Wtf? What is her deal?

[sugarpup]

Some of you have been reading about Freyja, our new girl fresh from seven months at the pound. One of the respondents said that often they start behaving worse after about a couple of weeks. Well it has been two weeks tomorrow.

 

She's decided she prefers to stay outside as much as possible, which is fine while the weather is not overly cold but it could be 40 below any day now. It is taking a lot of cajoling to get her to come inside. I tried just leaving the door open but when it's below freezing that is not a plan for more than a minute or two. She comes close to the patio doors to watch what's going on, but retreats when you open the door and just stares tentatively, wagging her tail gently and if you approach she backs up.

 

Even Bogart can't get her to come in. He tries to tempt her in and she will get her Front feet in and stands there blocking the door and if she's approached she backs out again. It is incredibly frustrating as I think she would stand there indefinately. I've tried ignoring her and closing the blinds. When I checked on her last night she had rolled her self into a tiny ball on the deck in the snow. She prefers this to being in a warm house on the cushion? It is incredibly insulting and I can't help taking it personally.

 

It appears today she decided she doesn't like any of us. Should I put her on a long leash to go outside to relieve herself and not allow her to play? Can't imagine dragging her in would be a good idea.

 

Has this incredibly ridiculous behavior happened with anybody else?

[Maralynn]

Why do you find this insulting? Dogs have perferences, too. And she doesn't really know you or has had time to get truly comfortable in your home yet. Look at it from her perspective - new home, new people, new situation. Border Collies are a sensitive breed and it may be a bit overwhelming for her going from a kennel to a busy home. The first dog I had sat in a corner for two weeks. I ignored her except to feed her and take her outside and quietly praised interaction that *she* initiated.

[MrSnappy]

This is tongue-in-cheek, right? You're not *actually* insulted that your shelter dog, who may have only ever known life in a backyard, has anxiety around coming in the house? You're not really taking this personally, correct?

 

it never fails to amaze me how self-centered we humans are, and how personally we take things rather than trying to empathize with the critter causing us distress. You should be sad for her that she is showing you all this fear around coming inside, not getting miffed about it. This abandoned dog is in a new home, with new people and dogs and experiences and she is expected to disregard everything she has ever known and immediately fall into line with your expectations - and you're offended that she's not doing that. How about looking at it from her perspective? You need to own your half of the bargain, and help her understand the ways in which things are different for her now. If you don't want her to stay outside, don't give her that opportunity. Yes a long line outside. Yes, lots of reward for coming into the house, lots of opportunity to make the house a high value experience for her. Set her up for success.

 

RDM

[Tommy Coyote]

I have had two rescues that had been outside dogs. Bandit must have been punished for coming in. He was actually afraid to come in the house. When I tried to coax him inside he got so nervous he would take off and run up and down the fence line. One time he ran for 2 hours. I knew he would need water so I left the water inside and he finally got desperate enough to come in. I couldn't catch him.

 

He finally got over it and learned to come inside.

 

Zeke that I have now was an outside dog and he still loves to be outside. He would stay out all day if I let him. I just don'

t let him. I had a few problems with him coming in at first because he hadn't been inside and had no idea how to act inside. But it was amazing how fast he caught on. He would jump up on the kitchen table so he could look out the back window. And then he would climb up on the counter.

 

He has learned to come in and he enjoys it now. But he still loves to be outside where he can watch the world go by.

 

I just kept correcting him - pretty gentle corrections. And he got it.

 

It just takes time and patience. And I use treats. They get a treat when they come in fast when I call. And Zeke is all about food so he is very responsive to that..

[Maxi]

As others have said, don't expect a dog to be able to deal with her anxieties just because you think your option is what is best for her. She needs time and patience from you.

 

However, if she currently prefers to be outside on your deck and it is very cold outside, I would also give her somewhere that she can use as a 'den' should she choose to use it.

 

So can you put something like a covered open kennel/crate on the deck?

 

Wood or even a cardboard box (if it somewhere that wont get wet) would be more insulating than plastic . Also put a lot of straw in it so that she can bury herself into it. Let her decide whether she wants to use it, ..maybe just feed her near to the entrance, so she knows it is there.

[gcv-border]

I was the one who talked about the honeymoon period. It is very common with rescue dogs with a background of undersocialization and/or other 'bad' experiences in their past.

 

To put your post in its best light, I will also assume that it was a little tongue-in-cheek. If you have never dealt with this type of dog before, it can be very frustrating until you change your mindset and realize that Freyja is not trying to 'flip you off', she is seriously trying to deal with all the new changes in her life - which are very, VERY scary to her. People often think that if they give a rescue dog a wonderful life, they will be fine. Not so.

 

I like to recommend to anyone who adopts a rescue dog with 'baggage' to read "Love Has No Age Limit" by Patricia McConnell. It is a short and concise book that lists the main issues associated with rescue dogs and how to deal with them. Because the book is fairly short (less than 100 pages), she can not go into depth about any individual topic, but it is a good starting point for further research.

 

Yes, keep her on a long line outside so she doesn't have to stay out in minus 40 degree weather. When you do reel her inside, make sure to treat her with a very high-value treat (steak, hot dog, turkey are usually good for most dogs). Don't use the cheap biscuit treats or her kibble. If she won't take the treat out of your hand, just drop it on the floor and walk a few feet away and see if she will eat it then. Also, if she is needing to destress, she may need a den somewhere in the house that is very quiet - maybe a little used room.

 

To me, she sounds like a wonderful dog who is trying very hard. From experience, you will see one step forward, then 2 steps back, but eventually you will begin to see 2 steps forward and only one step back.

 

Prepare to be very, very patient and very reinforcing of anything she tries. Don't be surprised if the process takes months or even more than a year.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

I have a three year old trained sheepdog, well nurtured, well trained, well handled. After six months of retraining most mornings, travel together and trialing together, he and I are almost bonded. If treats work, fine, but they are NOT magic. What sort of treat would lure you into a really, really frightening place? Patience works. One day she will come to see "inside" as comforting as you see it.

 

Donald McCaig

[Root Beer]

You could try this:

 

Use super high value food (chicken or beef or something) to get her into the house. As suggested above, you don't have to have her take it from you - you can drop it on the floor (you could even start by dropping it at the doorway and then going away). As soon as she eats it, quietly send her outside. Give her a bit of time outside, and repeat. Call her in, use the food to lure, if necessary, drop it on the floor, quietly send her out.

 

I would repeat this several times a day and see if it would lead to some hanging about looking for food - in this case, that would be a very good thing! You could build a lot on any willingness to come in the door.

 

Beyond that, give her time, time, and more time. Having lived with a semi-feral rescue, there is no specific timeframe for things to start to change.

 

And do try not to take her reluctance to come inside personally.

 

When I first started taking Tessa to training classes, she would run to the front door (once put outside), plaster herself to it and shriek because I was separating her from my other dogs. It took a while, but eventually she was vying to be the one who got to go off alone with me and now she will try to beat down the door to be the one to go. It was nothing personal when she didn't want to go with me alone to start. She was afraid. I was taking her away from one of the few bits of security she had in life at that time (and she had no way to know it was temporary at first).

 

Building trust with these sorts of dogs takes a lot of time and patience. It gets better, but it can take quite a while.

[juliepoudrier]

Please don't be exasperated with her. She can read your emotions and the more insulted you are (and she knows it, trust me), the more scared, and thus more reluctant, she will be to come in. It will be a vicious cycle. Put aside your own ego and try to understand her fears and help her through them. Please.

 

J.

[Maxi]

..just a thought,

 

.even if the 2 dogs are happy to play together some of the time, there may be issues over territories.

 

Are you absolutely sure that Bogart is trying to coax her in, rather than giving signals that she shouldn't cross over into 'his' domain (the house)? - these signals can be very subtle for example just lying near the doorway, or throwing her a warning glance from a distance.

[moosikins]

I've always heard that it takes a minimum of 6 weeks to even see a shelter dog's true personality. You might see more of her true fear before she becomes completely comfortable in your home and you slowly mold her behaviors to fit your home. 7 months is a LONG time to spend in a really loud, scary, and relatively deprived environment. Shelters often try to socialize the dogs and show them love and affection, but with so many animals in need, it's impossible to do that efficiently for each animal. Their basic needs are satisfied and they wait so patiently for their new home...

 

Again, 7 months is a really, really long time to be trapped in such an environment. Some dogs don't even make it at the shelter that long and need foster breaks because they start to act our or completely retreat into themselves. It's so sad to see...And then once you get them out and give them time to get acclimated to being loved and cared for, they turn into a completely different dog.

 

I've seen loud, crazy, jumpy dogs become absolute cuddle bugs who look like they've been content with their family for a decade when their adopters bring them to visit. And the really shy, terrified things hiding in the back of the cage before someone took a chance on them often come back with wagging tails, drooling all over you and begging for physical attention. Total personality and behavior change when put into the right loving home.

 

At the end though, you'll have a dog that's learned to trust you despite her previous circumstances and there's nothing more rewarding than having broken through with a dog like that...

[GentleLake]

I've always heard that it takes a minimum of 6 weeks to even see a shelter dog's true personality.

 

And I've heard 3 months.

 

Bodhi was a stray who had been picked up, taken the the shelter and then into a rescue before I adopted him. He regained his confidence fairly quickly (though he's still not a super confident dog 7 years later), but I was seeing new behaviors from him for a full 6 months after I brought him home. I really didn't see the dog he was for 6 months.

 

So if Freyja was even more shut down to begin with, it could take even longer.

 

As important as it is to understand this and that she needs time and patience, the most important thing to take from these posts is that the others are right. This is not about you!

 

Can't emphasize this enough. You need to put your own ego aside and not take any of this personally. It's not about you! She needs time, she needs patience, and she needs you not to add to her difficulties adjusting by adding your stress to the already considerable stress she's feeling all on her own.

 

A nice side effect is that you'll begin to feel better about all of it, too, when you let go of believing it has anything to do with you.

[Shetlander]

As others have pointed out, you have a dog who has been traumatized and is fearful. It is nothing personal. She is simply a confused, frightened dog. I have had a couple of insecure, fearful dogs who were that way due to temperament rather than experience.. It takes patience and persistence to help them build confidence and trust. The patience is being calm, reassuring and not becoming upset or frustrated. It is not feeling like it is something you did or a commentary on you as a person/owner. The persistence is gently encouraging the dog to move out of her comfort zone. You don’t want to push too fast or you could further increase the dog’s fears and even create new behaviors you don’t like. It is a balancing act because the dog sets the pace for the most part, but you need to keep encouraging her to try new things, go new places, etc.

 

Now in the case of the dog not wanting to come in, I would not give that as an option. I would take the dog out on a leash, be very pleasant about going back in, offer treats or dinner or something she loves, but I would not let her practice being isolated, the poor thing. You could put her on a long line if you can’t always go out with her, but I wouldn’t let her stay out when it was time to come back in. As others have said, set her up for success and make coming into the house a very rewarding activity.

 

 

Has this incredibly ridiculous behavior happened with anybody else

 

If you want to talk about ridiculous behaviors, several years ago my Sheltie who lived with me since she was 10 weeks old decided she was frightened of the reclining sofa in the living room. The footrest had risen into her one too many times, apparently. To add to that, if you didn’t raise the footrest slowly, it made a loud noise that upset her. She grew up with that sofa but over time decided it was evil and acted as if it was going to get up on all fours and chase her through the house. So she avoided the getting on the sofa, or being near the sofa. If anyone raised a footrest, she ran from the room and stayed in the kitchen where it was safe. Eventually she decided she would just stay in the kitchen and avoid the living room altogether. That is the thing with fears and avoidance. The more you avoid something that frightens you, the more relief you have being away from it but also the more aversive dealing with the frightening object becomes.

 

Since I spend the majority of my waking hours at home in the living room and next to no time in the kitchen, I wasn’t willing to let her hide in the kitchen by herself. I started with feeding her on the sofa, carrying her there at first. She was a glutton, so once she was on the sofa, she stayed long enough to lick her bowl clean before bailing. Soon she was able to jump on the sofa herself to eat meals, but she left as soon as she finished. She became a little more comfortable in the living room but still stayed away from the sofa and ran if someone put up the foot rest. At that point, I started putting her on a leash and keeping her on the sofa with me, keeping treats nearby or on me, so I could periodically give her a little cookie for staying on the sofa. She wasn’t violently struggling but she didn’t want to be there. Over time, she slowly relaxed about the sofa until she got over her fears completely. The only time she got a little nervous was with visitors who didn’t always control how the footrests went up, creating that noise she didn’t like. But once they were settled in, she’d return to the living room and hang out with us.

 

Now that whole sofa phobia was a very silly Sheltie thing to my mind but she was honestly very frightened. She needed to be helped gently, patiently, and persistently to work through that overwhelming fear

 

You have done a wonderful thing to give this beautiful girl a chance but it will take some time and patience to help her settle in. One thing I have found with my fearful dogs is it is incredibly rewarding to watch them build confidence and become happier and more secure in life. Hang in there and give her time. Remember, her behavior is about what she has been through and her fears. She is just a dog who will benefit from the helping hand you can give her. Good luck!

[TDFOSTER]

Just as a thought that Root Beer mentioned. When I got Jade she absolutely refused to come through the door to the house and it was January and it was several degrees below freezing. The behavriorist I was working with recommended to put a leash on her and leave it on her..then as Root Beer suggested...high value food. Jade's was hot dogs. Just small pieces dropped outside the door and a trail into the house far enough that she had to come all the way in to get them, then quickly shutting the door behind her. One of the things I learned with Jade is that she had a price...and if you didn't reach the price (number of pieces of hot dog to entice her) she wasn't coming in. And it seemed each time the price was different. The leash was left on so that in case she was in harm's way I could grab her and help her in the house. And actually the first few weeks she was with me, I actually had to pick her up and carry her out. I also set up a pen on my deck...which was covered with snow so that she was close by and safe.

 

It is not easy with a rescue dog...and I have learned that BC's are extremely sensitve and take much more patience and time but they are so worth it when they start to trust and become the dog they can become. This forum has taught me so much and helped me to help a dog that I might have otherwise given up on. She is still my foster and her year anniversary in the foster home is rapidly approaching. When I look back at the road we have traveled it makes my heart happy with her progress. I wish you the same as you move forward.

[sugarpup]

Thanks to all who have commented. It was facetious of me to say I was insulted, personally. She is only a little dog. You have to be human to insult someone! I was however deeply perplexed and becoming exasperated.

 

I've been puzzling over her behavior all day, and I've realized that she is not the least bit afraid of the house, though doorways do make her very nervous. I think she may have been slammed in a door once. She looks at doors with great caution.

 

This is the problem: She's afraid of my daughter and my son. My daughter acts oddly as i mentioned in a previous post. I'm certain that my daughter has not even made eye contact with her in this two weeks so maybe Freyja sees this as somehow threatening. After my daughter went to her day program Freyja happily came in the house and entered and exited to play and relieve herself with no problem whatsoever. When my daughter came home, Freyja ran to the door to try to leave. I did not let her leave, she is in the other side of the house. That is what it is, I cannot change my daughter.

 

There's no reason in the world for her to be afraid of my son except that he is a big guy with a deep gravelly voice. He tries very hard to be nonthreatening but she actually barked at him today and growled. I corrected her for that. I am concerned because he said to me the other day as a joke but with a touch of seriousness "Freyja has done the impossible, she's making me dislike a dog."

 

I think that is going to be the biggest problem. She obviously has big issues with men. And despite what many say about how it's all about the dog and nothing about us, it is painful to have someone be terrified by you just because of what you look like.

[gcv-border]

Short comments as I have to go somewhere: (I know others will give more complete and additional suggestions.)

 

"I'm certain that my daughter has not even made eye contact with her in this two weeks so maybe Freyja sees this as somehow threatening." Actually, dogs find eye contact threatening. An animal or person who does NOT make eye contact is less threatening. It you think she is afraid of your daughter, there is probably another characteristic or behavior that she is frightened of. When younger, my dog didn't want to get within 20 feet of a toddler. A LOT of treats later (and several years too), he is better IF they approach slowly, and I make sure they do not pet him on his head (dogs HATE that if they are not comfortable with the person).

 

"There's no reason in the world for her to be afraid of my son except that he is a big guy with a deep gravelly voice" That IS reason enough for an undersocialized rescue dog to be afraid of a person. IF he wants to help Freyja like him, he should modulate his voice to be softer around her, and he could give her treats. I would have him start by sitting in a chair (less threatening) and throwing VERY High value treats toward her. You may have to help her get the treats at first if she is so frightened, but she will catch on. As she looks forward to the treats, he could throw them closer and closer. Recognize that it could take weeks, or more, for her to warm up to him.

 

Don't correct her for growling as she is telling you that she is frightened/uncomfortable. She is giving you information!!! that you can use to understand her. [she could give you the same information by biting him, but she is a good girl.]

[GentleLake]

Fear is not always rational, and when it's not, trying to think about it that way isn't going to be helpful.

 

I'm afraid of heights. Though I've never fallen off a tall building, I'm still terrified to the point of not being able to function properly when I'm in a high place. No amount of explaining to me that there's a solid floor underneath me and that I'm not going to fall is going to help. And you can't even explain that to a dog!

 

Correcting a dog for growling at someone or something it's afraid of can seriously backfire. It doesn't teach the dog to be less afraid, or to develop any confidence, but it can teach a dog to suppress the warning and go straight to a bite the next time she feels threatened or afraid and is asking for some space. Instead of correcting her, it would be better to respect her fear and take the pressure off.

 

If you were joking about being insulted by the dog, then I have to hope that your son is also being facetious about learning not to like the dog. I'd have to say the same thing to him as I did to you before -- It's not about you! He just needs to have more patience than you have, because for whatever reason she's more afraid of him than he is of you. It's a good exercise for him in developing patience.

 

Honestly, I'm worried that there could be a grain of truth behind the facetiousness and that you and your son are both taking her snubs personally on some level.

 

As for your daughter, it's good that you've recognized that this is what's causing much of Freyja's fear. Just like some people, dogs are afraid of people who are "different." If nothing bad happens to her when she's around your daughter, then she'll probably eventually learn to be less fearful around her. You can pair your daughter's presence (and your son's -- who feed Freyja? Maybe that could be his job?) with wonderful things like yummy treats, play, toys, mealtime (if she's not too scared to eat). Help her understand that good things can happen when your daughter's around, but don't try to push her into any interactions and don't coddle her then either. Just go about your routines as if there's nothing different and nothing for her to be afraid if. It's still early days and this is just another thing for her to learn to live with comfortably.

 

It might be helpful to both make sure she's pottied before your daughter comes home so that she can be brought into the house before she's actually afraid to, and also to make sure she has some places where she can be away from your daughter and feel safe. Let her come out in her own time.

 

Continued best wishes helping her out.

[GentleLake]

Everything Jovi said at the same time I was writing. Also ask your son not to make direct eye contact with Frejya. If he can sit sideways and not look at her, she's much less likely to be intimidated.

[sugarpup]

Okay, now I'm even more perplexed. You say not to correct her when she growls but yesterday when I let her bark and growl at the kids on the lawn, more than one person told me I shouldn't let her do that as it may escalate. Which is it?

[B Point]

Well, hey....it's doorways and kids. At least you know what freaks her out. It's actually great that you have two kids to help work her through her issues. You need to sit down with them and work out a game plan and make them realize as family members that they have a very important role to play not only for the household dynamic but in the dog's overall rehabilitation.

 

Trust me, we just went through a hellishly long and difficult rehab with our guy and each member of the family stepped up and it made us ALL better and closer for it.

 

You can do this!! Think "Two Socks" from Dances With Wolves... It's going to take time, patience and a little strategy to bring her around.

[Cass C]

To answer your question there is a difference between excited/'this is my house, go away' barking/growling and fear/'I don't feel safe' barking and growling. You stop the exited barking/growling, but when it is fear based you do not discipline her. One way to look at it is if your child were screaming and acting crazy for no good reason they would be disciplined somehow to quiet them, but if something scared them and they screamed you would want to comfort them not yell at them.

 

To answer your question about why she is afraid of your son. Some dogs like my Lily are VERY over sensitive about voices. If men with deep voices talk to her she panics pees and retreats. I've had her since she was 10 weeks old and she has never had a bad male experience. Even now at a year old she runs from DH if he doesn't use an extra happy voice. She finally stopped panicking and peeing at about 9 months, and he was really upset she didn't seem to like her. After he understood why she was upset by his presence he realized it was just her and adjusted his behavior accordingly. We have used lots of treats and play to get her to willingly seek DH out for attention, and on occasion she will.

 

As for your daughter make sure she is not accidentally hurting or pressuring the dog into being affectionate when you are not looking, but assuming she isn't don't encourage her to make eye contact with the dog. Her ignoring the dog is actually the best thing for their relationship. If she wants to interact she can toss treats near the dog whenever they are in the same room, or if she isn't interested you can give the dog a high value treat or play a super fun game of catch or tug whenever she is around your daughter. Eventually she will realize that being around your daughter means good things are going to happen.

 

I hope I was able to help.

[GentleLake]

Big difference between the different types of growling, as Cass points out.

[chene]

Okay, now I'm even more perplexed. You say not to correct her when she growls but yesterday when I let her bark and growl at the kids on the lawn, more than one person told me I shouldn't let her do that as it may escalate. Which is it?

 

Neither. Calmly redirect her and remove her from the situation if necessary. If she ever doesn't bark or growl (or anything of the sort) when she sees your son praise her like it's a huge deal (and it is).

[moosikins]

Dogs are super adaptive, they just take time! She'll adjust to your daughter eventually when she realizes that she doesn't intend to interact. And perhaps she was abused by a similar looking male or someone with a gruff voice so she'll have to relearn to trust, figure out that your son is kind, and your home with both of them in it is her safe place.

[Laurelin]

Hank came from a kill shelter. He was only there a month and not 7 but it definitely took about 2-3 months before everything was settling in with him in the household. The first 3 weeks to a month were pretty difficult and he is an exceptionally well balanced, confident dog. The first few weeks luckily I had people remind me how new I was to him and to cut him some extra slack because he had really JUST been rescued out of that shelter. It helped... With him it was more that he was so incredibly wild and hyperactive and would not ever leave the other animals alone. I had to have him leash tied to me indoors and outdoors for 2 weeks just getting everyone used to each other. The resident dogs hated him and he would not leave them alone.

 

But I found once he got some GOOD, regular energy outlets that helped. About 2 months in I realized I wasn't having to manage every little thing he did. 3 months in I realized he wasn't tormenting the other dogs. Last night he was actually cuddling with one of the dogs who was terrified of him when I first got him. He's turning into a spectacular dog. Truly a gem and easy to live with.

 

It will get better! It just takes time, consistency, and patience. It may take longer since your girl is so shut down. I can't blame her. Shelters are horrible places to have to live in for a long time and 7 months is a long, long time. Poor thing. I used to work in a shelter and the BCs were among the dogs that did the worst in that environment. Even pulling Hank (who is definitely not a BC) it reminded me how bad it was. So loud, cramped, smelly... Just not a good place for any dog. I wanted to go crazy after about 15 minutes there and it breaks my heart to think of him there a whole month. I can't even imagine 7 months!