Guaging fetch training progress

[sdmike26]

Sorry for the long post, but I think there a lot of people out there who could really benefit from a more comprehensive border collie fetch topic for those of us who are not partaking in herding or agility.

 

I'd like to start by saying I'm new to the forums and new to dog training (yes I am aware border collies are not recommended for first time dog owners, but I have no shortage of time, energy, and love to do devote to my puppy). My puppy is 7 months old now and I have been working on a "true fetch" (opposed to a simple get and retrieve) for a few months.

 

It would be great to hear from people who have struggled to teach fetch to a border collie, but were able to successfully accomplish it. I have seen a couple posts on the topic fetch with some great advice and tips. But I'm having a lot of troubling guaging my success with training at this point.

 

I have spoken with numerous of border collies owners in my area and everyone says the exact same thing. "My dog loves the ball/frisbee, focuses intensely while I'm holding it, chases it down as soon as it's thrown/tossed, but never comes back with it." This seems to be the quintessential border collie fetching instinct.

 

Things I tried that failed:

• tug: using his favorite toys for fetch that he loves to play tug with, he enjoys tug but is perfectly happy to just take his toy and go lay in the corner and chew on it, plus he is the extreme opposite of possesive, no matter how crazy he is tugging if I utter "let go" he immediately releases and takes 2 steps back, I originally taught that at 10 weeks old using the tug game as a reward
• treats: rewarding with treats upon returning the ball, this worked great for "bring" but it simply does not translate to a play mode "fetch", they are clearly 2 very different behaviors and mindsets for him
• chase: running away from him and calling him as soon as he picks up the ball, this has the appearance of working in the sense that he turns to me and starts running towards me and sometimes actually dropped it within a couple feet of me, but after about 5 weeks I saw absolutely no improvement, I always got really excited and praised when he dropped it near me, and I would toss it again immediately to keep the game fast pased and fun, sometimes I still use this technique if he stops and gets distracted by something in the distance, but it did not work to reliably teach him to bring it back every time, nor did it appear to be improving

 

For me, the most success was to use 2 squeaky tennis balls, starting inside my apartment. As soon as he picked up the first one that I threw, I would start squeaking the one in my hand and he would run over to me, he naturally dropped the one in his mouth when I showed him the second one. I'm not sure if this mattered but I never let him have the tennis balls by himself, they are only used while we are playing together.

 

The challenge now is generalizing this to outdoors in the grass and further distances. This where I'm really struggling and unsure if I'm at a deadend. My first issue is that my puppy loves to eat grass, dirt, and sand. So if we're on any of those surfaces I can only play fetch with him for about 5 minutes at best before he becomes much more interested in eating the ground. And his drive to eat these things is much greater after playing fetch for 5 minutes than it is if we're just walking around, which seems kind of peculiar. I have tried playing on pavement a bit but he still seems to get bored of the game after 5-10 minutes.

 

I'd love to hear if others have faced any similar struggles, and/or any suggestions to solve the issue. If I just persist, will he learn to enjoy the game more for longer periods? Is the grass, dirt, and sand eating just a puppy thing that will likely pass? He has only done this in the last month or so. It's almost as if he is saying "fine if I have to play fetch, then I'm going to eat dirt too."

 

Thanks for reading, I appreciate any advice.

 

EDIT: Oops, I misspelled "gauging" in the topic title and I'm not able to fix it by editing...

[ourwully]

This isn't a lot of help but here is my experience with fetch. When Juno was about 3 months old she would fetch a frisbee as long as I would throw it, then around 6 months she decided it was more fun chewing it. She is just over a year now and still won't return a frisbee. I haven't really worked on this because she will return a ball every time. We even play a game of catch where I tell her to go back (about 15 feet) and I throw the ball to her so that it bounces in front of her and she catches it in the air. I tire of this before she does. I should mention I always give her a treat for returning the ball. I should also mention that unless I give her a treat I won't be getting the ball. Watch what you train! Lately we have been having great fun with sticks in the woods. She returns the stick every time but no way she will give it to me even if I offer a treat. All she wants to do is tug. That's okay with me but I am going to work on having her give it to me for more generic reasons.. I'm not exactly sure how I am going to do this other than waiting her out because I know she wants to keep playing.

 

Cheers

Bill

[dmadrid]

Interesting that you know so many people that have the same issue with fetch and their border collies.... I wouldn't have considered that a problem at all, based on my ow sample set....

 

Anyway... I just taught my young pup to retrieve, so I thought I'd share... You said that you used tug, but you didn't mention exactly how you used it in your fetch training.... I do something like this: throw the ball, dogs runs after the ball and grabs it. Meanwhile, I have a different toy in hand, ready to go. Once she has the ball, I call her and make a fuss about the other toy I'm holding. She runs back to me and we play. Sometimes she remembers to bring the ball back, but at first she often drops it. No big deal. We play, I go get the ball, we repeat. I also encourage her to come with me when she already has a toy in her mouth. Whenever she does this, I make a big deal of it, and we have an awesome play session. If she grabs a toy and runs off with it, I grab a different toy and start "playing" with it myself. That always works to get her attention... She wants to be where the fun is at.

 

Using games like this, it only took Wren a week or so to figure out that playing with me was even more fun than playing alone. And from there it was a short step to bringing me the ball or toy so we could play together...

 

I would add that 5-10 minutes of straight fetching (if he's running full out) is actually pretty intense.... He probably needs to take a bit of a break, which might lead to the sniffing....

[Maxi]

! Lately we have been having great fun with sticks in the woods. She returns the stick every time but no way she will give it to me even if I offer a treat. All she wants to do is tug. That's okay with me but I am going to work on having her give it to me for more generic reasons.. I'm not exactly sure how I am going to do this other than waiting her out because I know she wants to keep playing.

 

 

Bill, I don't want to be a killjoy, but be very careful about the type of stick you use.. A friend of mine threw a stick and it landed with the point stickng out out of some mud .. his 2 year old lab ran to get it and end up spearing himself through the back of his mouth Lots of surgery ..and lucky to be alive.

[Sue R]

Sticks can be a very dangerous toy, as Maxi points out. Sharp points, splinters, etc. At the risk of belaboring a point, I would not throw sticks for a dog.

 

That said, I have a couple of dogs that do pick up and carry sticks. I do not discourage or stop that behavior unless one picks up a stick that I feel is, by its nature, too hazardous, or if the dog picks it up by the end (the end in his mouth).

 

As Maxi indicated, running onto or grabbing/holding the end in the mouth are the primary ways a dog can get injured, and stick injuries can be very, very nasty.

[ourwully]

Thank you for the stick advice. It is much appreciated. I have been pretty careful about the sticks I use but now that I think more about it I see that it is probably not a great idea to throw as many as I have been throwing. The odds are not good. I guess I'll have to start carrying a ball or some other fetch toy with me.

 

Thanks

Bill

[GentleLake]

I also had a dog who speared himself on a stick that landed sticking up out of the ground. No fun. Lots of blood, drama and a trip to the vet. We were more fortunate than the Lab mentioned above -- no surgery and Mirk healed well -- but learned a valuable lesson. Now the only time I'll throw a stick is into the water.

 

Good for you, Bill, for heeding sage advice.

[Sue R]

 

Good for you, Bill, for heeding sage advice.

Yes.

[sdmike26]

Thanks for the words of caution about the sticks everyone.

 

Interesting that you know so many people that have the same issue with fetch and their border collies.... I wouldn't have considered that a problem at all, based on my ow sample set....

Anyway... I just taught my young pup to retrieve, so I thought I'd share... You said that you used tug, but you didn't mention exactly how you used it in your fetch training.... I do something like this: throw the ball, dogs runs after the ball and grabs it. Meanwhile, I have a different toy in hand, ready to go. Once she has the ball, I call her and make a fuss about the other toy I'm holding. She runs back to me and we play. Sometimes she remembers to bring the ball back, but at first she often drops it. No big deal. We play, I go get the ball, we repeat. I also encourage her to come with me when she already has a toy in her mouth. Whenever she does this, I make a big deal of it, and we have an awesome play session. If she grabs a toy and runs off with it, I grab a different toy and start "playing" with it myself. That always works to get her attention... She wants to be where the fun is at.

Using games like this, it only took Wren a week or so to figure out that playing with me was even more fun than playing alone. And from there it was a short step to bringing me the ball or toy so we could play together...

I would add that 5-10 minutes of straight fetching (if he's running full out) is actually pretty intense.... He probably needs to take a bit of a break, which might lead to the sniffing....

 

Glad to hear it's not the case for all of them. And thanks a lot for sharing your success! How old is your puppy? I was using the tug toy itself for the fetch, rather than using a ball and tug toy separately. I can definitely see how your method would work well. It gets them in the pattern of going to the ball and then returning back to you (and enjoying doing it). I will definitely give that a shot.

 

And yes it 5-10 mins of straight fetching but he doesn't run full out because I don't throw it very far. He doesn't act very tired, i.e. not breathing heavily or laying down. He also doesn't seem to regain interest if I let him rest for a few minutes.

 

 

 

 

This isn't a lot of help but here is my experience with fetch. When Juno was about 3 months old she would fetch a frisbee as long as I would throw it, then around 6 months she decided it was more fun chewing it. She is just over a year now and still won't return a frisbee. I haven't really worked on this because she will return a ball every time. We even play a game of catch where I tell her to go back (about 15 feet) and I throw the ball to her so that it bounces in front of her and she catches it in the air. I tire of this before she does. I should mention I always give her a treat for returning the ball. I should also mention that unless I give her a treat I won't be getting the ball. Watch what you train! Lately we have been having great fun with sticks in the woods. She returns the stick every time but no way she will give it to me even if I offer a treat. All she wants to do is tug. That's okay with me but I am going to work on having her give it to me for more generic reasons.. I'm not exactly sure how I am going to do this other than waiting her out because I know she wants to keep playing.

 

Cheers

Bill

 

Yep my puppy was exactly the same with the frisbee. He would bring it back (or at least run around with it) when he was little. But lately he would prefer to just destroy it. I've mainly been sticking with balls for now.

[waffles]

If you want to build drive for any game you need to end it before the dog does. Throw the ball a few times the call the game. Next day, same thing. Leave him wanting more. Him checking out is him telling you he is bored with the activity or possibly stressed by it.

 

You can teach the dog a drop and give command separate from fetch. Then while fetching ask him to drop or give (I teaxch drop as drop what you have and give as put in my hand).

 

And I agree, 5-10 min for a puppy is adequate for fetching. Remember that you'll have to tire the dog out in other ways too. Fetch is pretty mindless in itself. Engage his mind in training - practical and "party" tricks, scent classes, agility classes, puzzle games/toys etc.

 

Good luck and have fun with your pup!

[alligande]

When we got Brody at 3. He would bring the ball/frisbee/toy back 2 or 3 times and then expect the humans to retrieve it. He had trained his former family really well It took a few months but we changed the game, we just stopped playing, on a walk we picked the toy up, at home we just left it, and gradually we got a dog who played fetch. Rievaulx who is now 5 has always played a proper game of fetch, we started playing as puppy just rolling toys along the floor. I would keep the games really short, if your dog is finding the environment more interesting, maybe 2 or 3 throws and then put the toy away, you want him to want to play the game and find it exciting, so limit how much he gets to play, and leave him wanting more.

[CptJack]

We started out with very, very short sessions when she was tiny so she always wanted to do MORE (like maybe 2-3 ball rolls at first), and building up duration of the game. Also lots of "YES!" "YAY!" and "GOOD JOB!" parties when it got back to us. This was working with a pup who wanted to retrieve, though.

The only other thing is similar to alligande: If the ball/toy doesn't come back to us, the game is over. That means if she leaves it, drops it, we pick it up and leave. If she just starts tearing around with it in her mouth, we tell her 'bye' and walk away. She knows what Bye means, so if she hears it she comes tearing after us, usually still carrying the toy. At that point we make her drop it in the toy box by the door and come the rest of the way in.

 

Though honestly some toys? Specific ones? It's a free for all and she can tear around with them and play chase instead of fetch if she wants. It's just that htose toys aren't frisbees or balls. They're stuffed tugs and the like. Different game, different rules. They're bright enough to get that, easily.

[spaceapple]

I have no advice to offer since I'm pretty sure my border collie was born knowing how to play fetch. In my experience it is all too easy to create a MONSTER. To Kate, any time is fetch time. Any time, all the time, 24/7 fetch time. "Will you throw my ball now? How about now? Ok, I'll ask again in 10 seconds. You look busy; maybe you could throw this ball for me? I'll put it a little closer so you can reach it better. Is now good? I'll put it right beside you. I'll put it on your leg. I'll put it right here in your crotch. Now I'll just stare at you until you throw it. Aaaand throw it. I'm still here, waiting for you to throw it. My ball. For me. One two three THROW IT."

 

So...I guess my advice is: be careful what you wish for.

[chene]

I have no advice to offer since I'm pretty sure my border collie was born knowing how to play fetch. In my experience it is all too easy to create a MONSTER. To Kate, any time is fetch time. Any time, all the time, 24/7 fetch time. "Will you throw my ball now? How about now? Ok, I'll ask again in 10 seconds. You look busy; maybe you could throw this ball for me? I'll put it a little closer so you can reach it better. Is now good? I'll put it right beside you. I'll put it on your leg. I'll put it right here in your crotch. Now I'll just stare at you until you throw it. Aaaand throw it. I'm still here, waiting for you to throw it. My ball. For me. One two three THROW IT."

 

So...I guess my advice is: be careful what you wish for.

 

I solved this by making the rule that only I get to initiate play. He gets one warning. So if he comes up with a ball and sticks it on my lap, I say "no" and give it back to him. If he does it a second time it gets taken away and put up somewhere he can't get it. He learned pretty quickly. I know some people just don't let their dogs have balls unless they've initiated and are playing fetch, but I find Aed still likes to play with his ball on his own sometimes.