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Weave training - Troubleshooting the 2x2 method


KJT
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Hi everyone, after some opinions on a problem I encountered today, having just started training my BC using 2x2's.

 

To start with a bit of background, Rylin is 15months, a smaller BC, an absolute pocket rocket with an awesome personality. He has been so easy to train and has a very solid foundation (tricks, hind end awareness activities, paw pods, balance disks, wobble boards etc etc). He started his early jump work training 2 months ago (once the vet had given him the ok in terms of finishing growing). I have been using some agility foundation ideas from Silvia Trkman, others from Susan Garrett and jump foundations using the Susan Salo gridwork system.

 

I started weave training on Tuesday, following SG's 2x2 method. I haven't got her DVD, but am going off the steps, pics and diagrams in her Shaping Success book, as well as youtube clips. The first 2 poles were no prob. He easily understood the concept, always initiating the move through the poles himself, without any lure from me. We worked the "arc", again no issues. This was over 2 days, having training sessions of 10mins max once a day, with lots of play (ball and tug) in between. Last night and today I introduced the next 2 sets of poles, as in 2 "entries", just driving through straight, and rewarded with his ball thrown after the second set of poles. However he is not consistent in taking the second set, often running out the side. So my question is...do I go back a step I.e 2 poles, or backchain from the second set. Also how often should I be training the weaves (I.e daily, every second day etc?). I'm thinking I will leave it a day or 2 before trying again, as often he "gets it" after a short break.

 

He is not my first agility dog and I am a trainer at our local club, but I have never used the 2x2 method before (previously used channels and V poles with my other dogs).

 

Any suggestions much appreciated :)

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It's been awhile since I watched the DVD, but I believe what Garrett suggested was to start off by tossing the toy in between the two poles, so he goes through the first set, you throw toy in between and tug there, get the dog to release, go through the second set, toss toy, tug.

 

After doing that a bit, drop the toy in the middle and see if he will anticipate and take both.

 

I think . . .

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Yes, what Root Beer said is right, except, after you've done it a few times in between, I think you wait to throw the toy until the dog goes through both sets. I would encourage you to get the DVD, though. You do not get the full understanding just from you tube videos.

 

SG also encourages video taping sessions and paying attention to your reward line. She generally encourages working through failures, rather than going backwards, but that is if you did not "lump" and skip steps. how far apart do you have the two sets of poles right now? I would have to go back and look at my video, but I think there is a fair amount of space between the sets. I will go back and look today and let you know.

 

I don't think you want to take 1-2 days off though. You might want to go back later today and do it.

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I'm undecided how to teach my youngster how to weave when the time comes so earlier today I tried him on 2 poles and made a discovery. When I clicker train it is usually with food. Risk does see the toy as a reward but not in connection with a clicker; as said in that link, if I click he looks back at me. Clearly I haven't varied my clicker rewards enough. Never mind though, the toy alone works fine in the context of the sort of training we are doing.

 

I am probably going to try a modified 2 x 2 method that friends have used with great success; in reality it's 2 + 1 + 1 etc. Start with 2 poles as normal then add an offset pole 3 to the left gradually moving it in until it is in line with the original 2. Repeat on the right etc.

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I am taking the weaves class through the Fenzi Academy and we are doing the 2 X 2's, but it is different from the Susan Garrett method. I love what we are doing, and we are using food, which I also prefer for a naturally drivey dog.

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I prefer a toy for agility, much more flexible than food. But the dog has to see the toy as sufficiently valuable of course. Some do, some don't, and for those that don't food is most likely to work.

 

Clicker + food for precision, toy for drive and speed. I like the freedom not to have to think about how many treats he is getting in training.

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After I messed up Dean's weaves royally with 2 X 2's with a toy, I will never use a toy to train 2 X 2's again. When we have weaving through straight poles, I'll transition to the toy, but I don't want to risk training the sequence: enter correctly and FLY forward! It took a long time to retrain Dean to control his body in the weaves after that, and he always retained the tendency to hit the entry and fly forward, skipping 2 - 3 poles before he started to weave again. Not saying everyone who trains 2 X 2's with toys ends up with that, but after the experience, I am really gun-shy about that.

 

So, food for Bandit until he's actually weaving. Then we can incorporate the toy to build speed and drive in the weaves.

 

What I like about the 2 X 2 method that we are doing this time is that he is learning to interact with the objects on which we are training (we aren't using a weave 2 X 2) with confidence, commitment, and completion. When we transition to the actual weave 2 X 2's and he starts to weave in sequence, I think he's going to do very well.

 

Of course, not quite time for that yet.

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We trained Kye on channel weaves but concentrated too much on speed and not enough on entries so he had trouble initially controlling his entry speed but it wasn't anything to do with the nature of the reward, just a failure in training. Easily fixed though with a lie down cue to get him to check on entry.

 

The method of choice should depend on the size and build of the dog. Channel weaves were absolutely the right thing for Kye who is a big dog and not particularly flexible, also tends not to drive through with his back legs. He's fast but doesn't have it in him to have the Wow factor in the weaves.

 

Risk on the other hand is much smaller, shorter backed and bendy and I don't think it's going to matter much how I train him as long as we don't neglect the entries again.

 

I have the opposite experience to you, having seen too many people start slowly and under control and then be unable to speed the dog up sufficiently. It doesn't always follow. I much prefer to start with craziness and try and get a handle on it.

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Thanks for all your suggestions. After watching the videos of him, I decided to change the reward to a tug toy, as with the ball, it seemed to hype him up too much and lose his ability to think. Well today we had a 90% success rate, (only missing 1/10). So much happier and progress made :)

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I used a toy with 2x2s as well, Rievaulx has great weaves that have been sharpened this summer by using "V" weaves, to be honest I did not think a big dog could get faster but by using the weaves in just a slight V it really gave him the confidence to drive through even faster. Our weakness is entrances, mostly that he does not want to collect, just wants to get them over with, they are his least favorite obstacle and I am sure it is because it slows the game down, I tried to build plenty of value in them, it is is just his choice, so I am sure we will continue to debate the merits of weaving for the rest of his competitive life!!

Locally I have seen dogs that spent so much time focusing on getting the entrances right with channels and not closing them quickly enough that the dogs learned whole other skill that was not weaving and we have had to retrain them to learn to bend.

Fundamentally I like the concept of 2x2 because the dog gets to learn how its body works through the weaves, not just charging through.

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I still prefer the channels for training weaves. It keeps the drive going, and I have had no trouble with my dog learning to 'bend'. Like mum24dog, I prefer a bit of craziness in the beginning and then getting a handle on it.

 

The best technique I used for teaching Torque to collect before entering the weaves was to train the weaves on a hill. Obviously, going downhill to enter the weaves generates a lot of speed. [i live on a hill so it was easy to set up.] I started with slightly open channels, but started closing them pretty fast once he seemed to understand the drill. I also would send him uphill through the weaves to build up his rear leg muscles. I only used a set of 6 for this training.

 

Since I may be moving to a flatter property, I have heard that sending through a tunnel to the weaves works similarly. I may have to use that technique in the future.

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I have been teaching some of our club dogs on channels up to the point where they have a distinct wiggle. What is practical in a class situation with first timers is not necessarily what I would do with my own and, being mindful of the difficulty of closing them up completely that can be experienced last week I tried them on straight weaves. A little confusion at first but you could see the light bulb come on when they felt a little wiggle and they could make the connection. I'm confident that we will make great progress now,

 

As for method of choice, in addition to choosing one that suits the dog, you also have to choose one that suits the handler. Some get it, some don't and never will so you have to find something that will work for them both.

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Alligande- That's interested about the v-weaves helping with Rievaulx's speed, I wonder if he was having foot work issues through the poles and if the v-weaves helped to clean up that, thus improving his speed and drive.

 

I used 2x2 with Renoir and he has horrible footwork through the weave poles, he gets crossing his feet the wrong way which brings him to a crawl through the poles. My trainer has said that he's not the first dogs she's seen this issue with on 2x2's. We've retrained using channel and some V with some success but will never have the speed of weaves he should considering the speed of rest of his skills.

 

I'm with Mum & Jovi, I would much rather work on reining in the craziness than trying to speed up or motivate the thoughtful or slow, sometimes you can't get the speed back up to where you had it once you've taken it away.

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Interesting about the footwork with 2 x 2. I like channels for footwork.

 

Many years ago we had V weaves in the club but we lost the spanner and never used them. I haven't really liked the action I've seen from dogs training on them but I haven't seen many. I'm sure some dogs are suited to them.

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He actually looked pretty good going through them before, I was not planning on improving them but a number of people in the club were working with them at a slight V and so rather than reset them I put Rievaulx through and there just seemed to be an improvement, it was like a light bulb went off and he could get to the end even quicker and as far he he is concerned getting to the next obstacle is important, for him it is anything but weaves.

Add me to the group that believes in channeling speed and teaching the dog to control its body rather than trying to add speed later. I use food as a reward when I am teaching a new accurate skill and want to keep his head in the game, for example when we first worked right turns, or jumping into heel. Now I never use food in agility, I only use food for tricks.

I use a toy in three ways, thrown to encourage forward drive, dead toy for independent forward motion such as with Susan Salos jump grids and a held toy when we are sequencing and I want him to finish with me in a particular location.

With my beginer dogs we use what ever motivates the dog, but I want everyone to play with their dog to build that team spirit idea...

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I also believe in channelling speed rather than starting with slow and steady....having done slow and steady with my first dog, I know very well the frustration of then struggling to get speed later on! Alligande, I use food and toys the exact same ways as you and it certainly seems to work - thankfully Rylin has food and a toy (ball and tug) drive, which certainly helps!

 

Just out of interest, has anyone taught weaves by combining methods i.e channel (full 12) and 2x2? I would assume it would confuse the dog, but just wondering if anyone has tried it had any success vs confusion vs complete failure! When I take our beginner classes at club, I initially explain/show them channel, V and 2x2 and encourage them to use whichever one works for them and their dog (and their space and equipment at home). I try to discourage treat luring though each weave but I suspect that is what some do at home. Each to their own I guess, but it certainly doesn't encourage independent weaving!

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Another one here who uses food and toys the same way. Never be afraid of speed and enthusiasm.

 

One of our members had a dog that really wasn't getting the weave at all. She was trying 2 x 2 for entries at home but doing it slowly. I persuaded her to use the channel as well and it worked, her dog now has fast weaves and a good action.

 

I would think that keeping the two separate in the dog's mind initially and being very careful about how far you go with each and when you combine the two is the key to success.

 

If I were using both methods I would use 2 x 2 to teach entries rather than the whole thing. Others may differ, of course.

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Another one here who uses food and toys the same way. Never be afraid of speed and enthusiasm.

 

I wouldn't say that I'm afraid of speed and enthusiasm.

 

2 X 2's are a pattern training process. The dog learns one pattern, and then another, and then another, and then another, until the pattern is a set of 12 weaves.

 

The issue that I came across with training 2 X 2's with a toy is that my dog got stuck on the earliest pattern - it was so highly reinforcing - that he had a very difficult time moving on to the next, etc.

 

I would not hesitate to use a toy with channels or wires or weave-o-matics because the dog is learning at least a pattern of 6 all at the same time.

 

In a way the earliest stages of 2 X 2 training are not weave poles. It is a learning structure that will transfer to the weaves once the dog gets to that stage. I want my dog in his thinking brain at that early stage.

 

I expect - and I'll report back when we get there - that transferring to a toy when we are doing a set of six - will not be an issue at all and we will get the speed and enthusiasm.

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Just out of interest, has anyone taught weaves by combining methods i.e channel (full 12) and 2x2? I would assume it would confuse the dog, but just wondering if anyone has tried it had any success vs confusion vs complete failure!

Yes, with my youngest dog this is exactly what we've done. We started with channels, added wires as the channels got narrow. Once the channels were closed and the wires off for the most part, we brought in 2x2 to help add the importance of the entry. Just teaching the 2x2 through the first few phases where you put the second set in and they have to work through always taking the first set. I'm super happy with were his weaves are at, but I'd be even happier if I hadn't taken most the winter off ;)

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I'm doing some 2x2 and channels work with Hank. I will get back to you on how well that works. The 2x2s were first mostly to work entries. then I essentially moved the 2x2s into a channel once he was getting the idea of finding the entry. So far he is getting it very fast but the channel is still open.

 

I had to lure my past dog's weaves as she just would not understand the concept. I think it was confusion from switching training schools several times when she was younger. I tried shaping, channels, guides, 2x2s and nothing clicked at all. My trainer could not figure her out either. She was elderly anyways by the time we were trialing and I was faster than her so my goals were pretty low. She can only weave one side and only with my help. But it worked for us. With Hank I want fast, independent weaves.

 

EDIT: I am using a toy reward for Hank's weaves.

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