What Is Your First Thought When You See These Ears?

[MossyOak]

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[CptJack]

The thing for me (I know - no one asked) is that all it really takes to have a perfectly decent conversation about those things is to say, or maybe reiterate, that you realize it's irrelevant BUT.

We had several pages of comments here discussing the looks we like in dogs with only one minor wobble off topic, because it was stated and recognized early that, yeah, it's not important and you wouldn't choose a dog based on appearance BUT.

 

So it didn't derail.

Should such a disclaimer be necessary, here? Maybe, maybe not, but it's not like it's hard to prevent just by recognizing where you are and the prevailing culture of the board.

[kingfisher7151]

MossyOak, I guess that's just where I wonder how effective that is. "There are other places for you and your talk, go there instead". Where else are they going to learn about the working dog culture? Nowhere else will they find people as passionate about the breed as a working animal. And it's easy to develop a thick skin when you see the reason to do so. But these people don't yet understand the beauty of a working dog, they take such attacks on their personal dog and leave before they get the chance to soak in the incredible knowledge and experience found on this board. The negative comments found are usually pretty profound, I think that's why it's hard for people to overcome them. Hearing "I really don't like white headed dogs" when you have one is fairly easy to take, but hearing "your dog is the result of poor breeding practices, so the rest doesn't matter" is a pretty harsh statement to just let roll off.

[CptJack]

I actually meant that the thread started to derail briefly about why it doesn't matter what dogs look like and preferences were just for how a dog works. Adding in recognition that that doesn't matter/you wouldn't buy for breeding again it's just having a preference for a look and recognizing that breeding for that isn't desirable stopped that train well.

Once people know you know, this kind of heavy handed hammering tends not to happen, regardless of where your current dog came from.

[Shetlander]

Ok, I went back to read all the posts in this thread because I was confused about apparently missing vicious comments and jabs. I still don't see any. This seems like a mild conversation. It certainly is not the first or tenth or probably twentieth thread on ears. AKC came up in reference to a philosophy of judging on appearance when there was a post hoping the pup's ears would not end up both pricked. A very small side discussion ensued, but nothing especially heated. As MossyOak pointed out, the majority of comments were cute puppy, cute ears, I like these sort of ears, you end up liking whatever ears you get.

 

So I remain confused how this thread is an example of anti-AKC comments/unwelcoming attitudes to owners of non working bred dogs.

[GentleLake]

hearing "your dog is the result of poor breeding practices, so the rest doesn't matter" is a pretty harsh statement to just let roll off.

 

Whoa! No one ever said anything even remotely like that in this thread. And I'm the one who made the "so called negative statements" and I never said anything negative about the dog or its breeding.

 

If anyone cares to go back and look (thanks Liz for doing just that!), what I said was "I think her ears in the last picture are beautiful! Having a preference is one thing. Not accepting a border collie's look because it's not what you envision for the breed is buying into the ACK appearance standard philosophy."

 

It was a general comment, not a criticism of an individual, on a way of thinking about dogs in general and border collies in particular.

 

Later, when the OP said "We also don't accept smooth coat dogs in the show ring..." (emphasis added), it was reasonable to assume that the OP has an interest in a conformation philosophy. I responded by explaining the difference in this Board's philosophy in contrast to that.

 

There was no rancor, no name calling on my part. I'm sorry that for some it caused offense, but none was intended.

[Sue R]

Thanks to Liz and Roxanne because I certainly did not find this topic an "attack" on anyone or their dog(s). I felt things were mentioned (and I don't see anything wrong with that as I have already mentioned that that can be useful with regards to new or lurking folks, so that they don't get the wrong impression of the philosophy here) but not that there was any nastiness.

 

But that can be my point of view since I didn't feel I was at the receiving end of any supposed criticism (well, except for criticism of the anti-AKC stance).

[rushdoggie]

FWIW: these things happen everywhere. I belong to pond forums, aquarium forums, and music forums and theres always something.

 

On the betta forum, the "you will kill your betta fish if you don't put him in a 20 gallon filtered tank alone" people will sometimes jump on a new person who is proud of their one gallon bowl. They don't mean to come off as attacking, and they are right that the fish needs a heater and regular water maintenance (filters and/or regular water changes), and people constantly join and post how their fish is sick and the fins have rot or whatever, which wouldn't happen if they were cared for in the first place. But people are often told at the pet store the one quart vase is a fine home and don't know better. They are hurt that they are "attacked" and the "attacker" doesn't feel like they did, just shared information that is important.

 

We all really are in the same place that we love these dogs, and we agree on the Board's philosophy. On the internet its sometimes hard to see context or intent on comments. I don't think anyone intends to be aggressive or rude.

[MossyOak]

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[Bogwoppit]

FWIW: these things happen everywhere. I belong to pond forums, aquarium forums, and music forums and theres always something.

Oh gosh, this. If I had a penny for every "Why is my goldfish sick? The guy at the pet store said..." thread I've seen erupt into a storm-out argument because the new person got an answer they didn't expect... Well, I'd probably have about £1.75

 

I think that this is a great forum, however the manner in which new folks are greeted is somewhat unique. The members here often want to know about your dog, your motives, what you want out of your life with your dog. In many ways as acutely observant as the border collies. I think for some, this sounding-out can be unnerving or misconstrued as rude. Taking a step back can be hard when opening your personal life to others. And what is more personal than your "family" or dog?

 

For what it's worth, my first topic here was about the colour of dog-butts and it stayed on course. Not my proudest hour, but proof a superficial aesthetics convo can occur.

[Gideon's girl]

I just assumed you had an "interesting" sense of humor.

[Sue R]

[kingfisher7151]

I'm so sorry I sent the wrong vibe, I wasn't really speaking about this thread, certainly not anyone in particular! I was mostly responding to the OP's feelings about the board, and some other circumstance I've seen during my 3 years watching (only one year of participating). I didn't mean to make a fuss, I just wanted to bring up a possible situation. Everyone here is wonderful, and more than knowledgeable. I should learn when to put foot in mouth.

[Maralynn]

 

This is one of those times I wonder if I haven't simply gone beyond my "best if used by" date, become too insensitive to the sensibilities of others (or, to be blunt, become too strident and rude), and should just throw in the towel as so many others have done.

Not wanting to pick on you, Sue, but I think this kind of illustrates what happens. There were two posts made that questioned the 5 or 6 posts the reiterated the same point on ears. And you, a long time well respected forum member, appeared second guess taking part on the thread. So maybe a new person feels the same? I don't think anyone was rude and I think the point is valid and well in keeping with the message of the forum but multiple repititions can still be overwhelming for a newbie. (and I've done the same type of adding "just one more post where the point has been explained 5 times already" multiple times so this is as much rethinking the way I post as anything else)

[GentleLake]

multiple repititions can still be overwhelming for a newbie.

 

On one hand, I think multiple repetitions can be useful, if for no other reason than to confirm that it's a widely held opinion rather than just one person's, which could be a fluke.

 

Oftentimes, too, the reason for the repetitions is that the OPs come back trying to rationalize their stance in the face of opinions that don't agree with their world view. In this case, it really wasn't until the OP came back suggesting a conformation bias in a forum that doesn't adhere to that philosophy that the repetitions began.

 

I'm really not sure how else to convince people that the USBCC and these Boards that we sponsor are opposed to breeding border collies for any reason other than their working ability than to politely explain, often from multiple points of view, that our philosophy is different from the one they're espousing here.

 

If you can offer a reasonable alternative, I'd be more than happy to entertain it.

[juliepoudrier]

At least some discussions of coat color genetics are directly related to health. There's an ongoing Facebook discussion in the BC Pedigree Project discussing white factor and white head, and their relationship to deafness. A question came up about blue eyes, again as they might relate to deafness. So although some color genetics discussions might be completely frivolous, not all are. A deaf working dog isn't very useful and at least some breeders would like to inform themselves about what they can do to avoid the avoidable.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Oh, and I guess I'm part of the terrible "beat the dead horse" crowd. Oh well, if people need to be told it's okay to be disappointed if your pup's ears don't do what you want them to, which was the gist of what I got from the OP, then clearly some of us just need to stick to the working dog topics. In the new year, I think letting the "everyone must be made to feel good about themselves" folks take over isn't a bad thing. It'll save some of us time and energy and probably make lots of folks much happier. And that can't be a bad thing, right?

 

P.S. Sorry to have even tried to justify why one might want to talk about coat color; no doubt that will be seen as offensive to some as well.

 

J.

[Shetlander]

Julie, you are a source of much wisdom and I would be sorry if you stayed only in the working dog topics. I find the wealth of knowledge and experience here very valuable and often thought-provoking. I don't want to only hear from AKC minded folks or those with limited understanding of the breed and it's history. Plus the support and assistance I have received here over the years are greatly appreciated. I say that as an owner of a sports bred dog.

[Maralynn]

I thought I was just giving another perspective. To take or leave.

 

But perhaps it's time for me to take a break for a while since my perspective seems to have offended several people. Sigh

[Shetlander]

Not you too, Mara! This is such a great community with such wonderful people (like you, Mara). I hate seeing long time members feeling misunderstood, unwelcome or frustrated. Maybe we all just need to move on to another topic.

[Jexa]

Hopefully I'm avoiding too much repetition, but I've noticed a trend with these "you meanies hate any dogs that aren't working bred BCs" train wrecks:

 

1- poster makes a statement contrary to the philosophy of these boards

2- long-time, knowledgable poster(s) refer to the "READ THIS FIRST" sticky, explain why the original comment is unpopular here (others, maybe too many (debatable), pile on to agree)

3- OP gets defensive (some more than others), strangely is surprised when people continue to agree with the board's philosophy

4- long time posters continue to reiterate WHY it's important to breed for working ability over appearance. Maybe too many posts, maybe too few. *Generally* everyone does a very good job of being polite and patient, despite having typed the same thing countless other times

5- OP feels arguments are a personal attack on his/her dog, at this point almost all start to lash out, and no matter how civil they may have started the conversation this is where the "you're all just mean" (because we disagree with you?) comments tend to start.

6- long time posters try to reassure OP that they are not personally attacking OP or OP's dog, just the AKC system. OP and OP's dog are more than welcome here, the idea that a border collie is a border collie based on their appearance and should be bred as such is not.

7- OP furiously states that this board is hostile to any border collies not actively used as trialling/working dog, and clearly he/she shouldn't expect a reasonable argument from such rabid elitists. Usually this is the stage the OP leaves in a huff

8- long time posters (and occasionally newer ones with legit questions) continue to debate politely amongst themselves. Usually this involves someone bringing up the "do we really ALL need to tell her she's wrong?" question, good points are brought up on both sides. Topic tends to peter out until the next poster who thinks "they can't REALLY think AKC is bad"

 

Now, here's my issue that I feel doesn't get enough attention in these debaucheries (care to debate that? ) simply because most who respond do themselves own working dogs: almost without fail, these posters claim the boards are hostile to any dog not working bred. As someone who owns two BCs of extremely questionable parentage, I want to reassure any lurkers/newer posters that nothing could be further from the truth.

 

I do not trial. I do not use my dogs for farm work. I was a farm kid, but know almost nothing about using dogs for farm work (we used horses/tractors exclusively). I have no intention of doing any kind of stock work for fun. I already have expensive, time-consuming hobbies! It is probable I will never own a working bred border collie. I have NEVER felt unwelcome here. And I have learned a ton, about stock work, agility, SAR, health issues, genetics, and border collies/dogs in general.

 

Both my border collies came from high kill shelters. If I had to guess, I'd say one was likely the result of a BYB, the other might have been bred for agility. No way of knowing for sure of course. Although I love them more than I can express, they each have quirks that make living with them difficult and are very possibly a result of their (likely) sub-par breeding. For example, the one I believe is sport bred has a VERY low threshold for excitement. I adore this dog, he is my heart, but training him is challenging because he so quickly and easily puts himself over threshold. And once he's there he has a hard time calming down. It's like that very intelligent brain of his temporarily leaves his body.

 

It doesn't mean they're not wonderful dogs. It doesn't mean I don't love them, or that posters on this board look down on me or them for not being working bred. We simply all agree that the only border collies who should be bred are those that will likely improve the breed's intended purpose: working! And DEFINITELY not because they are an unusual color or preferred ear set.

 

Yes mine were rescues but there are many others on this board who simply did not know any better and bought AKC, sport, or BYB border collies. Now they know better. Guess what, they're welcome too!

 

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes if you now know better and learn from them. There is nothing wrong with humility, and a willingness to listen with an open mind to those with far more experience than you.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to reach out to those without working bred dogs who may not have read enough on here to know if this is the place for them.

[GentleLake]

Where's the like button? Jexa, this is a fantastic post. I especially like your spot on synopsis of the progression of the type of discussion we seem to keep having.

 

My current dogs (I used to have working dogs before my life changed drastically and have since gone to rescues), too, are of dubious breeding. Heck, two of them aren't even purebred border collies, though I remain convinced that they're each at least half collie. The third is all border collie and a terrific dog, but he doesn't seem to have a herding gene in his DNA, most likely as a result of color breeding.

 

So, yeah, not everyone here has "just" working border collies. But most of us understand how important it is to preserve the breed as it began.

[Sue R]

No, please don't, Mara. We may not always agree but I respect and (almost always ) agree with you, and do find your posts worthwhile!

[Sue R]

Julie - You know how much I appreciate and respect your expertise, thoughtfulness, and effort in contributing here. I always seek your comments on any topic so I hope you tough out the rough spots and continue. I find you to be one of the most beneficial contributors here, on all relevant topics, so hope you don't limit yourself.

 

PS - When you get frustrated, you get blunt, but only after your point simply has not managed to be understood. At least you don't beat around the bush and leave anything to incorrect interpretation!

[Sue R]

Thank you, Jexa! Maybe your post should be a sticky with the label, "Read this next!"