Working bred versus sports bred ... interesting conversations with top competitors

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Coyote writes: "I was thinking about Hob Nob (isn't that the name). That sports breeder seems to have a really good reputation and produces good sports dogs. And gets really big bucks for her puppies. I have no idea if she pays any attention to working ability."

 

I have never met Ms. Janet DeMello. I do know that when we fought the AKC, she was one of the obedience competitors (no agility then) who signed our protest ad and I know that some years ago she competed in sheepdog trials though I don't know if she ever ran a dog in open.

 

The questions here are difficult and complex and I'm grateful for all those willing to weigh in on them.

 

Donald McCaig

[Tommy Coyote]

I do think there is a difference between the working collies and the sports bred or AKC bred dogs. There is just a spark that the working bred dogs have, an intelligence. My working bred dogs are inquisitive and bright and sometimes hard to keep ahead of. They are up for anything and everything.

 

I don't think I know any sport bred dogs but I do take care of 2 AKC dogs. They are very sweet and make great pets. They are good with the kids and the cats and they know lots of tricks.

 

But that spark is just not there. They just aren't the same dog. I can't really define it but I always go for the working bred collies. They are just so much fun, so alert and they learn so fast. I am a pitiful trainer but my dogs just train themselves so it doesn't really matter. They all know "sit" and I never taught them that. They know where I am going by the shoes I put on.

 

And I don't know if this is true of "other" bred dogs but my dogs love to be outside and active - even now when it is so cold.

 

I don't work my dogs but I love to watch these dogs work. Back when the Nationals were in St. Louis a bunch of the top obedience trainers from KC went to watch. They stood there with their mouths open. They had never seen anything like these dogs who were taking commands from hundreds of yard away and who were thinking on their own.

 

These are such wonderful animals.

[gcv-border]

Based on my personal experiences I'd say that sports bred are great if you don't want your dog to be part of your life (aka live outside/barn when not working). They are simply wired to be too wired and crazy for a normal home.

 

Sports bred are typically bred for extreme drive and speed instead of the overall dog.

 

Bethany, Rose, and Loki

To respectfully disagree: Based on my personal experience, my sports bred dog is exactly the prototype of what many people here on the Boards say that they value in a working bred dog - calm inside the house, almost a couch potato, but ready to go at a moment's notice. [And that is not to say that I am advocating for sports bred border collies.] He has a solid temperament and wants to please. In fact, he is reponsible for a couple of people deciding that maybe all agility border collies are not so bad after all. One of those people being my first agility instructor who tells everyone that Torque is the reason why she finally has a border collie to run in agility (rescue dog).

 

WRT the comments from several people that say they are seeing fewer 'crazy' border collies at agility trials: I have several theories including the appearance of more working bred dogs, but primarily I believe that handlers are paying more attention to training appropriate behavior outside the ring. They don't want to keep being embarrassed by their crazy dogs.

[Mark Billadeau]

Training and expectations of the dog may be a large part of the apparent differences in behavior between sports and livestock dogs. How many agility dogs are (allowed to be) loose and under verbal control outside the ring?

[GentleLake]

I have never met Ms. Janet DeMello. I do know that when we fought the AKC, she was one of the obedience competitors (no agility then) who signed our protest ad and I know that some years ago she competed in sheepdog trials though I don't know if she ever ran a dog in open.

 

That may have been true then, but it seems in the meantime she's drunk the Kool-Aid. Her website introduces her as an "AKC Breeder of Merit."

 

And when I met her back in the mid '80s (she was inquiring about breeding to my merle, Mirk), she was much more interested in colors and clear white markings (i.e. no ticking) than she was in his working ability.

[mum24dog]

Virtually all the ones I know. That's why our shows have such big exercise areas where possible.(in reply to Mark.)

[Laurelin]

Training and expectations of the dog may be a large part of the apparent differences in behavior between sports and livestock dogs. How many agility dogs are (allowed to be) loose and under verbal control outside the ring?

 

At trials they generally aren't off leash because of the rules but most sports dogs I know are decent to very good off leash. It is not uncommon to find people out in fields away from a trial playing fetch and most the BC people I know have dogs that are good hiking off leash.

 

For me personally, off leash is important to me because I hike. Though the terriermutt still can get a little excited by critters. I blame his genetics though. My one fault with the dog!

[Mark Billadeau]

I'm not talking about in the exercise areas away from the ring; I'm talking about loose right next to the ring (analogous to "under the handlers' tent"). It's easier to have self control running around away from the action as compared to self control sitting next to the handler with the action right in front of the dog.

 

 

 

I understand that leashes are required at events; no cultural expectation is set for self control with the action right in front of the dog.

[Root Beer]

I'm not talking about in the exercise areas away from the ring; I'm talking about loose right next to the ring (analogous to "under the handlers' tent"). It's easier to have self control running around away from the action as compared to self control sitting next to the handler with the action right in front of the dog.

 

 

 

I understand that leashes are required at events; no cultural expectation is set for self control with the action right in front of the dog.

 

While leashes are certainly required right outside the ring, it is still a HUGE benefit to have a dog who has excellent off leash control and manners in that area. When the leash is merely a "decoration", life is nicer for both dog and handler. A dog who has issues in close proximity to other dogs isn't helped much by a leash in that instance.

 

I've been on both sides of that fence, and I will take the dog who would be just as much at ease, and in control of his or herself, without the leash right outside the ring any day of the week!

[gcv-border]

I'm not talking about in the exercise areas away from the ring; I'm talking about loose right next to the ring; analogous to "under the handlers' tent". It's easier to have self control away from the action as compared to self control with the action right in front of the dog.

 

 

 

I understand that leashes are required at events.

It is not really fair to compare "next to the ring" [agility trials] with "next to the trial field" [sheepdog trials]. I have been to both venues many times -- probably > 30 sheepdog trials (including two Nationals) as spectator only and >70-75 agility trials as both handler (primarily) and spectator.

 

At a well-attended sheepdog trial, I wouldn't usually see more than 10-12 dogs within close proximity to the trial field/under the handlers' tent. At an agility trial with 2 rings - side by side - it is not uncommon to see 30-40 dogs being walked around (usually waiting their turn) within 20-30 feet of the ring. In addition, there is a dog running the agility course within 30-80 feet.

 

It is much more chaotic at an agility trial. When I go to a sheepdog trial, I feel so much more relaxed.. I am sure a dog will respond to the 2 different environments differently too.

[Mark Billadeau]

So clearly I am wrong and most of the difference in behavior between agility and livestock dogs is genetic.

[GentleLake]

It is not really fair to compare "next to the ring" [agility trials] with "next to the trial field" [sheepdog trials]. . . . At a well-attended sheepdog trial, I wouldn't usually see more than 10-12 dogs within close proximity to the trial field/under the handlers' tent. At an agility trial with 2 rings - side by side - it is not uncommon to see 30-40 dogs being walked around (usually waiting their turn) within 20-30 feet of the ring. In addition, there is a dog running the agility course within 30-80 feet.

 

It's not just about the number of dogs in attendance, but also the nature of the distraction. Considering that the dogs at a sheepdog trial can often see sheep being working on the field, which to them is a huge draw, I think it's a very fair comparison.

 

JMO, of course.

[CptJack]

I understand that leashes are required at events; no cultural expectation is set for self control with the action right in front of the dog.

 

The dogs have to be able to be off leash and under control to do the group training required to get to agility, but right in front of the ring? No. For one things, the dogs IN the ring are running hot. For another thing, dog aggressive and dog reactive dogs are able to, and DO, participate.

 

And, as others gvc border said, the environment's just different. It's not a dozen dogs and a big field. It's more like 3-4 dozen in a building, or smaller outdoor area. I've been to some trials with fewer dogs (20?) and bigger areas and people DO have their dogs off leash there and it's fine.

 

Cram them all into an indoor arena and no, I want the extra control of a leash regardless. In part so I can yank my smaller dog up by her leash if some hyped up da dog comes tearing around the corner. (Yes, any aggression toward handler, dog or judge will get you dismissed but I'd just as not risk my 11lb dog vs. a 90lb GSD with dog reactivity issues, thanks).

 

That said, I think the nature of the game itself is the biggest difference. A lot of people need or want to amp their dogs up before and during an agility run. It's all over in less than a minute. There are some people who calm the higher dogs down, but amped up, thirty seconds of play and 'off' is hard for a LOT of dogs. Also while thoughtfulness is important in agility, it's very much a game where you're pushing for speed in the dog. That conveys TO the dog.

[mum24dog]

I know plenty that could be if the rules allowed, and a good number of people who ignore the rule.

 

At training there are no barriers between dogs waiting and dogs working and yet dogs do wait off lead with the action going on under their nose. Not all, but there is no correlation between on or off lead and working bred or not, just training. Some handlers bother, some don't.

[Mark Billadeau]

Having done both agility and sheepdog trials I see no difference in the draw for a dog between having 3-5 sheep run by a few feet from a dog vs have a couple of dogs running an agility course.

 

It comes down to what is the handler's expectation of the dog's behavior in that situation and their efforts in training for that behavior under those conditions. Without ever setting the expectation and training for the desired behavior a breeder will never know if and how easily a possible breeding dog can achieve the desired behavior. This is true for working livestock or calmness under stressful situations (self control or an off-switch).

[mum24dog]

You're lucky to have more than 3 metres around the rings at an indoor arena here, and in that space people stand watching, pass by, socialise and queue to run. Spectators are right next to the ring with their dogs.

 

Six rings at the last indoor show I went to, each with around 350 runs. A rough estimate probably 6-700 dogs in and out of the building during the day.

 

Not something the average sheepdog has to contend with and yet there are very rarely any skirmishes.

 

Double those numbers for a popular outdoor summer show, although there is usually more room, although not a lot more at some shows.

 

And it's not uncommon to have sheep in surrounding fields. It's no big deal for most of those dogs, whether working bred or not.

[Shetlander]

Mark, are/were you seeing dogs who would otherwise be charging into the agility ring or making a nuisance of themselves? I have been out of agility for some years, but other than a few aggressive dogs (of various breeds) who needed some room, I remember the leashed dogs focusing on their handlers while in line to run or pretty much chilling if their handler was set up by the ring.

[Mark Billadeau]

I saw dogs at the end of leashes being held short by handlers (dogs stimulated by the running dog in the ring or anxious for their turn) or were spinning inside crates. Not all of the dogs, just a large enough portion to make an impression.

 

I also do not intend to give the impression that all those who attend herding trials have all their dogs under enough control to have them off leash under the handlers' tent; but the culture seems to be to have them under that level of control (perhaps a consequence of having the verbal control at 400+ yards while the dog is feet away from moving livestock).

 

Sheep grazing in a neighboring field is not the same draw as sheep being worked; it would be like comparing the dog running in the ring to a dog resting next to their handler outside the ring. BTW working bred does not mean they are turned onto livestock at birth; without exposure they may not show much interest.

[gcv-border]

It's not just about the number of dogs in attendance, but also the nature of the distraction. Considering that the dogs at a sheepdog trial can often see sheep being working on the field, which to them is a huge draw, I think it's a very fair comparison.

 

JMO, of course.

I have to respectfully disagree here. As Cpt Jack more fully explained, the action on the agility course is much more frantic and louder and closer than a sheepdog trial.

 

And in response to Mark's post:

"So clearly I am wrong and most of the difference in behavior between agility and livestock dogs is genetic. :)"

 

Of course some part is genetic and part is training and part is handler expectation and part is threshold distance, etc, etc.

 

I have had Kiefer at both agility trials and at a sheepdog clinic and at a herding trial (spectator). Kiefer is working bred.

 

At one agility trial, he was very excited when he could see and hear the dogs running the course. Lots of whining and sharp barking even when 50, then 80, then 100 feet away from the rings. (I had to keep moving farther away until I could get him under threshold.) I brought him out of his crate (he could not see the rings from his crate, which was covered) several times to work on calm behavior with a clicker and treats. At the same venue, a month later, I was able to get within 40-50 feet of the rings with much less whining & barking and more focus on me. (Treats were involved too.)

 

At both the clinic and the herding trial, he was .... different. He saw the sheep - sometimes far away and sometimes close. He just hunkered down and calmly watched them without the stressy behavior I saw in him at an agility trial. [And he IS interested in sheep as his behavior at the clinic demonstrated.] No treats were involved. Maybe that is his genetics coming into play.

[mum24dog]

My friend's GSD and BT had never been turned on to sheep but it didn't stop them killing some. And lack of exposure didn't stop my little mongrel chasing some when they startled her.

 

If a dog has a chase instinct it doesn't need exposure to prey to exercise it.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of agility dogs that would chase livestock if they weren't under control.

 

I didn't say that sheep in the fields are always calmly grazing, they aren't.

[CptJack]

I have seen some excited dogs at the ends of their leashes at agility trials. Some of those dogs were puppies/very young adults, some were not competing at all, some were at the start of ANY kind of training (regardless of age) and some of those were just excitable dogs with handlers who didn't mind having their dogs at the end of their leashes at the moment but would knock it off at a look or a word, but were being allowed to be a bit silly/goofy/play with a known to be friendly and receptive dog and other handler. The occasional dog was just out of control, but honestly that's fairly rare.

 

Overall, I see very little truly bad behavior at agility. Yes, leashes are required, because (again) it's a rule of most venues and the fact of the matter is dog aggressive dogs ARE allowed to compete and having dozens of hundreds of unknown dogs, owned by unknown people, mingling off leash in a very confined area is frankly just kind of stupid.

I also see a lot of dogs hanging out in the set up areas, in crates or lose, doing other training, off away from the trial itself doing bits of training, playing games (on or off leash) and being pretty chill. Frankly, I saw the same thing at the flyball tournament I attended. Even dogs running high, straining to go, barking their heads off, acting like loons inside the venue were, outside, completely normal.

 

So, yeah. Some of it's expectation, cultural, and just what's encouraged in the dog. Because, well, frankly I find the idea of a quiet, serious, agility trial the antithesis of a good time for me or my dog, a little depressing, a lot boring, and way too serious for what it is. I imagine I'm not alone in that.

And some of the reason for that is 'well behaved' doesn't look the same to everyone. For me, the presence of a leash, a dog at the end of it, or barking, does not necessarily signify ANYTHING about the dog's level of training or the handler's ability until or unless I witness the owner trying and FAILING to bring the dog under control or handle that failure appropriately.

Different strokes.

 

ETA:
And again, sheep dog trials happen more slowly, over longer periods of time, and at greater distance than an agility trial. That's just apples and oranges. The comparison flat out doesn't work. More like 'Asking a dog to ignore a rabbit bolting under its nose. Yes, you can get there and many people DO both with prey and agility, but that doesn't mean it's as easy to ignore as a rabbit hopping slowly or behaving calmly and at some distance - There is a reason even my terrier will ignore, easily, my pet rabbit as opposed to one fleeing wildly away from him.

[Laurelin]

I remember an agility trial I was at last fall where a local sport border collie breeder had a couple of her dogs off leash in down stays right next to the rings. I remember thinking it was impressive but also seemed a bit reckless. But they were perfectly calm and stayed put.

 

Most agility dogs I see are pretty well behaved overall. Can they all sit and stay right next to a ring? No but most people haven't trained it at all because it's never required.

[GentleLake]

I am seeing more "Border Jack's" emerging around the flyball people. . .yikes what a handful THAT combination must be.

 

I fostered a Border Jack, oh, about 12, 13 years ago. That dog was insane! I couldn't wait till she was adopted.

 

She was fast; I'll give her that.

[Laurelin]

I should probably not mention that I have a serious thing for herder x terrier mixes, right? Hank is my discount $60 shelter version. Borderjack.... Cattlerat. Same thing, right? I could seriously only have these kinds of mixes and be very happy. My favorite dog ever was a border collie x cattle dog x jack Russell mix. I cannot take Hank places without being asked (usually very disdainfully) if he's a sport mix.

[Mark Billadeau]

Clearly I know nothing about dog behavior and responses to stimuli.

I'll leave the topic of which is better to train (working or sport bred) to you experts.