Smooth vs. Rough coat?

[stockdogranch]

My original comment had to do with the OP saying "I'm a breeder and will be breeding to a smooth coat for the first time..." Apparently that part of the original post has been removed. So, my response had little to do with the smooth coated part, but rather the breeding part. For those on here who know me, all of mine are smooth or mostly smooth,

A

[GentleLake]

Yes. I also see that the first post has had the breeder stuff edited out.

[StephaaRas]

Yes, I removed the breeder part because I figured the popcorn thing was a sort of way of saying I shouldn't be breeding, or something of the sort.

I edited a lot of the first post to try to make it sound somewhat more friendly to take away from remarks that seemed inappropriate or rude.

[Gideon's girl]

My original comment had to do with the OP saying "I'm a breeder and will be breeding to a smooth coat for the first time..." Apparently that part of the original post has been removed. So, my response had little to do with the smooth coated part, but rather the breeding part. For those on here who know me, all of mine are smooth or mostly smooth,

A

I thought the popcorn remark was because of the comment telling people how they are allowed to respond. Silly me.

[Alchemist]

I used to prefer the traditional black and white rough coat, with pricked ears. I have one - he's a bur magnet, a magnet for dead leaves, a magnet for muddy wet feet, and a magnet for briars.

 

I also have two smooth-coated dogs. MUCH easier to clean up.

 

I had the rough-coated dog and one of the smoothies at the 2013 Finals (the one where it wasn't SUPPOSED to rain, but a weather front got stalled, and the world became a mud bath of epic proportions). My car broke down and I didn't have a place to stash the dogs out of the weather. They were totally COVERED in mud by the end of it. Back at the motel room that evening, it took a good hour to get the mud off the rough-coated dog in the tub, using the water bucket from my crate. And in just the few moments before I got him into the tub, he converted the bathroom in the motel into the scene of a mudfight. The smoothie? Five minutes of sluicing and he was good to go.

 

Sure, I've had people ask me what breed the dogs are. And they're often surprised to hear that Spain (who looks part greyhound) or Ross (the small tri smooth male) are Border collies. It gives me the chance to explain that they're all working-bred, and that working-bred dogs are bred for WORKING ability, and looks are incidental. Never had anyone try to argue with me, but if they did, I'd just shrug and move on - life's too short to argue with know-it-alls.

[GentleLake]

I interpreted the popcorn comment as being an indication that Stockdogranch was preparing to sit back and enjoy the show that was coming.

[NCStarkey]

Hello StephaaRas,

 

I'm glad that you realize that others on this forum might feel that you probably shouldn't be breeding Border Collies, and I hope that you have read the "Read This First" post that was mentioned in an earlier post. As someone who has had working Border Collies for twenty-five years and just produced my very first litter, I would be among those who question your qualifications for breeding Border Collies. However, perhaps with more information about your criteria for selecting the dogs that you breed and your goals for breeding, I might feel differently.

In post #6, you wrote: "I myself am a breeder, and I breed for working ability."

Could you please share with us how you assess the working ability in your dogs?

Regards,

nancy

 

 

Yes, I removed the breeder part because I figured the popcorn thing was a sort of way of saying I shouldn't be breeding, or something of the sort.

I edited a lot of the first post to try to make it sound somewhat more friendly to take away from remarks that seemed inappropriate or rude.

 

[stockdogranch]

GentleLake--exactly

A

[Tess's Girl]

I have a smooth and a rough coat. I rarely get comments about whether or not Crow (the smooth) is a BC.

 

Tess is sable and most people ask me if she's a collie (or "Lassie collie" as most people say) mix. Which is understandable. I can see why they think that. I tend to get more people INSISTING that Tess is anxious because she was abused at some point in her life. I just say no that's not it and go on.

[CSW]

The trainer at my puppy's class made a similar comment about the shape of my pups head and her prick ears. My pup is a med coat black tri with prick ears. She does have strong tan markings on her face. When I explained about the variety of ears I mentioned she was also ABCA registered. She then implied I had bought her over the internet! (Nope, visited small breeder 3 times). Later I emailed her the link to the Border Collie Museum that has photos of lots of different BCs and also sent her photos of Star's "parents" and "grandparents." I remember once I thought a person had a mixed cocker spaniel only to be corrected it was a Clumber Spaniel (which I had ever heard of). Since then I am careful to ask what breed a dog is if I am wondering at all or trying to make conversation so I don't accidentally insult a dog's breeding.

[StephaaRas]

I don't feel the need to prove myself to a bunch of people who seem to find belittling somebody that they don't even know enjoyable. I was not rude to anybody but yet i am receiving rude replies.

Some of you say you don't have time for know-it-alls but then you act like them yourselves.

I joined these boards in hopes of finding friendly people with similar interests but instead found rude people who think they are the end all of the breed.

 

But to answer your question, I have lived on a farm my whole life. I have worked my dogs with ducks when very young, goats, sheep, and cattle. I have even worked on horseback with them. I have had their abilities assessed by trainers. I myself am a dog trainer (not for herding purposes) but I train agility, and frisbee dogs. I have been in connections with breeders of other dog breeds that have been breeding for 30+ years. I have received tips from them for years before I dared breed on my own. All of my dogs are vet checked for their hips, eyes, etc. I don't just breed to breed.

 

This thread was not made as a matter of my breeding. It was made simply to gather opinions of what people thought of smooth/rough coats, and the benefits and whatnot of either to people's opinions.

 

Now that I know these forums are in fact not friendly people, thanks to those of you who actually related to the topic and were nice.

[mum24dog]

Can’t vouch for the site, but it says this:

 

One dog of the pure Hall strain became well known as being beautifully built and an incredible worker was owned by Tom Bentley. Known only by the name of "Bentley's Dog," he was used widely used as a stud to retain the outstanding qualities he possessed. It is said then that the white blaze on the forehead of all Australian Cattle Dogs is the "Bentley Mark" and can be attributed to Tom Bentley's dog.

 

From: http://thinkytees.com/CattleDogHistory.html

Thank you.

[Diana A]

People can be stupid. I've had multiple occasions of people telling me the dog in my profile pic is a mixed breed because she doesn't have the traditional white collar and blaze.

[NCStarkey]

Hello again StephaaRas,

 

Thank you for the additional information about your dogs.

 

Regards,

nancy

 

 

But to answer your question, I have lived on a farm my whole life. I have worked my dogs with ducks when very young, goats, sheep, and cattle. I have even worked on horseback with them. I have had their abilities assessed by trainers. I myself am a dog trainer (not for herding purposes) but I train agility, and frisbee dogs. I have been in connections with breeders of other dog breeds that have been breeding for 30+ years. I have received tips from them for years before I dared breed on my own. All of my dogs are vet checked for their hips, eyes, etc. I don't just breed to breed.

[StephaaRas]

You're welcome.

[GentleLake]

I don't feel the need to prove myself to a bunch of people who seem to find belittling somebody that they don't even know enjoyable. I was not rude to anybody but yet i am receiving rude replies.

 

I didn't see any comments I thought were rude. Well, maybe except your first one after the popcorn one.

 

If that's what you're referring to as rude, I simply thought it was a comment on the discussion the poster expected to ensue.

 

As a newcomer to the Boards, it's only reasonable to expect questions to be asked about your breeding philosophy because people here don't know you.

 

As an aside, it's kind of hard to expect people to be able to follow a thread if the original post has significant content removed. Not being snarky, but just sayin' . . .

[StephaaRas]

Yes, I am referring to the first comment as I thought it was a stab at me, but I can see it the other way too now, and if that's how it was meant than I apologize.

I know I should expect people to question my ways, but it seemed more like bashing. I also apologize if I took that wrong.

[Bogwoppit]

StephaaRas, I really don't think anyone meant to hurt your feelings at all, just find out who you "are".

 

If you have a look through some of the archives of the board, you'll see that not every breeder who turns up here has the breed's best interest in mind. I would imagine it has a very wearing effect on the users of the board after a few years. Perhaps a little tiredness on both sides, eh?

Perhaps look on it less as justifying yourself, and more as showing folks there's another good person out there that shares their beliefs.

About the original topic, if someone is telling you about your dog, or how it should look, or judging on coat.. This person is perhaps not worth investing time into, ey? Sometimes winning isn't about educating someone or even a moral victory, it's about saving your own time and emotion from being wasted.

[StephaaRas]

I agree with you completely.

I have not been through the archives, and was unaware there were a lot of breeders with bad intentions, so I apologize again for taking it personally.

[Bogwoppit]

I'm really glad you're not put off.

 

That said, I'm ashamed of all of you: This topic is sorely lacking in pictures!

I need my piccy fix before I can form opinions!

[Crawford Dogs]

Whether someone likes smooth vs rough coat is personal preference and I tend to ignore the strange things people tend to assume about dog breeds. For example, Rose is "clearly" a setter as she's mostly white (nope, just a badly bred shelter BC) and Loki is an "aussie/poodle" as he has good bone, is curly, and is red.

As for me, I personally prefer rough coats because they happily sleep in snowbanks during Iowa winters instead of shivering while wearing booties and coats (yes, I know several BC's that wear booties and coats). Also a lot of puppy mills in my area turn out large quantities of smoothies so I tend to associate smoothies with poor breeding practices (yes, I know there are many good smooth BC breeders). One day I may have a smoothie but she probably won't come from puppy mill infested Iowa (we're 2nd in the nation- Hooray!?) and I hope her breeder is someone with integrity that I can learn from.

 

Bethany, Rose (The Blind Blonde), and Loki (Aspiring Sheepdog)

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm just wondering what everyone's general opinions are on the smooth border collie vs. the rough border collie.

 

Too many people have told me that my dog is in fact not actually a Border Collie. It gets a bit frustrating that people believe they can only have one coat type.

I've also been told by numerous people that they'd never purchase a BC puppy with short hair, because then it clearly wasn't a purebred.

 

Does anyone else get these things said about their smooth coat?

 

 

Okay, so apparently I missed some kerfuffle due to edited posts on this thread? Well, then I'll just reply to the bits I can see!

 

I live out west in farm/ranch country and trial in CA/OR/ID where we see easily as many smooth coats as rough, all good workers, so my opinion of rough vs smooth is, "Whatever floats your boat."

 

I can't recall anyone suggesting my smooth-coats are anything but border collies. It may have happened, but its infrequent because people out here do have smooth coats, especially the cowdog bred BCs. However, having had both types of coats, I have to say that I do love the tidiness of the smooths! Dirt falls off or is easily brushed off, burrs only rarely stick in ruffs or rumps, its a lot easier to find and comb out foxtails, snow doesn't gob up as bad, and they always look shiny and neat. They're nice to have around.

 

But ... I also love the look of a classic rough coat - plus they are awfully nice to pet. We have an Australian shepherd as well, so I get my furry fix, but I'll have a rough coated dog again, if chance permits. It might mean a little more brushing or carpet-vacuuming, but that's okay.

 

How's that for a non-helpful answer?

 

~ Gloria

[Crawford Dogs]

Gloria, you make me smile. Love your interesting take on life.

[Maralynn]

Interesting comment re: cold weather and coat length. Kipp was smooth but grew a thick undercoat and never seemed to be bothered by cold weather. Kenzi is rough coated but I've put a coat on her before because she is skinny and in the past her undercoat has just been so/so. Kolt is smooth and has next to no undercoat but he's only 8 m/o. So far he hasn't appeared t one bothered by cold but it's only been down to about 20 so far this season

[Alchemist]

I don't feel the need to prove myself to a bunch of people who seem to find belittling somebody that they don't even know enjoyable. I was not rude to anybody but yet i am receiving rude replies.

Some of you say you don't have time for know-it-alls but then you act like them yourselves.

I joined these boards in hopes of finding friendly people with similar interests but instead found rude people who think they are the end all of the breed.

 

...

 

Now that I know these forums are in fact not friendly people, thanks to those of you who actually related to the topic and were nice.

 

Um... I'm confused. Really and truly. If you would care to read my post (#30) again, I'd appreciate your explaining to me how you thought I was being rude to you? Or how you felt I was acting like a know-it-all?

 

I thought I was simply explaining why I wouldn't worry about individuals who didn't want to be educated about the fact that yes, smooth-coated Border collies exist.