Tess's Girl Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 This may be more of a philosophical question but how does he know what's "right" without knowing something is "wrong"? More specifically you say that you have both the "up" and the "off" cue, and both are just choices that are cued by you. To go back to the counter surfing example, in the absence of you to give the "off" cue how does he know that "up" on the counter is wrong? How does he make the right choice, if nothing is wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 This may be more of a philosophical question but how does he know what's "right" without knowing something is "wrong"? More specifically you say that you have both the "up" and the "off" cue, and both are just choices that are cued by you. To go back to the counter surfing example, in the absence of you to give the "off" cue how does he know that "up" on the counter is wrong? How does he make the right choice, if nothing is wrong? Wrong isn't even in the picture. He can make the right choice because I have communicated to him - through a strong reinforcement history and clear and consistent criteria - what that right choice is. If I wanted to, I could cue him to put his paws on the counter and he would do it. It's just behavior. It's not "wrong". While I don't want him counter surfing for his own safety (honestly, if not for safety I wouldn't care in the least if the dogs wanted to put their paws up on the counters), I don't even think in terms of it being "wrong" for them to do so. It is simply the rule structure in our home that dogs keep four on the floor in the kitchen. He doesn't go into the kitchen and counter surf because he has learned that the correct behavior in the kitchen is to keep four on the floor. It really is as simple as that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 "The rule structure in our home [is] that dogs keep four on the floor in the kitchen" = Putting paws up on the counter is wrong. "The correct behavior in the kitchen is to keep four on the floor" = Putting paws up on the counter is wrong. I don't think you can escape that equivalence by saying that you don't conceptualize it that way, that you don't think of anything as "wrong," that you refuse to let "wrong" into the picture. In actual fact you are trying to train your dogs not to put their paws up on the counter, but at the same time you are trying to obscure that that is your aim (or to conceal it from the dog?). If one of them had an injured paw and was limping, you would be quite happy with "three on the floor" because you don't care how many paws are on the floor -- your purpose is simply to train the dogs not to put their paws up on the counter. And they will only do that when you are not there if they internalize the idea that putting their paws up on the counter is wrong. By "wrong," I don't mean sinful, I don't mean immoral, I don't mean punishable. I just mean that the dog knows it's something he is not to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Not trying to conceal anything. Four on the floor is not equivalent to "not on the counter". Four on the floor is four on the floor whether it is near a counter, after putting paws up on my arm for a dance move, to ask a dog to move off of the bed so I can put a sheet on it, or whatnot. My dogs are welcome to put their paws on the counter if I give them permission. I can't think of a reason why I would do that, but I would never rule it out. I get that you are seeing some conveyance of "wrong". I disagree. I think on this we are simply going to continue to disagree. I can tell you this. If my dog puts his paws on the counter, there are no mousetraps that go off, there is no "AHHHT!", there are no leash pops. There is just an "off" cue, same as I would give after I had actually cued the dog up. Over time they learn that "off" is the default. How you interpret that is your personal interpretation. But I will continue to maintain that I do not employ corrections in the process, and that there is no conveyance of "wrong" at any point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 If you have a pattern established of acceptable behaviors then I think a dog should be able to figure out something else to do when told NOT to do something. In the beginning I focused on showing Kolt what was acceptable and rewarding what I wanted so that he'd learn. Now he's 11 m/o and I'm pretty equal on telling him what I want or just giving a verbal correction. For instance (since hasn't yet occured to him to counter surf) I can tell him to "get your nose out of her butt" and he easily and quickly figures out something else to do besides stick his nose in Kenzi's rear. If I had just brought him into the house, I'd be redirecting him to do something else (down by me, chew on a bone, etc). But after months of living here, he has a decent grasp on the rules of the house so I just let him figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Actually, the kitchen counter is the perfect height for stretching a medium-sized dog's hip flexors. Rather than pulling the dog's rear leg backwards while it is in the 4-on-the-floor to become 3-on-the floor position, ask the dog to place its front feet on the counter so that the dog is in a standing position. The rehab vet who told me about this said that most of her clients are appauled. My dogs love having their hip flexors stretched My dogs are welcome to put their paws on the counter if I give them permission. I can't think of a reason why I would do that, but I would never rule it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogrsqr Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I personally don't think of giving the dog information that it is doing something that is not acceptable is necessarily a correction. Using a word or phrase like wrong or oh-oh is just giving them information to use in making future choices. Letting the dog know that their choice is incorrect is just as useful as letting them know their choice is correct. When I went to an Ian Dunbar seminar a few years ago, he said he thought that people had taken positive training to an extreme and had forgotten that dogs need information about what they're doing that's unacceptable as much as they need information about what they're doing that's acceptable. He was not advocating being harsh; just letting them know thru simple unemotional words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Actually, the kitchen counter is the perfect height for stretching a medium-sized dog's hip flexors. Rather than pulling the dog's rear leg backwards while it is in the 4-on-the-floor to become 3-on-the floor position, ask the dog to place its front feet on the counter so that the dog is in a standing position. The rehab vet who told me about this said that most of her clients are appauled. My dogs love having their hip flexors stretched I have to do this with Dean. He will enjoy it. Maybe I'll take a video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Dear Doggers, Those claiming they never correct their Border Collie make two assumptions: first, that their dog learns only during "training" sessions and second that Border Collies are unable to read or respond to their owner's emotions. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Dear Doggers, Those claiming they never correct their Border Collie make two assumptions: first, that their dog learns only during "training" sessions and second that Border Collies are unable to read or respond to their owner's emotions. Donald McCaig So true. Every interaction that we have with them is "training" them, because they are constantly learning from us and our reactions to things, in much the same way that we learn from other people in our relationships with them. In any relationship, information needs to be exchanged about what is acceptable and what is not. I like Ian Dunbar's take on it, as mentioned by dogsqr, above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckeyemanohio Posted February 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 I like that: He was not advocating being harsh; just letting them know thru simple unemotional words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 19, 2015 Report Share Posted February 19, 2015 Those claiming they never correct their Border Collie make two assumptions: first, that their dog learns only during "training" sessions and second that Border Collies are unable to read or respond to their owner's emotions. I don't make either of those assumptions myself, and I can't think, off the top of my head, of a single successful +R trainer who does. And yet, I do define my training choices by my actual training choices. Of course life happens, and learning happens outside of training sessions. But I can only control what I control. And I choose to utilize +R based techniques where others might choose to use some form of correction. Yes, all dogs encounter aversives in the world, and they learn from their experiences with those aversives in circumstances that are beyond anyone's control. For me, though, that has never been a selling point toward making a deliberate choice to incorporate some form of correction into training. I know it is for some, but it just doesn't compute in my mind. It still makes more innate sense to me to teach the dog what is desired where others think in terms of "don't", regardless of what happens in circumstances that are beyond the scope of my training choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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