that dogs bred for their original purposes are often becoming marginalized by the show/pet segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Since Labs have been mentioned, could a show Lab do this? At 6-50 - 9-10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 I never really see show type labs around. I saw one at the park a while back and it was a big shock for me. He was Hank's age (11 months or so) and very short and fat already. I don't know that I had ever seen one out and about outside of a dog show before. Everyone was commenting on how gorgeous the dog was and the owner was talking about his lineage and how expensive he was. All I could think was that there was no way that particular lab could have retrieved much of anything. I'm sure 90% of the labs I see are not bred for much beyond being a pet but they look nothing like the show type. Around here hunting labs are fairly common though and in Texas many of the labs I would see would be at the park training and working on retrieves in the pond. We had a field trial bred lab when I was a kid. The pet type or unknown breeding type dogs here LOOK more along the lines of the field dogs though some of the pet labs are absolutely massive. But they're not built at all like the show dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Here is a perfect, scary, sickening example about how breeding for a purpose other than work can ruin a breed. working bred German Shepherd Dogs photo photo2 Chinese show line GSDs video photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The Chinese GSDs look horrendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Dear Doggers, The fellow who purchased dogs for the Canadian Mounter Police told me, on average, one in three thousand German Shepherd dogs was suitable for police work. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 The head on that Chinese GSD looks like a St Bernard has been mixed in that line at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 It may just be a myth but I recall reading that even Hitler bemoaned the decline in his favourite breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I thought they look rather like a cross between a GSD and a hog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 I would have wondered if they aren't breeding towards something that looks like a GSD/Tibetan Mastiff combo. You know, bigger is better and more extreme is the best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Oh god. I had never seen those in videos before. I had always hoped they were photoshopped. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Due to my slower download, I couldn't watch the videos even if I wanted to, and I really don't want to. Too distressing. And I had been hoping that photo was photo-shopped, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riika Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Here is a perfect, scary, sickening example about how breeding for a purpose other than work can ruin a breed. working bred German Shepherd Dogs photo photo2 Chinese show line GSDs video photo Out of all breeds the AKC has ruined, I think the GSD get to me the most. I'm not sure why it does anymore than any other dog but it does. The working dog pictures are from the early 1900s-is it even possible to find a working GSD breeder anymore? Maybe imported I suppose..... I've always wanted one-not in the near future, I'm just dreaming at this point-and all I have found are those crippled, walking on their hocks dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnottyClarence Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 wow. wondered what it would look like if one crossed some shar-pei into GSD. Now I know. Didn't really want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 To be fair these are nothing like AKC show line GSDs. It looks like the Chinese have taken West German showline GSDs and made them more mastiff like (why?). The AKC showlines don't tend to have the roached back like these dogs but do tend to have highly exaggerated rear angulation. I do not like either type of show GSD (American or West German). There are tons of working GSDs out there though being bred in the US. EDIT: Here's a page showing the various GSD types. http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Why did they start breeding for that low backend? Was there a reason they thought it was better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 It's not that hard to find WL Labs or GSDs in the US. They're not as easy to find as the pet/show/byb dogs of course but, when you start asking in the right places, they're certainly out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted February 28, 2015 Report Share Posted February 28, 2015 Even many of the working GSDs I see have a bit too much length in the back leg and a suggestion of a roached back. While I have seen a few I liked, most have still strayed too far from the original working type to be as sound/athletic as they could be. There was actually a "pet" breeder in the northeast with some old lines; very moderate, lovely structure and rock solid temperaments. Had I been in the market for a GSD, I wold have seriously considered one from that breeder. The sloping back and funky stand makes them look powerful (when in reality is does the opposite). It would be pretty easy to get to that extreme type in China with just purebred GSDs via selective breeding. There are already huge dogs with broader heads and a bit looser skin in the population. If you only breed those dogs and don't use any of the finer boned or even more moderate animals, you could do it. It happens all the time in purebred dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.