Donald McCaig Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Dear Doggers, The three males I've seen who were castrated before they started sheepdog training were less keen for the work. After they're well started, no difference. Castrated pet dogs can be confused by intact males and will try to mount them. Pee waddling sounds like too much training pressure. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beach BCs Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have a 9 year old male (neutered around 18 mos) who will attempt to mark every fence post, mailbox and tree in the county. However, he has never attempted to mark indoors. The waddling sounds like a health issue. I would have a chat with your vet. Tex can also be a jerk with other males. Neutering didn't change that. And he still loves the "ladies" and chatters over their scent. Even if you neuter him people will still ask you to breed him and then say what a shame you had him neutered. The subject wont go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I have to agree that the pee waddling doesn't seem normal and I wouldn't consider it marking behavior. If you haven't already, I'd ask your vet about this to be sure he doesn't have a physical problem as Julie suggested or possibly even a UTI. Especially if it's not something he can control, scolding him is likely to make (or perhaps already have made) it even worse. I also agree that neutering him is unlikely to change the other marking behaviors, at least not much. Bodhi was neutered by the rescue when he was about Keeper's age, probably somewhere between 18 and 24 months (possibly a little older, but I really don't think so). He still lifts his leg and he's one of the most dedicated dogs about marking I've ever had . . . well, next to one of my females. So I sincerely doubt neutering will make much of a difference for Keeper, though I suppose it could. Just don't count on it. Also as Julie mentions, I had a male who was neutered at 9 months old (before I knew better) who lifted his leg, marked and tied with bitches in heat. Obviously he was shooting blanks (or more accurately, not shooting at all, but still ineffective) but it didn't stop him from accomplishing sexual behaviors. OTOH, the one dog I kept intact really wasn't all that bad about marking and I could tell him no without a problem. He was, however, pretty miserable when he had to live with a bitch in heat. He was bred twice and was much worse around bitches in heat after that. Honestly, that was the only time he was difficult. I commented all the time that he just wasn't obnoxiously male like most intact males I'd known before him, and most intact border collie males I've known since. So, I'd consider talking to the vet before making any final decisions. Make sure there's nothing going on that's causing the pee waddling. Best wishes as you decide how to proceed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted November 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks for the responses guys! I actually did mention the pee waddling to the vet, and she wasn't alarmed. She said it sounds like sneaky marking. And I do think that's the case, as he never does this indoors or at home. It only happens in places away from the home, and only when he's walking next to me where he knows not to mark. The only reason I isolate it from leg lifting marking is that this isn't a "gonna go find a spot to pee and lift my leg" behavior, it's like he gets a whiff and his brain screams "MARK!!!", against his better judgement. We generally have a horse show a month, and that's really where the problems shows up, as it never happens at home or indoors. That means he won't pee waddle for over a month until we get to a show. That, I think, pretty solidly eliminated a health issue from the question for both me and the vet. And horse shows are COVERED in dog urine. Everyone has a dog, and every one of those dogs has to mark every trash can, fence post, bush, whatever. I probably handled the situation wrong by correcting him in the way I did. Luckily for me, he's not a particularly soft dog. He jumps away after it happens, but it's not a cowering, lick lipping, tail tucking incident. It's just him avoiding the situation when he knows he's going to be told no. I'm trying to see if there's a better way to handle the situation when it occurs. I fully expect him to still mark, I was just crossing my fingers that the hormonal component would be gone, making it a little easier to control the behavior. Maybe I'll have to try a belly band. He'll have to stay on leash, but maybe a couple wet ones will change his mind a touch. I'd love to get him on a verbal command, and I might pursue that. But it'd have to have parameters, such as the command only applies when he's on leash or in a heel, as he's off leash all day when I'm at home working the horses. I'll have to tinker with that. I think the iffiness with other dogs is a bigger issue. He's very clear about his problem only being with intact males. He couldn't give a damn about neutered males. That's really the thing I'd like to stop. He's exceedingly easy to live with intact, but that'll change if he decides to be ugly to the incoming puppy. Ultimately, if nothing changes, that's quite fine. But then it leads me to "why neuter if it won't change anything?"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Sadly, there's really no way to accurately predict whether neutering will or won't change his behavior or not until it's been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 I've seen some neutered dogs have a complete turn around. My mom's GSD was neutered at 18 months and his marking stopped, his aggressive side was turned way down, and he stopped trying to hump every dog he met. However people probably will still ask you to breed him. I get it with my pure BC female all the time. She gets propositions for mating with other dogs and then when they find out I spayed her they want to know why since she would make such cute "well behaved" puppies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Peeing while walking may be because he actually needs to empty his bladder but for some reason perceives that stopping to do so would be "bad" so he does it on the fly. It isn't marking behavior, but it is common submissive behavior, however I think you would know if that was the case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Castrated pet dogs can be confused by intact males and will try to mount them. Intact male sheepdogs can be confused by castrated pet sheepdogs and may try to mount them at the lift, where the castrated dog is the set out dog. Source: My dogs, so many times. OP, I neutered my youngest just after his second birthday and while better, he is still a pisser. He acts the same, works the same. I guess the only difference is he's much nicer to look at from behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 My male Papillon was a super-sexed puppy, so infatuated with females that for a period of time (5-8 months) he spontaneously urinated if he looked at one. He didn't squat or lift his leg he just peed a little. It was awesome (not). I had to put a belly band on him if I took him anywhere indoors. Super annoying. He did outgrow that peeing thing but continued to be an idiot around girls. Because he is a performance sport dog I waited until he was nearly 2 before I did the big snip and he is so much better. Not a Border Collie, but he is still keen, smart, driven and still looks at girls, but doesn't turn into a teeth chattering drooling peeing moron if one is around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 ...I guess the only difference is he's much nicer to look at from behind. Roughies cover it almost as well as pants would Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfreda Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Intact male sheepdogs can be confused by castrated pet sheepdogs and may try to mount them at the lift, where the castrated dog is the set out dog. Source: My dogs, so many times. OP, I neutered my youngest just after his second birthday and while better, he is still a pisser. He acts the same, works the same. I guess the only difference is he's much nicer to look at from behind. Haha! Kristi- I remember your other post about "No More knick-knacks for you!" which was hilarious- but are you saying that neutering did NOT help with *focus* on the trail field? I ask because that might be one reason I would consider it, focus over pee-smelling. Kingfisher I don't have anything to add, except that I feel you- I guess I've decided to only make an issue about peeing on human items and/or in "garden" centers, which Otto has sometimes mistaken for "outside." On-leash if he doesn't interfere with my pace, and the target is appropriate, I don't really care. My guy tends to be submissive. He doesn't hump others but neutered males do posture and sometimes "pick on" him. I might consider neutering if that goes on much more. But lately he does seem to be getting better at either avoiding issues, or having more, um... presence. So... we'll see Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 My male Papillon was a super-sexed puppy, so infatuated with females that for a period of time (5-8 months) he spontaneously urinated if he looked at one. He didn't squat or lift his leg he just peed a little. It was awesome (not). I had to put a belly band on him if I took him anywhere indoors. Super annoying. That's pretty much what Keeper does! It's not leg lifting, but it's pretty clearly sexual in nature. Just spontaneous urine after the scent of a female. I think the pee waddles are related to female urine rather than male urine. I can't guarantee it, but it's just a gut feeling. I guess the only difference is he's much nicer to look at from behind. Aww, I find his dangly bits endearing. He smooshes them in my face so often than I had to come to like them. Trooper had the cutest wittle testicles. I'm 99% sure he was sterile, his balls were literally a quarter of the size of Keeper's. All his fevers must have cooked them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 He smooshes them in my face so often than I had to come to like them. Aed sitting on anyones face usually results in screaming and laughing and a lot of face licking followed by more screaming and laughing because the face licking will not stop. I would be thrilled not to ever have to smell his balls again in my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Keeper sprawls out spread eagle next to me on the couch every night. And I always get the manly end. He's plenty rough coated that you don't see them....until "hello!" they're right in your face. The position du jour.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Haha! Kristi- I remember your other post about "No More knick-knacks for you!" which was hilarious- but are you saying that neutering did NOT help with *focus* on the trail field? I ask because that might be one reason I would consider it, focus over pee-smelling. Yes, the knick knack removal totally helped! Had them removed the week before The Bluegrass and he has not stopped to chat with a set out dog since. He even won a Nursery buckle at the Bluegrass. Yay for no knick knacks! When I said that he works the same, I was referring to everywhere else. He has not lost any power/strength/courage or whatever since being neutered. He has just stopped visiting the set out dog. And in Bar's defence, he only did that twice, but it was two too many times for me. I don't know if this link will work for you, or if you're even concerned about the whole nuts-neutering-power thing, but if you are, go to about 5:39 of this video to get one guy's opinion on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Keeper sprawls out spread eagle next to me on the couch every night. And I always get the manly end. He's plenty rough coated that you don't see them....until "hello!" they're right in your face. The position du jour.... image.jpg Oh Keeper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfreda Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Yes, the knick knack removal totally helped! Had them removed the week before The Bluegrass and he has not stopped to chat with a set out dog since. He even won a Nursery buckle at the Bluegrass. Yay for no knick knacks! When I said that he works the same, I was referring to everywhere else. He has not lost any power/strength/courage or whatever since being neutered. He has just stopped visiting the set out dog. And in Bar's defence, he only did that twice, but it was two too many times for me. I don't know if this link will work for you, or if you're even concerned about the whole nuts-neutering-power thing, but if you are, go to about 5:39 of this video to get one guy's opinion on the matter. Thanks for the link Kristi! That was interesting. Congrats on Bar's nursery buckle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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