Is there a noticeable difference in personality/temperament between BC's from cattle lines vs. sheep lines?

[stockdogranch]

I've got a house full of petite girls and one petite male who all work cattle. I think it depends on the person; yes--I know of some who always ask for the biggest male in the litter. But I see all sizes working cattle, and I think a quick little thing can get out of trouble faster. I see them get in, take that heel, and get out before the calf knows what hit.

 

As for, will the border collie become a cowdog in the US? I actually think the working border collie in the US has been a cowdog for some time. You just don't see them or hear of them because they are not out there trialling, but are at home working every day. Someone recently was talking about numbers of dogs registered with the ABCA and how many are not known trial dogs, but just working dogs, and the majority of them are working cattle. Not sure how true that may be, but just given the numbers of ranchers who show up every year at Red Bluff seriously looking for a dog, and speak of having used dogs for many years, makes me think there may be something to this.

A

[juliepoudrier]

My small dogs have worked cattle just fine. I agree with Emily in that I doubt a size difference of 20 lbs makes a great deal of difference when moving stock. My smallest dog is the one who can and will move anything. Predators can certainly be much smaller than their prey and still survive.

 

Anna, you are probably right regarding the use of border collies by cattle ranchers. In answer to Pam's question, I guess it depends on whether you think of border collies as working only sheep or as working livestock in general. Naturally because the UK has larger numbers of sheep one would equate border collie with sheepdog, and in fact as you've (meaning Pam here) noted many times even the general public there thinks of border collies when the term working sheepdog is used.

 

But I think if you were to ask farmers in the UK if border collies are suitable only for sheep, the answer would be no, and in fact, I think they are used on cattle there as well. The cattle industry just isn't nearly as big as the sheep industry there and nowhere near as big as it is in the US.

 

I may just pose that question to some of my UK shepherding friends and see what they say. I'll report back.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

Julie--yes, I know they have used them for cattle over there. For many years I got my training calves from an old Scotsman down the road; he's 82 now, I believe. Anyway, he would always tell me that when he was a wee boy, his dad would use the dogs on both sheep and cattle for "the co-operative" (imagine that said with a thick accent). And when he came here to the US, he worked at dairies and always used dogs.

A

[Maralynn]

Kipp and now Kolt came from parents who worked both sheep and cattle. It would seem to me that most well bred dogs should be able to handle both even though they may prefer one over the other or have tendancies that make training for one or the other a bit easier.

[Maxi]

But I think if you were to ask farmers in the UK if border collies are suitable only for sheep, the answer would be no, and in fact, I think they are used on cattle there as well. The cattle industry just isn't nearly as big as the sheep industry there and nowhere near as big as it is in the US.

 

 

Yep, as far as I am aware there are definitely some farmers who use their dogs on both cows and sheep in the UK..and some of these also trial to a high standard, but as others have stated, it is much less common over here than in the US.

 

YMMV

[Sue R]

My Celt, who is from a sheepdog background, does a great job working our dog-broke and largely docile Angus herd. He's got the courage he needs and the sensitivity that new mothers appreciate. His lovely outrun works very well on the cattle as they tend to spread out when grazing and a dog without an outrun just doesn't do so well.

 

My Dan, who is from cattledog lines, has grits and guts galore, a "make my day" attitude, the ability to go head-to-head with half-a-dozen full-grown cows and look them straight in the eye and not flinch. He does not have sensitivity on cattle except on small calves, where he is very good at reading and reacting. He can bully adult sheep but is careful with little lambs. He has no good outrun so he isn't my gathering dog but he's got push to spare and works small calves where Celt doesn't. Many of his problems are due to a bad training start (five months of training that just wasn't suitable for him) and a lack on my part of understanding and being ready to work with him productively myself.

 

Between the two, we have all we need for just about any job but I wish I had two dogs like Celt but with Dan's self-confidence.

 

That said, as pets, they are both as good as could be in the house and when traveling. Celt doesn't care for strangers (again, a lack of self-confidence) and Dan loves everyone, especially children (which is the opposite of Celt). Dan is a little harder to discourage and a little pushier - is that the cattledog in him or just Dan?

[toney]

To chime in about my cattle dog ( who also works sheep, from Anna Guthrie's lines)she is not very big either. As a matter of fact people tease me about my " border-hound" because she's fine boned, thin and as fast as the greyhound they are comparing her with when she starts her outrun.

[geonni banner]

And if so, should it still be called a border collie?

Why wouldn't it be? Just another variable. The breed is multi-talented and has many styles of working. I've heard people here say they use Border Collies on hogs, goats, poultry and of course, sheep and cattle. I can't think how any of that would make them something other than a Border Collie.

[mum24dog]

My small dogs have worked cattle just fine. I agree with Emily in that I doubt a size difference of 20 lbs makes a great deal of difference when moving stock. My smallest dog is the one who can and will move anything. Predators can certainly be much smaller than their prey and still survive.

 

Anna, you are probably right regarding the use of border collies by cattle ranchers. In answer to Pam's question, I guess it depends on whether you think of border collies as working only sheep or as working livestock in general. Naturally because the UK has larger numbers of sheep one would equate border collie with sheepdog, and in fact as you've (meaning Pam here) noted many times even the general public there thinks of border collies when the term working sheepdog is used.

 

But I think if you were to ask farmers in the UK if border collies are suitable only for sheep, the answer would be no, and in fact, I think they are used on cattle there as well. The cattle industry just isn't nearly as big as the sheep industry there and nowhere near as big as it is in the US.

 

I may just pose that question to some of my UK shepherding friends and see what they say. I'll report back.

 

J.

 

I was thinking more in terms of the different working styles others were talking about. A Welsh Sheep Dog works sheep but differently from a Border Collie and isn't called by the same name by those who care about such things. If dogs are being bred specifically to work in way that is needed to work cattle rather than sheep, at what point should it be called something different?

 

I'm not talking about dual purpose dogs, rather the type of cattle dog that would have trouble working sheep because breeding choices have produced a different type of dog. I would guess that the dual purpose dog is the norm here for the reason you give. Most cattle here don't seem to need a lot of working.

 

What is it about the Border Collie that people on here are so determined to preserve? They are the archetypal sheep dog after all. My question is motivated by the importance placed on the name on this board.

[mum24dog]

Why wouldn't it be? Just another variable. The breed is multi-talented and has many styles of working. I've heard people here say they use Border Collies on hogs, goats, poultry and of course, sheep and cattle. I can't think how any of that would make them something other than a Border Collie.

 

But they aren't all multi talented as a result of being bred away from their original skill set, according to what some have said.

[Sue R]

To me, the ideal Border Collie is a dog that can work any kind of stock - cattle, sheep, ducks, turkeys, geese, whatever is placed before it, simply because the ideal dog can *read* its stock and therefore know how to respond instinctively. That said, there are dogs that will be better on lighter stock or heavier stock, some more comfortable on cattle and some more comfortable on sheep.

 

Within limits, a *good* dog can work stock, period. (I say "within limits" because I don't include very rank stock within the parameters that I would consider.) I think this is why the top trial dogs, the ones that can do well out West on the big, assertive range ewes and also just as well on the light, Eastern farm lambs, are (to me) the best of the best - with a skill set that encompasses a lot of variety in stock, situation, job, and conditions.

 

And some dogs (every dog?) will have its strengths and weaknesses. I believe the inherent variety in the breed is one of its strong points. There is a dog for every situation but dogs should be able to manage a variety of situations.

 

JMO.

[stockdogranch]

^^What she said!

A

[juliepoudrier]

I think most people here would say that border collies are the archetypal stockdog.

 

J.

 

What is it about the Border Collie that people on here are so determined to preserve? They are the archetypal sheep dog after all. My question is motivated by the importance placed on the name on this board.

[Sue R]

I think most people here would say that border collies are the archetypal stockdog.

 

J.

Yes!

[Debbie Meier]

2 weeks ago someone dropped in to look at pups and had their agility dog along who is from working lines. Compared to our dogs, that dog was fine boned and slight framed, but I don't think of our dogs as being excessively thick.

 

To me they are proportionate. We want enough body and bone so as the dog does not appear frail but not so much that they look like a lug when they travel. We have only produced one 65 pounder that we know of, he works on a ranch in Colorado. He was a huge puppy and grew up to be a thick dog. He is not as athletic as the second dog we sold them who is just as tall but has a leaner build, but yet he is not slight in frame like the agility dog I mentioned above. Maybe it's just that ours have quite a bit more muscle.

[Dragoon 45]

I grew up on a cattle operation. I never noticed any thing that would differentiate a BC bred for cattle work vs a BC bred for working other types of livestock other than size. In the area I grew up in you would not see a dog working cattle that was less than 50 lbs and most of the dogs were 60+lbs in size. Few people had ever heard of anything besides BC's and Collies for stock work back then. And while we had some excellent dogs over the years mostly B/C's, we also had some Collies. I have to say the best dog we had was an old time Scotch Collie, not a lassie collie. Big dog, probably closing in on 90lbs, but he could put the rankest stock anywhere you wanted them. He could work cattle no other dog could. That dog would not back down from a tornado. Yet you could go out to the barn in the morning to feed and find the barn cats curled up on top him sleeping.

 

To me it is a great pity, those old time Scotch Collies have disappeared. I know there are a few dedicated breeders trying to bring them back, but none of their dogs I have seen match those old collies of my youth. I often times wonder if not more than a few of them ended up being registered as BC's by merit.

 

My current R/W BC reminds me of him in many ways, except for size. It is an attitude that cattle dogs seem to have. I can't point to any one trait and say that is what makes them different from other dogs. It's not their willingness to use teeth or their eye, it is just something that once you get to regularly work with a good cattle dog you will recognize that aura, if you will, in other dogs.

 

One last thing I will say, I have yet to see an AKC bred B/C that I would even contemplate starting on cattle. While most are nice dogs, not their fault they were bred the way they were, everyone of them I have seen seems lacking that indescribable something that makes a good cattle dog.