Dealing with people

[simba]

Trying to find a solution like that, hence the calling/texting today. No joy so far.

[Shetlander]

Good luck. Hang in there.

[rushdoggie]

It is a fact that every American knows everything important there is to know about dogs. Breathing American air installs this knowledge. The only people who will accept your intructions are the few people who actually do know something about dogs and respect if not your expertise, your authority.

 

Oh my goodness, this explains everything!

 

To the OP, good luck in finding a new sitter. Is there anything you can barter for them, like have someone watch your dogs and you watch theirs on a different day?

[geonni banner]

Given your assertions that you are young, and the lack of an age/birthday on your profile, I'm guessing that you are very young indeed. Have you spoken to your parents about the problems with your "family friends"? perhaps if they were to intercede for you, your wishes would more likely be respected. You aren't asking anything that isn't completely reasonable. And anyway, they're your dogs. If you want them to be read a bedtime story and be tucked in each night, that should not be a problem.

 

I get that you are stuck for options at the moment. I sympathize. I wonder if there is an animal shelter in your area? If there is, their volunteer staff might put you in touch with someone who could look after your dogs. As someone else said, you could offer to barter services. What are you good at? Professional pet-sitters are busy people. Try contacting some and see if there is something you could trade for pet care - house cleaning and yard work come to mind. Also, the pet sitters I know have scads of animals - grooming, cage cleaning, etc. all need to be done. There must be a way to find someone who is responsive to your needs and wishes. Keep at it.

 

I wouldn't want anyone so cavalier about my wishes for my dogs' care within 100 yards of my dogs. No reasonable person would go against your specific instructions and put your pets at risk in this way. Such behavior does not deserve forbearance and gratitude.

[Gloria Atwater]

 

They have, as far as I know, stopped doing those things (off-lead on road and such). The thing that scares me though is that when they were happening I would, for example, get calls saying the dog was running through traffic while the pet sitter walked them and the response was flat denial, and "Who said that?" Or they'd feed the dog something in front of me and then talk about how they never fed the dog. The dog got into their bin, was vomiting, and they only called me several hours later when the dog was in serious distress (pancreatitis, hence now sensitive and special diet etc.). Or the dog went missing after they'd removed the collar and they only told me when I went to pick her up, although they helped me look for her.

 

 

 

But now that I think about it- they walked the other dog on the road without a lead and she got hit by a car and had her hip broken and had to be confined for months, they continued to walk the other dog on the road without a lead when I repeatedly told them not to, they don't listen to anything I ask them to, what the hell?

 

 

Dear Simba ~

 

You seem like a very sweet and caring person, but read the parts I just put in bold font.

 

You are concerned with hurting these people's feelings? I'd be concerned with them hurting my dogs! My hair is standing straight up to read this. Some years ago I had a dog killed on the highway because I failed to secure a gate - my fault, and my beautiful, beloved dog dead at my front gate. I'll never get past that guilt so long as I live. How would you feel if one of your dogs got killed because you let these people guilt you into ignoring what you know is right?

 

If I had even the slightest concern that a pet sitter would not abide my rules for my animals as if they were clad in steel, it would be a cold day in hell before they would ever have a chance to get one of my animals killed.

 

Because that's what it boils down to. They called to lecture you about the way you keep your animals safe and healthy. How dare they? How do they know that your incontinent dog isn't really incontinent? Have they consulted with your vet? Do they know all the facts of his health and situation? (Actually, they sound like they've been watching too much Cesar Milan.)

 

I know you're in a hard place. I know that "family friends" can be the toughest to deal with, especially if they seem to see you as a child. But seriously, honey, read what you've told us. That is a hideous track record already. They got a dog hurt, they got a dog sick, they put your dogs' lives at risk in traffic several times, it sounds like ...

 

Here is the thing, dear lady. You may be young. But now is the time to grow up. You have an abundance of common sense and you're far more responsible than these supposedly more mature people dream of being. Years do not equal wisdom. Time does not equal smarts. Take those big steps into your own maturity, because these are your dogs.

 

Their health, safety and lives depend on these people doing as you ask. Their track record so far scares hell out of me and I really wish you had an alternative. I do wish you luck.

 

~ Gloria

[Hooper]

I'm away for a few days each week, so it's not just a lunchtime thing.

I absolutely agree with what everyone else has been saying about your pet-sitters being absolutely wrong to not respect your directions on what to feed your dogs, and on not allowing them to run loose, especially near a road. You sound like you have a very sensible attitude toward your dogs.

 

But, I'm trying to figure out just what the above quote means. When you say you are "away" do you mean away overnight? I assume a few days is more than two days each week. So are these three (or more) days that you are away each week consecutive? Is this a long term situation or will your periods of being away change in the foreseeable future? I apologize that my questions are pretty nosey, but I'm trying to get a picture of just what the situation is that makes you dependent on clearly unsuitable pet sitters. Whatever the situation, I certainly wish you luck finding someone who will follow your perfectly sensible rules for how to manage your dogs when you are gone.

[simba]

Away overnight, each week consecutively, for another 11 weeks. I'm in college trying to get a qualification, the hours are unpredictable week-to-week so it means I get short notice to arrange pet sitters, and it's been difficult to find work hours that are that flexible, especially given the academic workload. The family policy varies but is mostly 'don't rock the boat', they don't see it as a problem. They reckon it's my job to intercede if it's necessary, they don't want to be the ones being lectured.

 

One of the parents has done things like let the dog with allergies out so she would go to these friends because they didn't want to have to deal with keeping her contained/nags me to fatten the normal-weight dogs up so they stop misbehaving and need less work and supervision and she won't get lectured. Expect no help there.

 

Geonni Banner- I tend not to put age and sex on my profile because when I was in my late teens I got a couple of different (?) weird people making unhinged sexual references, sending me names of people they thought were me etc (this was on dog websites!). So I try to switch profile names between sites, keep age/birthday and sex hidden (makes you instantly that bit less identifiable), not talk about location or anything except in the vaguest sense.

 

Sorry if I seem excessively coy about all that, it's an ingrained habit by now.

 

It also vaguely connects to my opinion that people's ideas should be judged on their merit and their evidence. You get a lot less 'angry old venetian women' stuff on the internets with a gender-neutral name, and I didn't know on joining whether that sort of carry-on was at all prevalent here.

 

Edit: part of the trouble is that I don't get backed up by the family, they reckon it's my job to sort it out (I'm "the brave one".) So it ends up just being me being a crank. It reinforces those ideas that allow the sitters to ignore me.

[simba]

It was the incontinence thing that really got me.

 

1. The dog isn't incontinent because they haven't seen it, 'we check the beds'. 2. If you were just the leader it wouldn't happen, the leader decides where dogs pee. 3. Spay incontinence is nonsense, ridiculous, "it just doesn't happen". 4. If intermittent incontinence really is the case (said with clear skepticism in a kind of 'aha! See, she isn't incontinent!' way), there's something seriously wrong and she should see a vet. 5. The vet is incompetent, because I know spay incontinence is a myth, and you should get a second opinion, that's nonsense.

 

Throughout this discussion I tried citing scientific evidence, I tried appealing to the vet's authority. But the idea that you would tell someone else their dog isn't incontinent...

 

I think she thinks it's an excuse of mine not to let the dogs out or something. This was because I was responding to a lecture about "You need to establish a routine. That dog pees, and when we have our routine she doesn't." It couldn't be what the vet said, it had to be my lack of authority. 'Nonsense' appeared to be the word of the day. It certainly got used a lot.

 

I can deal with that if I knew the dogs were safe. The issue is that while it appears that they are following those safety things at the moment, given the history, I do not feel I can trust them.

[juliepoudrier]

Their ignorance is showing when they say a dog doesn't like the stinky shit on its collar. The dog rolled in the shit because THEY LIKE IT!

 

Anyway,I'm wondering if you mostly just want to vent because you can't change the situation and so will continue to have to deal with these people putting your dogs' lives at risk. You will be the one saddled with guilt when something bad happens (from your descriptions clearly they won't feel bad about any adverse consequences that arise from their own misguided handling of your dogs), and since something bad has already happened, multiple times, it's only a matter of time before they kill one of your dogs with their "kindness."

 

You really need to decide just how much YOU can take. I routinely trade out dog care with friends. One friend in particular is perfect for my old dogs (and me for hers). We live about 3.5 hours apart, but we make it work because it's important to us to make sure that our dogs are cared for in a way we consider acceptable. It's a big deal (time, money, one more somewhat complicated thing that needs to be done before leaving home) to have to travel that far to hand over dogs right before going out of town, but for peace of mind we do it. This year we are both traveling in May, me in the US, her to Geneva. She will have my oldster (maybe two) for most of the week I'm gone, and then there is a two-day overlap between when she leaves and I come back. She is arranging for someone (vet tech) to come in at that time. On my way home from my trip, I will drop south to her house, pick up her two oldsters (both in renal failure and needing specific care like daily fluids, special diets, meds, etc., and for whom I wouldn't dream of altering their care to suit my desires rather than hers) and mine who is more of a management issue because of mobility issues and incontinence. I will care for hers until she comes back, and then we will arrange to meet so that I can return her dogs to her. It will be a lot of effort to make this work, but when we last talked about this, we both felt a huge sense of relief knowing that someone we trust will be caring for our neediest, most vulnerable dogs.

 

Another lady, who works at the farm where I live, lets my old, incontinent dog out during the day while I'm at work. In exchange I help her with her dogs on stock and don't ask her to pay for lessons. I have another two friends who both live more than 6 hours from me. When I needed someone who could care for my fear aggressive dog (known biter) on different occasions, both ot these folks were willing to take him. In exchange, I have helped them with stockwork, given them sheep/lambs, or kept dogs for them.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you may be able to come up with creative solutions to dog care that don't involve these particular family friends. I am not trying to guilt you, honest (I feel bad about the guilt you already feel because some of this situation seems a bit out of your control), just trying to give you some examples of how you can barter with the friends you trust in order to make sure your dogs are cared for in the way you think they should be.

 

I also hate to suggest this, but think it should be put out there: Is there anyone you trust who would take your dogs on a permanent or semipermanent basis until you are in a better place to be able to care for them yourself? It would kill me to be in that situation, but I do have people in mind who would take my dogs for the short or long term should something happen in my life to make that necessary. It may seem unthinkable now, but if the alternative is to risk the lives of your dogs on a daily basis, then it may be a reasonable choice.

 

J.

[simba]

I don't have any friends within traveling distance willing to do it. I've literally asked all of my friends with transport, though I'm waiting on a couple of replies. I'm going to start scouting neighbourhood kids now, and ask in the vet and rescues and ocal pet shops to see if they'd know anyone.

 

I had thought of rehoming- but where? The dogs are not low-maintenance, they're old, they have lumps and bumps and medical problems and one of them needs very expensive food in carefully titrated quantities. I don't have anyone who would be willing to take them who I'd trust not to kill the allergic dog. She's already lived two months longer than the last dog the vet saw who had the same thing.

 

Our local rescue wouldn't take a dog who came in to kill our chickens, because as far as they were concerned he now had a home. No chance of taking three older dogs.

[D'Elle]

I feel very bad for you, being in this untenable situation, and I wish you the very best in finding an alternative. The bottom line here, though, is that your dogs are, as has been said many times already, in serious danger. That being the case, if it were me, I would not allow those people anywhere near my dogs for even one more day.

I am a person who abhors owing money for any reason, but I would go into debt, if necessary, to board my dogs at a good boarding facility, rather than have them with people who would be so cavalier and irresponsible about their care. Your current situation will only last several more weeks. Although boarding costs a lot, to me it would be far preferable to go into debt to pay for it than to have the danger of my dogs being injured, killed, or made ill. Some vet offices will board dogs, and some of them do not charge as much as other boarding facilities. Shop around - maybe you can find some place that will board them for you. Can you take even one of them with you when you travel? Leave him or her in your car and go let out at intervals? Then you'd only have to board two. Look on Craig's List for people who pet-sit. Call vet offices and ask them for referrals.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a solution.

[Tommy Coyote]

You know, to be perfectly honest, I just wouldn't leave my dogs in the care of people like that. I would either quit the course and work out another way to achieve my goals or board them the days I was gone. If something happened while you were away you would never forgive yourself.

 

I would absolutely be sick with worrying about them.

[etlai]

I do not have but a fraction of the experience of many on these boards, but what I have, I own completely.

 

When I got started in border collies 5 years ago, I came from 2 decades of dog ownership of various kinds. I trained my dogs to sit, lie down, come hither, shake hands, heel, walk nearby, freedom etc. When Maggie came into my life, the usual commands were learned in record time and I was challenged to come up with new ways to keep her mind sharp. I taught her to use her nose, developed intricate ball games.. the world was our playground.

 

And that was my undoing. I neglected to teach her that pavement is not for play. She does not differentiate between an empty parking lot and a highway. 1 year ago during Super Bowl weekend, she scampered into the road without pause and was run over by some driver not paying an ounce of attention. Not even a tap of brake lights was witnessed as the white truck disappeared from view.

 

Thankfully, the wheels missed her, and the impact left her shaken, confused, and unable to put any weight on her left rear leg. But she was alive. Thank GOD, I still have my best friend. Vet bills and a rehabilitation period of 2 months ensued. Walking her (not running her) 3x a day for 2 hours, massaging her hip and knee before an after. Shaking at night sometimes, cursing my ignorance in training.

 

...

 

I learned that even I can sometimes be untrustworthy to properly care for this animal that gives every fiber in its being to me. But who else gives this level of care to my dog? If I, untrustworthy and guilt-ridden about this incident, could not meet the needs of the animal, how well could those who DON'T care for her the way I do properly meet her needs? Needless to say, I'm beyond selective about who is entrusted with my dogs: I'm a profiler and discriminator, absolutely.

 

RUN, do not walk, from the care of your 'friends'. If they were true friends, they would honor your concerns, not ignore them. They clearly know nothing of both dog handling and friendship. Find a way to have the dogs watched while you're busy. If it's a period of less than 24hr, crate them. I'd take a cooped-up situation for my dogs anyday over a situation that risks leaving them abused, malnourished or worse: dead. Money cannot buy your dog back.

[gcv-border]

I won't repeat my previous advice which is identical to almost every respondent on this thread. I think you have heard us. You are looking for better options. A few people have suggested bartering for services or boarding, even if you have to go into debt to board your dogs. That got me thinking about a possible option. Is there a vet or boarding facility in your area where you could arrange to board your dogs in exchange for working? [i am not sure what your financial status is, but if you are young and still in university, you don't have a lot of $$. I know I didn't.]

 

Good Luck.

[moosikins]

Would it be possible for you to hire a local teenager or an older child to help out? There is a 13 year old girl down the street from me who is quite mature for her age and so eager to help us and spend time with Callie that she does everything above and beyond what we ask.

 

She gets a key to the house when we need her, $5-10 (depending on the time commitment we're asking for that day) on the coffee table, some snacks, and a sheet of instructions. I know for a fact that she follows every single of our requests and spends extra time cuddling and walking Callie! Cal just adores her and tugs me over to say hello every time she spots her buddy on the street.

 

Sometimes it's the people you wouldn't expect much from that surpass your expectations. Overall, it sounds like you need someone who would respect your authority over your own animals. Your situation sounds stressful - I hope you find a good alternative for your precious puppers.

[chene]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but see if there are any local petsitting or dog-walking or dog social groups in your area, too. They all tend to do pet-sitting exchanges and some are even happy just to have the company for their dogs.

EDIT:

There's something else I want to say. I'm probably about your age, and man, I get it. I'm not averse to conflict by any means, but there's a level of cautiousness in starting it, and I don't know how I ever would with people I knew personally. I would state the facts, and do what was necessary, but I probably couldn't bring myself to berate someone, especially someone who was trying to be helpful and thought they knew better than me. Of course, if you are the kind of person who can do that, then by all means, do it! There's nothing wrong with giving them a piece of your mind, or whatever the term's supposed to be. But don't feel like you're somehow in the wrong for not going ballistic on people who aren't treating your dogs the way you want. We all handle things differently, and there's absolutely no problem with dealing with things quietly. In the end it's not going to make any difference for the outcome of your dogs.

[simba]

Anyone have a citation for the fact that dogs are less likely to inappropriately eliminate when kept in a smaller space?

 

Edt: oh, and I was told it's stupid to think that locking them in the big room will be teaching them to piss inside, all dogs naturally know not to eliminate inside, everyone knows that.

 

Sorry, small elderly dog thinks elimination indoors is absolutely right when it's cold and if you do it in a quiet corner, so you have to basically sit on her to make her 'go' outside and then praise etc. Hence why I want HER kept in the smaller room too. The other dog thinks sitting on the kitchen table is a fun game when no-one's home, although she's sneaky enough not to usually get caught, so I want her not in the kitchen either.

[gcv-border]

I don't have a citation, but from my reading and comments of other dog owners, dogs are less likely to eliminate when in their den/crate. BUT if the area is made a bit bigger (each dog will have their own opinion of how big is big enough), the dog will take advantage of the bigger area to eliminate IF it hasn't been taught that eliminating is done outside ONLY. For example, some people will keep puppies in huge crates and provide a space in that crate for the puppy to eliminate. Usually the pup/dog does not like to mess in the same space it sleeps. I would guess that a dog that has not been house-trained would also be fine with messing inside if kept in a small room or within the space of an X-pen. It will depend on their training, how far away they can find to eliminate and how desperate they are.

 

To put it another way, dogs are opportunists and will go inside (unless in a den-like space where they can not separate themselves from their 'product') if they have not been trained otherwise.

[moosikins]

@gvc-border: I think that's very accurate - Callie used to sneak upstairs into the loft to go if we didn't catch her signals quick enough (she was a very small 8 lb when we got her and couldn't hold it longer than 5 min after she noticed she needed to go). It was far away from her normal play area and wouldn't bother her if it smelled. Now that she's older and bigger, she knows that potty time is outside and will always hold it and ask to go out, no matter what.

[Maxi]

Anyone have a citation for the fact that dogs are less likely to inappropriately eliminate when kept in a smaller space?

 

Edt: oh, and I was told it's stupid to think that locking them in the big room will be teaching them to piss inside, all dogs naturally know not to eliminate inside, everyone knows that.

 

Sorry, small elderly dog thinks elimination indoors is absolutely right when it's cold and if you do it in a quiet corner, so you have to basically sit on her to make her 'go' outside and then praise etc. Hence why I want HER kept in the smaller room too. The other dog thinks sitting on the kitchen table is a fun game when no-one's home, although she's sneaky enough not to usually get caught, so I want her not in the kitchen either.

I know it's not a formal peer reviewed science reference, but would your friends accept Dr. Sophia Yin's insights on dog behaviour?

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/is_my_male_shih_tzu_being_a_s_when_he_potties_in_the_house In this she writes.

"So, how do you train your dog that the toilet is outside only and that you want the inside to be potty free? You have to go back to the basics.....Next, when he's inside, he must have no chance to have an accident. That means he's attached to you by leash at all times or in a comfy crate."

(My emphasis)

Edited so that link works

[GentleLake]

Anyone have a citation for the fact that dogs are less likely to inappropriately eliminate when kept in a smaller space?

 

Honestly, from what you've said about these people, I wouldn't be too optimistic that anything you give them is going to hold much sway.

 

And even if they say they're persuaded, are you really gong to be convinced they are after their past track record?

 

I know you're between a rock and a hard place here, but if it were me, I'd be expending my efforts on finding a reliable alternative to your friends rather than in trying to get them to be different from what they've already demonstrated themselves to be.

[Shetlander]

There's something else I want to say. I'm probably about your age, and man, I get it. I'm not averse to conflict by any means, but there's a level of cautiousness in starting it, and I don't know how I ever would with people I knew personally. I would state the facts, and do what was necessary, but I probably couldn't bring myself to berate someone, especially someone who was trying to be helpful and thought they knew better than me. Of course, if you are the kind of person who can do that, then by all means, do it! There's nothing wrong with giving them a piece of your mind, or whatever the term's supposed to be. But don't feel like you're somehow in the wrong for not going ballistic on people who aren't treating your dogs the way you want. We all handle things differently, and there's absolutely no problem with dealing with things quietly. In the end it's not going to make any difference for the outcome of your dogs.

 

 

I said this in a post on the previous page of this thread, but it is worth repeating. You do not need to be rude, mean, loud or berating in order to stand up for yourself and what you care about. There is a whole lot between being completely aggressive and being completely passive. Many people of all ages are uncomfortable with speaking up when they need to. It is a skill we need to practice, sometimes learn about (there are books and I would guess websites on how to confront people or have difficult conversations) and build skills at doing.

 

I didn’t realize anyone was suggesting the OP should go ballistic on her friends. Some have said they would not allow those kind of caregivers. Some have offered up a variety of possible solutions. Because we all love dogs, posters on these boards can speak very strongly about dogs being put at risk.

 

The OP is facing a very tough situation, no doubt. But here is the thing, life is full of hard situations and also unfortunately with people who will push us around, given half a chance. We can calmly, quietly, politely and even very kindly or sweetly make our expectations, boundaries, requests, etc. known to those around us. And then enforce those expectations by doing what we feel is best to take care of ourselves and those we love. It doesn’t need to be a big drama. And if it is a big drama from the other side, we can end the conversation, walk away, etc. until the other person or persons are willing to have a reasonable dialogue.

 

Confrontation does not need to be in your face. It can simply be stating what it is you are going to do with as much or as little explanation as you want to offer. If the OP can find different arrangements, all she really needs to say to her friends is “Thanks so much for all your help, but I am going to handle pet sitting in a new way. I need to know my dogs are taken care of the way I feel is best.” She doesn’t need to engage in any argument or justify her decision or cite any references which I doubt her friends would respect anyway, from what she has shared. If they say they are hurt or upset or angry, she can say “I am very sorry you feel that way. I appreciate your help. I value your friendship. And this is what I am going to do now.”

 

Easy? No. Does this sort of thing get easier with time? Well, yes, to some extent. We build up endurance and skills that work for us in these situations. I am thirty years removed from college and have been supervising people for the past twenty. I have had countless uncomfortable, difficult and excruciatingly painful conversations. So I know how to do them. I don’t enjoy them. I dread some of them. But I do what needs to be done because at work that is what I am paid to do and much less frequently in my personal life, because sometimes that is what needs to be done. I try to talk to others the way I would want to be talked to if I was being approached about whatever the situation is. That means I approach them honestly, calmly, respectfully and kindly. But also firmly and clearly.

 

And after the conversation is over, life goes on, often for the better in one way or the other. A needed change is made. A solution is found. Miscommunication is cleared up. Not easy. But necessary at times.

[urge to herd]

^^^^^^ This! Thanks, GentleLake.

[Alfreda]

What a tough situation! I hope you have good luck finding alternate dog care! I agree with Gentle Lake and others that using citations to change the beliefs and beahviors of these family friends is probably not going to be productive. I lost faith in them way back at the part where a dog got hit by a car. It also sounds a little Cesear Milan- ish to me....

 

However, since you asked for "citations," I thought I'd mention a book by Suzanne Hetts that targets the top 12 myths of dog training (---yes, I know another quick & dirty "top" list, but this is a good one, grounded in science, and a quick, easy read). I think I will post about it elsewhere, because it's a sound debunking of the "alpha" "pack leader" misconception, as well as other issues. It's not a how-to; it's an explanation of why some beliefs are misconceptions still commonly held by many dog owners and trainers.

 

Specific to your question though: Making a crate space smaller and smaller for a dog that eliminates in the crate is something the (Phd behaviorist) author adresses. She distinguishes between "good" crate-training and not-so-good and refers to the ASPCA website for more info. I know many people on this list feel their (adult) dogs are fine in crates all day long. I just think it's worth considering what ASPCA has to say about using crates-

 

Here is the link for the book by Suzanne Hetts:

www.terribledogtrainingmistakes.com

 

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/weekend-crate-training

 

Above is the link to ASPCA crate training page which states in part: "...At night when dogs sleep, their body systems and elimination slow down. This is why they can go all night without eliminating once they’re old enough to have sufficient bladder and bowel control. But during the day, neither puppies nor adult dogs should be crated for more than four or five hours at a time...."

 

I hope this helps add to your resource list anyway. Best of luck finding a workable, safe situation for you and your dogs!