Raw feeding

[mum24dog]

Bodies have evolved to function perfectly well on an adequate diet. There is no need for optimum / perfect nutrition, whatever that may be. Perfection is a risky thing to strive for since it reduces the flexibility that is a valuable survival tool.

 

Giant Pandas I'm sure are perfectly adapted to live on bamboo shoots and yet they are on the verge of extinction. Humans and dogs do pretty well on virtually anything and are extremely successful as species.

 

I'm not against feeding raw, just don't see it as the panacea and miracle diet that some do.

[Liz P]

Actually, for peak performance some carbs are needed. See the thousands of studies on canine athletes. Granted, dogs are much more efficient than humans at converting fat to carbs, but remove all carbs from the diet and they don't do as well (reduced endurance, weight loss, reduction in mental performance). Surviving is not the same as thriving. Dogs are not obligate carnivores like cats.

 

NO mammal can break down cellulose. It's symbiotic bacteria that do the work in the guts of herbivores. That doesn't stop omnivores and even carnivores from eating and utilizing calories, vitamins and minerals found in plants. Mechanical breakdown (chewing, blending) and cooking make them accessible.

 

No one ever said to make plants the bulk of a dog's diet.

[waffles]

Bodies have evolved to function perfectly well on an adequate diet. There is no need for optimum / perfect nutrition, whatever that may be. Perfection is a risky thing to strive for since it reduces the flexibility that is a valuable survival tool.

 

Giant Pandas I'm sure are perfectly adapted to live on bamboo shoots and yet they are on the verge of extinction. Humans and dogs do pretty well on virtually anything and are extremely successful as species.

 

I'm not against feeding raw, just don't see it as the panacea and miracle diet that some do.

I agree, just like kibble isn't a miracle diet because the companies have done studies or put certain feel good labels on their food. People seem to get caught on terms like balanced and complete. I think dogs do well on many types of diets and I don't think kibble, raw, homemade cooked or whatever is the best or the only type of food to feed. People eat all kinds of food each day - fresh, cooked, food from all kinds of food groups and in general, we do okay on it. So for dogs, I can't see why they also can't eat foods from many sources and do just fine. What I think should be important when feeding our pets and ourselves is to not over feed (leading to overweight pets), to provide exercise and variety in food. I kind of cringe when I hear someone say their pet ate the exact same brand of food for every day of their entire life. That is a lot of trust to put in one company as well. I don't think anyone would feed their kids only entire meals or food produced by Kellogg or Gerber for years and years.

 

It seems like these discussions always come down to advising to feed what your dog does best on. I eat what makes me feel good and I feed raw to my dog (and some to my cats, a vet even suggested raw for my cat with kidney stones) because I like the results I see from it. I also feed leftover rice, plain oatmeal, veggie peels, leftover veggies, I am not super strict on raw only. I sometimes use kibble as training treats because a 4lb bag of decent kibble is cheaper than 1lb bag of treats. If in the future, I felt an animal did better on a processed food prepared by someone else, then I would feed that.

[Liz P]

Exactly. Most dogs do great on ok food. Those that are extreme athletes, sick, have allergies and other special needs will need a more carefully controlled diet.

 

My dogs also get kitchen scraps. That includes fruit, veges, grains, potatoes, meat, fat, fish and anything else that was leftover from plates or cooking that is safe for them to consume. Warning to anyone who may come to visit; my plates often get pre washed by the dogs before they go into the sink.

[GentleLake]

I'm not trying to convince anyone to feed their dogs or cats raw, even though it's what I believe is best for them and my dogs have done amazingly well on it.

 

But I do get frustrated seeing the same arguments against it and in support of feeding things that are aren't species appropriate. The findings that dogs have evolved some genetic mutations that allows them to make use of carbohydrates isn't proof that they're no longer carnivores and as a whole benefit from a meat based diet. That's a leap that isn't borne out by considering that their dentition and digestive systems haven't changed.

 

I'm not a rabid (pun intended) raw feeder either. My dogs also enjoy some fruits and vegetables that I'm eating or have left over. I use kibble for training treats and have been known to feed a kibble meal now and again when I'm not feeling well and up to preparing their raw meals. But I do believe it's better to feed them the way nature intended as evidenced by their physiology, though I'm not out to convince everyone that they have to feed their dogs that way.

 

As far as studies on dogs' use of carbs, I have to wonder who sponsors them. The vast majority of feeding trials studies on canine nutrition are conducted and/or funded by the people who have the most to benefit from proving the products they manufacture are he best. There are no studies and feeding trials on raw fed dogs because the financial backing isn't there, although I understand there are fundraising efforts underway to conduct a large scale study. I'll happily donate to such a study when I find out who's working towards it.

 

I think I'm going to stay out of raw feeding discussions here in the future. They always seem to run the same course.

[GentleLake]

Warning to anyone who may come to visit; my plates often get pre washed by the dogs before they go into the sink.

 

Ha! My plates always get a lick cycle before going into the sink or dishwasher.

[Shetlander]

After a rough first 2 1/2 years of GI woes, Quinn has done quite well (GI wise, he has bum luck with health in general) on a home cooked diet that includes a lot of grains, such as oats and barley. I believe in feeding what a dog does well on. I hope never to feed raw, not because I think it is bad for dogs but I personally find it unappealing. If for some reason, I had a dog who only did well on raw, I would find a way to deal. One thing I have learned is never say never when it comes to my dogs. It certainly wasn't my goal nor is it a pleasure to be constantly foraging and cooking for Quinn.

[Liz P]

But what I am saying is that dogs are NOT obligate carnivores. There is a difference between obligate and non obligate carnivores (it's not as black or white as you are making it out to be). You seem to be trying to ignore evolution and saying that you are going to treat your dogs like wolves because 10s of thousands of years ago they descended from wolves. I've seen the same argument from some people, that we should eat like chimps because we used to eat the same foods and it's healthier for us. We should not ignore evolution.

 

There are an overwhelming number of studies run by people (often veterinarians) who genuinely want to know how to improve the performance of canine athletes. Some do work in conjunction with pet food companies to develop better foods (generally quite low in carbs, high in fat). They have very high CIs. I am not referring to studies run by pet food companies with low CIs.

 

I am not anti raw either, but I can't tell you how many times I hear about dogs eating a carb free diet who start to have problems (weight loss, lack of endurance and other symptoms). When even just a small amount of carbs are added back to their diet, they suddenly do a lot better.

[Mark Billadeau]

Not only are dogs not obligate carnivores, but some scientific publications classify dogs as omnivores. One example is listed below.

 

 

The review will focus on the broad base of knowledge available on rabbits (herbivores), dogs (omnivores), and cats (obligate carnivores).

 

Source:

Assessment of Protein and Amino Acid Requirements in Adult Mammals, with Specific Focus on cats, Dogs, and Rabbits

Mathematical Modelling in Animal Nutrition (2008): 295

AK Shoveller and JL Atkinson

Centre for Nutrition Modeling, Department of Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph

[Mark Billadeau]

Do you think dogs and Jackals have the similar dentation?

[kingfisher7151]

I'm curious, we feed (mostly) raw and LOVE the results (especially the teeth!!), but I'm wondering what types of carbohydrates some people are adding to the meals. Of the 5 dogs between my mom and I, the 2 little ones get mostly kibble with a little raw, Trooper and our poodle with long time GI issues are mostly raw with a little kibble, and Keeper is straight raw. Keeper is suuuuper prone to diarrhea whenever he's on kibble. It's just on and off and he always vomits if I introduce even the tiniest amount of new kibble. His gut is MUCH better on raw. And the poodle used to have nuclear farts, and now they're just normal farts!

 

But, Keeper has to eat a LOT to keep weight on, and even then it's tough. I've been thinking of trying to introduce something to keep his weight on, and I think it's probably going to have to come in the form of carbs.

[etlai]

Rather than statements like 'everything in moderation' or 'some' carbs, actual values of gram/day AND ratio of total diet would provide substantial information.

 

And, as I asked earlier in this thread: studies over a lifetime, even generations, would be the only 'conclusive' studies I'd accept were diets are concerned. For humans, carbs should be consumed nowhere near the amount they are today (Otto Warburg, 1930s, Alfred Pennington 1950s) and yet we continue to do so, at cost to our own health (cancer, diabetes, obesity). We can't even get our own diets right, how can we expect to do so with our pets?

 

Given how many dogs succumb prematurely to cancer leads me to conclude that we don't have their diets correctly assessed. Hence, studies that show increases over a span of a couple years aren't enough. I can get momentary gains in the gym but taking sugar+caffeine (preworkout), but it kills me long-term. Are carbs the corollary with dogs on the trial field?

[Shetlander]

Given how many dogs succumb prematurely to cancer leads me to conclude that we don't have their diets correctly assessed. Hence, studies that show increases over a span of a couple years aren't enough. I can get momentary gains in the gym but taking sugar+caffeine (preworkout), but it kills me long-term. Are carbs the corollary with dogs on the trial field?

I think there is a lot that affects canine health and we can't only/mainly look at diet when there are so many environmental and genetic factors. There are breeds that are much more prone to certain types of cancer. We have pollution and toxins in the air, soil, water and food.

 

I think back to the dogs of my youth. They were fed commercial food with table scraps. Kibble, canned and worst of all, semi-moist. Our beloved Border Collie mix ate Gaines Burgers and way too many "snacks." These dogs didn't seem to have all the health issues we see in so many dogs today. And the dogs I knew as a kid didn't die early deaths after not getting vaccinated or being hit by cars. The majority made it to old age. The biggest issue generally was overweight and later arthritis as they aged. They just seemed like a hardier species than dogs today.

[etlai]

Touche. My wording leads one to believe I exclude other variables. Obviously, that's not the case. What I was aiming for was that diet plays a large role, and anything short of a full test cycle (1 dogs life, good, many generations, great) doesn't get us any closer to proper understanding of how the diet 'piece of the pie' affects overall health.

[Maralynn]

I wonder if the numbers are really that much higher or if our awareness makes the numbers seem higher. FWIW, My raw fed minimal vaccinated dog died from cancer. She did great on raw but it sure didn't prevent cancer in the end.

[borasaurus]

Hey, etlai, what kind of engineer are you? Just curious, because I'm an engineer and I like hearing about what people do.

 

On topic, I would be interested in studies as well. It's hard to come to any conclusion for feeding when all I have to go on is testimonials, not that I don't believe people. It's been frustrating for me because no diet changes have worked for Kieran. We're on a second food trial and it's exactly the same as the first (new vet). This is leading me to believe it might be an environmental issue anyway.

[Maralynn]

Environmental allergies are more common for dogs than food allergies are. With my first dog, her allergies cleared up for several years with a diet change and then she developed more issues in her last couple years. My 6 y/o female developed allergies last year and they're completely gone away since there's been snow on the ground. So I'm pretty confident that they're environmental (grass, pollen). She had to be on prednisone in the fall because she was scratching so bad but now there's no scatching at all.

[Mark Billadeau]

For long term multigenerational feeding trial information look into what the research dog colonies are fed:

2021 Teklad Global 21% Protein Dog Diet

 

http://www.harlan.com/products_and_services/research_models_and_services/laboratory_animal_diets/teklad_natural_ingredient_diets/teklad_global_diets/global_dog_diets/teklad_global_21_dog_diet_2021.hl

[borasaurus]

Environmental allergies are more common for dogs than food allergies are. With my first dog, her allergies cleared up for several years with a diet change and then she developed more issues in her last couple years. My 6 y/o female developed allergies last year and they're completely gone away since there's been snow on the ground. So I'm pretty confident that they're environmental (grass, pollen). She had to be on prednisone in the fall because she was scratching so bad but now there's no scatching at all.

Unfortunately, Kieran scratches year round. As soon as he's off his drugs, he'll go back to scratching within a couple days. I had to do the second food trial, but I knew it wasn't going to make a difference since it didn't do anything the first time. I guess I'm fine with the Temaril-P. The dosage is low, it's inexpensive, and he hasn't had any noticeable side effects. I just don't like the idea of him being on it go the rest of his life if we can find a better way to manage. Plus, he likes to play "hide-the-pill" and spit out the meds where he doesn't think I'll look--more of a plain nuisance than a real con.

[etlai]

This statement makes me uneasy with their understanding:

 

"The lower fat content helps maintain a leaner, more healthy body weight."

 

For humans, it's long been misunderstood that fat was the cause of obesity and a host of other ailments. The true culprit is sugar, but the this-therefore-that fallacy of "Oh they are fat, they need to cut back on fat" has pervaded social (dare I say scientific?) circles for decades. Ketosis being the proof needed to debunk this misconception.

 

I'm not going to pretend to be a master of animal metabolisms; it is not my area of expertise. I bring up the human side only to illustrate my skepticism for the animal studies. I guess my question would be: how much do dog metabolisms vary from our own, provided they are (as claimed) omnivores?

[Maralynn]

 

Unfortunately, Kieran scratches year round. As soon as he's off his drugs, he'll go back to scratching within a couple days. I had to do the second food trial, but I knew it wasn't going to make a difference since it didn't do anything the first time. I guess I'm fine with the Temaril-P. The dosage is low, it's inexpensive, and he hasn't had any noticeable side effects. I just don't like the idea of him being on it go the rest of his life if we can find a better way to manage. Plus, he likes to play "hide-the-pill" and spit out the meds where he doesn't think I'll look--more of a plain nuisance than a real con.

You're in a more southern climate, correct? if so he doesn't get a break from outdoor environmental factors (pollen) like we have in the north.

[simba]

I think there is a lot that affects canine health and we can't only/mainly look at diet when there are so many environmental and genetic factors. There are breeds that are much more prone to certain types of cancer. We have pollution and toxins in the air, soil, water and food.

 

I think back to the dogs of my youth. They were fed commercial food with table scraps. Kibble, canned and worst of all, semi-moist. Our beloved Border Collie mix ate Gaines Burgers and way too many "snacks." These dogs didn't seem to have all the health issues we see in so many dogs today. And the dogs I knew as a kid didn't die early deaths after not getting vaccinated or being hit by cars. The majority made it to old age. The biggest issue generally was overweight and later arthritis as they aged. They just seemed like a hardier species than dogs today.

Dogs today are also, for most breeds (not border collies so much mostly), that much more inbred with each decade they're in a closed registry. That has a major effect on risks of cancer and rare diseases. I doubt the original flatcoated retrievers had a 40-50% mortality from cancer, no matter what they were fed.

 

It seems with humans at least, that there is a certain baseline level of cancer you can't get away from, that occurs due to random chance- something as simple and as unavoidable as background radiation, present everywhere on the planet, causing a certain amount of cancer in the species.

 

Etlai: I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to say that a lower fat content might help maintain a lower body weight. There's an argument to be made that fat is satiating, and might help you eat fewer calories overall, but for an animal whose food is being measured out for it it would make sense to have less calorie- dense (per gram) things. I've noticed it's easier to keep my air-fern dog at the right weight on a low fat food- I even have to watch her to make sure she's getting enough.

[Mark Billadeau]

Perhaps some reading in scientific publications on dog physiology is in order.

 

One might expect palatibility would play a part in what would make a dog fat; since scent is part of this I would not be surprised if many aspects of a dogs diet and what will make them fat is much different than that of humans. Seeing that dog scenting is much different than human scenting.

[Mark Billadeau]

The colony I looked up that is being fed the food in the link is the RCC Beagle colony established in 1982. The dogs are monitored for health very closely since they are used for health research. The health of these dogs; therefore, can essentially be used for very long term feeding trial information.

 

http://www.harlan.com/download.axd/5d9a4f7d7ddd43f1a8a2c3904c9b1f24.pdf?d=3896%20Harlan%20RMS%20Datasheets%20Beagle%20v2

[Maxi]

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/management_and_nutrition/nutrition_small_animals/nutritional_requirements_and_related_diseases_of_small_animals.html#v3326697. May be of interest.. It provides tables for the most recent (2006) NRC (national research council) and Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) guidelines for nutritional requirements for cars and dogs. ETA. Also..following the link near the top of that web page for 'feeding practices for small animals' provides info for feeding requirements at different stages of a dog's life.