Problem with 'self gratification'

[Thready]

Hi, This is my first post here and I am hoping someone will be able to empathise with and offer suggestions for my problem.

 

My male BC is just 2 years old and is a pet rather than working dog. He gets plenty of exercise and is generally a happy and healthy lad.

 

As I am not intending competing him I have kept his training focussed on the areas that I need him to have such as stay, wait, come, give, sit, down, over etc and we practice these on our walks and I have absolutely no doubt that he has these completely nailed down.

 

However, he has a terrible willful streak and will sometimes choose when to actually obey. Predominantly this manifests itself when we are on our walks and he decides he doesn't want to come home yet - bearing in mind that this is often following a 2 hour off lead walk along the beach and cliffs with him running free, swimming, playing chase with other dogs, so I can hardly be accused of not exercising sufficiently. 95% of the time, when I call him to come, he will obey and I clip on his lead, the rest of the time he will just turn tail and take himself back down to the beach, or across a field.

 

Obviously this is problematic and potentially dangerous, When he does eventually come back I have never reprimanded him but, although he isn't taking off as often as he used to, it is still too often.

 

Throughout all of our walks I practice recall, sometimes clipping on the lead for a brief time before releasing him again [my way of re-assuring that recall does not mean the end of his fun] and until we are almost back to the car he obeys very well.

 

My main observation is that he is totally disinterested in any reward when he is in this mood, I swear I could have a huge steak anf he wouldn't return for it and he doesn't appear to be motivated by pleasing me, when I do recall [or any training] he will take his treat but is already focussed on what HE is going to do next rather that what I tell him to do. He is as bad with fetch and give with his toys and balls, he will only give them when he want to, again, an open hand with a piece of chicken does not entice him to give, and when he finally does give the toy his focus is on it being re-thrown for him rather than collecting the chicken and being praised [all other times he is incredibly food focussed].

 

I know he is still a youngster, but really want to have the confidence that he will obey all of the time not just some of the time.

 

I don't want to have to keep him on lead for our walks as that isn't fun for either of us and he won't get to stretch his legs and run free.

 

Sorry for the length of this, hoping for some tips.

[ourwully]

Hi Thready

I am experiencing much the same thing with my 15 month old Juno. She seems to know all the commands and is a wonderful dog almost all the time but every once and a while she totally ignores me. It is very frustrating as I have been doing a lot of training with her. Because she is getting better all the time I was hoping maturity would help but hearing that your lad is two I might have to step things up as I too worry about dangerous situations. Just recently I purchased the video Totally Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson but most of the things on the video I was already doing. I will be interested to see what suggestions you are given. The one thing that has been on my mind ever since I got Juno is the effectiveness of positive training. I have remained positive 99% of the time with Juno and overall I am really happy with the results and especially happy with Juno's general nature. She is such a good dog but at the times she ignores me I really wonder what positive things I can do to correct the situation. I wonder if some dogs just take a long time to get it together completely. Anyway good luck. I will be following your progress.

Cheers

Bill

[Smalahundur]

I know he is still a youngster, but really want to have the confidence that he will obey all of the time not just some of the time.

Hm, I consider a two year old dog as grown up . Should be past the stage of the "well it is just a youngster/puppy" excuses.

 

My only "tip" would be ( my excuses if I sound like capt. obvious here) always always enforce your command. If your dog starts to take certain commands as "optional", stop giving them unless you are certain you can enforce them.

 

Each time he gets away with disobedience you have enforced the lesson that your commands are not commands at all, but at the most requests....

[Gideon's girl]

Snap the leash on before you are heading back to the car and then play some more with the leash on. Heading back towards the car does mean the play is going to end, so your "come" can not be associated with that.

[CptJack]

What Gideon girl said. NEVER, ever, use a recall to bring the dog to you for anything negative. Recall is the one command I am 300% serious about making sure is never blown off. I mean I'm consistent with all of them and consistency is important, and I have a number of other words that mean 'dog, bring yourself to me' with varying degrees of seriousness, but if I tell them to COME, they need to get to me.

To that end, if I ask for a come, it's for something they see as good, just to stack that deck against the rare time it isn't. That means to end play, clip nails, give them a bath, anything they might not love? I go get the dog, or use a less imperative command (C'mere - which means finish up and come to me in a casual, leisurely manner, or maybe 'Bye' which means if you're not coming with me I'm leaving your butt here (they're velcro - they don't want this), or maybe something else I'm not thinking of right now).

 

For giving you the toy there are a bunch of things you can do that don't rely on food. The toy has the value for him in play. So make it go 'dead' (Ie: grab it, hold it, lightly hold his collar so he can't tug, and wait for him to let go - then praise and throw again), take two identical toys and switch out throwing them, whatever it takes to get it out of his mouth.

 

My other piece of advice is when he is in that MOOD? Don't even ask. You know he's going to blow you off. Don't set the scenario up to frustrate you and him. If he's pulling that insist (gently) on him doing the last thing you asked and then simply end play or training time. Try again later. If he learns he needs to do what you want to engage with you/play, he's going to do it.

 

Age dogs become reliable really just varies, but you have to stay consistent the whole way through anyway. The three youngsters here now, Kylie was consistent and reliable and mature brained by about 6 months. Molly's... honestly never not been (she was a strange young puppy). Thud, the GSD mix, only stopped acting like a jerk at about 18 months.

[JohnC]

I agree that you shouldn't use a recall command. I use “Let's Go”, which translates to “We're going to do something else fun”. For example, when I leave the dog park, I often take a short on-leash walk in the area. And sometimes return to the off-leash area to play some more. Occasionally, I take a drive to another area and walk him there for a bit. Or stop at the pet store, which is always fun. So when he hears “Let's Go”, he's always curious and excited about what we might do next.

 

Also, have you tried disappearing when he doesn't pay attention? Basically, make him think that if he doesn't come along, you might just leave anyway. I always do this with young pups and it works really well. You want to make it his job to keep track of you and stay with you instead of the other way around.

[Thready]

Thanks for the replies. Just to confirm, I never recall him for negative things and as Captain Jack has suggested, when I see that he is going to ignore me I don't use the 'here' command as I don't want him to think it is optional, indeed no command has ever been optional, I very much believe that if I give a command, even the unintentional utterings we all sometimes make, if he doesn't obey then I stop whatever I am doing and focus on him and repeat the command until he obeys, so again, we don't have a history of him 'getting away' with things.

 

He has started to 'check' and not run full pelt when I call no, but he doesn't halt completely and is still difficult to catch.

 

I now recall him and clip him on the 10m extender lead [so he does have freedom to play] earlier to avoid him having visual clues as to when home time is, but he is a collie and has started bolting earlier.

 

Ignoring him and heading away from him doesn't work either, 99.9% of the time he has found something to play with [back to the self gratification] and ignores where I am going until it suits him.

 

We have just got back from our afternoon walk and he was perfectly behaved and came immediately and sat at my side when I called him, but tonight could be a different tale,

 

As I say it is getting better and he is by far the most willful BC I have ever had.

 

I really appreciate the replies and am finding them interesting.

[Thready]

John, sorry, we cross posted, yes I use 'this way' rather than 'here when it's not an imperitive that he come, and often hid from him if he ignored me as a puppy, still do to a degree, but I worry about going to far in case he really does lose me and tries to head home.

 

Believe me I have had some strange looks when I've been hiding behind trees at 6.00am !!!

[CptJack]

I am not trying to be critical at all, I'm really not but this:

 

repeat the command until he obeys

 

Is probably part of your problem. If you say it once and he doesn't obey and then keep using the world/command you're basically burning it. Ie: It becomes jabber to him, or the command stops being sit and starts to become 'sit, sit, sit, SIIIIIT, SIT!' You really have to stop, repeat once to make sure he's heard you, and then if he doesn't lure it or whatever it takes but just repeating the command until he does it is a bad idea.

 

Honestly, if he's bolting right now you need to get him on a long line. When you tell him it's time to come, step on or grab and gently reel him in. Remove the option of self-reinforcing. It sucks, it's not fun, I had to go back to that for a bit when my GSD X was a teenager and being a jerk, but every time he successfully bolts away and has more fun he's got incentive to do it again. You have to stop that from happening, even if it means he loses the privilege of being totally free from leashes and lines for a while.

 

(This also works for a dog who wants to leave a training session at some point rather than continue to engage - I mean end the session but the option of just walking out shouldn't be there..)

 

 

He's probably too old and too independent/confident for practiced insecurity to work at this stage (the hiding) as a motivator. Great when started as a puppy or a very velcro dog but doesn't sound like it will work here.

[Thready]

Sorry, when I said repeat until he obeys, I really didn't mean just standing there and repeating, not reall a problem now but when he was still a puppy things like get down, if not obeyed would be repeated whilst putting his feet back on the floor etc,

 

My error in knowing what I mean but not being clear in type

[CptJack]

In that case, just get him on a long line, keep being consistent, keep demanding performance, keep making things rewarding and keep waiting. Dogs vary in when they 'get it' and stop being butt-heads, and there's not much you can do to hurry that process along but the above. Of my three youngsters Kylie was reliable around 6 months. Molly has never bee UNrelaible. Thud? 18-20 maybe even 22 months. All kept maturing and getting better beyond that (and since the oldest is not yet 3 still are) but the age I stopped wanting to strangle them varied by a year or more.

 

Same owner, same training methods, same consistency, but very, very different dogs.

[notailabigail]

He sounds like when he takes off, he's looking for the party back at the beach or with other dogs. When you call him, do you usually reward him with food? Maybe he would find toys more reinforcing.

 

Have you taught him how to play tug? I mean tug with rules - he takes it only when you ask, gives it when you ask (either by trading for food at first or making the toy 'dead' until he lets go, then game on again), and teeth on skin = game over. Teach him that game, and then practice lots and lots of recalls to an exciting game of tug (restrained recalls are even better).

 

I've had dogs who will spit out food, even 'high value' food, when out somewhere exciting, but they don't ever (well, never say never!) turn down a fun game with me...

 

ETA: I want that recall to be dog *racing* to me as fast as they can. If I get an 'ok, here I come, I guess..you called me..." kind of trotting response, that tells me that I need to work on the recall in lower distractions again because I *know* that won't hold up to much of anything.

[CptJack]

I want that recall to be dog *racing* to me as fast as they can. If I get an 'ok, here I come, I guess..you called me..." kind of trotting response, that tells me that I need to work on the recall in lower distractions again because I *know* that won't hold up to much of anything.

 

 

Also this. Recall should be the most highly, heavily, rewarded thing for a dog. A signal that something REALLY amazing is about to happen, and they come tearing toward you like they were shot out of a canon.

 

I'll also second trying using toy rewards. Molly's way more inclined to tug in high stress (positive or negative) scenarios than she is to eat. Or fetch, if you're in a scenario where sending the dog OUT before them coming back isn't dangerous and that isn't always the case.

[Thready]

Captain Jack - yep, I think you might be right. We had a struggle when he was little with him wanting to be all alpha, all of the usual deterrants [coins in a can, wooden spoon banged on chair arm etc] sent him wild and he just wanted to attack them, I've never seen him cower at anything and he has never cried or howled, even first night home and in a crate - Mr Independant is the best name for Merlin. Commands while on the lead are obeyed, but I maybe need to do some more on lead training?

 

Nutty Mutts, I stopped games of tug and rough play as soon as I realised he was quite alpha, as all my reading at that time advised against it, but I'll re-introduce tug games now and see hoe they o.

[notailabigail]

I don't play rough with my dogs (simply because I don't like it myself) but any games that have clear rules (that you set) can be fantastic motivators. I especially like tug because it gives the dog a controlled outlet and because I use it to teach a super solid 'drop it' that can then be used with all kinds of high value items.

 

There are a whoooole lot of reinforcing things out there in the world for dogs - things that we can't control like bunnies, other dogs, etc. etc., as you know. In situations where you're 'competing' against all of those things for your dog's attention, thinking about it as "my dog must obey my command" will get you much less, imo, than thinking about what you can do to make the dog *want* to respond.

 

The fact that he never cowers at anything is great; I'd rather train a confident dog than a fearful one!

[CptJack]

My GSD-X is... something. He's a GSD X some LGD (Probably Pyr) and he is exactly what you would expect that mix to be: huge, high energy, high drive, demanding hard-headed, protective, independent, loud, and was overly enthused with using his teeth for just about eternity. If someone asked me to put together a combination of breed traits to make a difficult dog, he's just about what I would have come up with. If someone offered me another dog that was magically just like him, but I had to go through the first 18 months of his life all over again, I would run away screaming.

However, he's a really great dog - and I mean really, really, amazingly great.

 

What worked for him was the combination of a few things, and I'm sharing with you so take what's useful and leave the rest:

 

Time. Okay you can't leave this one but he was really slow to mature. He's still not mature. I don't expect him to be entirely mature until 3, at least. Molly (the BC) is more mature at 8 months old than he is at 2+.

 

Adjusting my expectations. I have EXPECTATIONS!!! for my dogs, and that was true of him, too. I kept expecting, for some stupid reason, for him to be like my other dogs. That is to CARE about my pain, tears, frustration. I also expected him to care what I wanted just because it was what I wanted.

 

He is not that dog. He is never going to be that dog. He is never going to give me ANYTHING, much less his best, unless I'm giving to him. That didn't mean I bribed him with food all the time, or even rewards or praise but changed how I interacted with him. Which feeds in to:

 

Changing the way I interacted with him. This is really, really fundamental but my basic training methods and interactions with my dogs is often fairly casual most of the time/outside dedicated dog ACTIVITIES (training classes, dog specific walks, ball, whatever). They're around, I'm around, I do things with them while I do other things and the other dogs are happy with that. TV commercial breaks become training sessions, I do laundry and they participate or learn how to do something and life is good.

Not for Thud. If I am not giving Thud ALL of my attention and focus and energy, he is not giving me ANY of his. He'll tool around and be well behaved in the house but he's not going to learn anything while I'm waiting on my show to start again or surfing the web or waiting for a text. If we're out on a walk and I'm trying to have a conversation, he's going to disengage and start pulling, sniffing, chasing rabbits, or otherwise check out. When I'm 'on' he's incredible - and I mean amazing - when I'm off, he has no use for me, doesn't care, is done and out and forget it.

 

Changing my training methods. I thought I knew how to train dogs. I thought I knew it all. I've had dogs my whole life. I had to change what I did with Thud and get creative and use some things I ordinarily wouldn't have even thought of. I also had to give up some pride and use some things I thought were lazy or just didn't like. Walks happened on a 6" long training tab, so he couldn't physically disengage from me. I used things like roughhousing with me, jumping on me and being released to chase a rabbit as rewards, instead of my default food or a ball toss.

 

I had to use long lines for anything that was typically off leash, which I freaking HATED. I'm glad to say they're gone now but that killed my pride and just generally bugged me.

 

But mostly... I had to change how I thought about him and working with him. For a long time I described training him as wrestling with an octopus. That was because I kept saying "Why won't you work for me?" Well, the answer to that is he's himself and he isn't working FOR anyone, but he'll sure as heck work WITH me. If I work with him. If I expect subservience, then I'm just crap out of luck.

He's... not that dog.

[GentleLake]

I can't agree with this lat post from CptJack more!

 

Tansy's that dog who's, well, not that dog. She's 3 years old and I'm still in many ways treating her like a puppy because she just doesn't respond to training the way my other dogs, mostly border collies, have. (She's a lurcher; quite possibly half border collie but also half sighthound of unknown breed).

 

Good trainers know that they have to adjust their methods, expectations, rewards, etc. for the dog at hand. Some are easier than others. Some are real challenges.

 

You have to work with the dog you have, not the dog you wish you had. You might want to look into Jane Killion's book When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs. You might find some helpful information there.

 

Good luck.

[Thready]

Lot of food for thought there Cap and a lot of it sounds a lot like both my attitude and Merlin's, I want him to want to please me but know that I can't make him want to, he has to get to that stage by himself but hopefuly with my gentle help and persuasion, I do think that Merlin is still quite immature but I can see gradual improvements and a gradual calming in his general demeanour, the day that he actually goes up and down stairs at anything less than full pelt will be a day to celebrate :-)

 

I know that he is healthy and well looked after, believe that he is happy and I may not have got everything right but I am always looking to improve and the fact that I am here and looking for suggestions can only be a positive.

 

You guys have been great x

[CptJack]

I have no doubt that you guys will get to somewhere good, where you're both be your best.

 

I'll be honest and say Thud still does not care about pleasing me. I don't think Thud will ever care about pleasing me. He is not a biddable dog.

He is, however, an absolutely and totally *loyal* dog, a committed dog, an enthusiastic dog, a dog who loves me obviously and with his whole heart, and a dog who has taught me a lot about real partnership between a person and a dog, and about trust between the pair.

It's hard, exhausting, pain in the butt.

 

But man it's a thrill, and a rush, and touching and satisfying and rewarding.

And he's changed how I see dogs and my interactions with them forever, and I will forever be a BETTER dog person and trainer for him.

 

Glad I could help - and heck writing that out and getting my thoughts and feelings in order helped me too. So, thanks.